Proof that the Bible is ‘Corrupted’

format_quote Originally Posted by glo

Hi duskiness

Bless you!
That's exactly how I feel.

Actually, I am always a little suspicious when people display such a strong desire to undermine and destroy other people's faiths, beliefs, and holy books.
I mean, why do people do that???
I wonder if for some there is an element of needing to fight against other faiths in order to strengthen their own faith.

Sharing your faith with people is one thing, trying to undermine and ridicule their faith is another!

Besides, as Trumble is always very good at pointing out, these arguments are rather pointless, and never provide the 'proof' they claim to provide.

Peace.

Peace to you Glo:

I agree in that I dislike out and out bible bashing, or faith bashing. But, for many of us when trying to show errors/additions to biblical script, it is necessary to provide the verses to support the claim. These, at least for us, are clear proofs that the biblical texts seen today are erroneous and therefore not the word of God.

Duskiness pointed out a few erros known and discovered....additions not in the oldest (not the original) manuscripts. For me, only these few things mentioned in her post, (and there are far more), is enough proof the text became corrupted over time and therefore the word of God has been destroyed. Whether this was intentional or copiest erros, translation errors, etc., makes absolutely no difference. The fact remains the bible contains additions by man and this leads to the obvious question: If these additions are being found and admitted to, how many more are there that you don't know.

Many Christians who truly believe their faith is correct will try to provide proofs to us from biblical text to support their claim. However, many Muslims can use their same source of "proofs" to refute what they claim. We don't have the luxury of using our Holy book because Christians don't believe anything about it and using it would be pointless.

So, I think sometimes it seems as though the bible is being bashed, when in fact we are only trying to show the problem we have with the texts provided to us as "proofs".

I hope this makes sense.

Personally, I love comparative religion, and I learn a lot when discussing it. There is a Jewish thread here that gave tons of information about Judaism that I wasn't aware of and thoroughly enjoyed reading the posts. It removed a lot of misconceptions I had about it. The thread was kept so respectful and the person answering the questions was so patient and thorough, it was impressive. That thread is the perfect example of how I, personally, prefer to discuss different faiths. Not as a tool to revert or convert but as a tool to teach us to be tolerant and to realize the numerous similarities rather than focus on the few differences.

It is only God that can guide others to truth. All we can do is provide the information and proofs, the rest is between the individual that hears it and God.

Take care and peace to you,

Hana

format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku

Peace to you Glo:

Many Christians who truly believe their faith is correct will try to provide proofs to us from biblical text to support their claim. However, many Muslims can use their same source of "proofs" to refute what they claim. We don't have the luxury of using our Holy book because Christians don't believe anything about it and using it would be pointless.

So, I think sometimes it seems as though the bible is being bashed, when in fact we are only trying to show the problem we have with the texts provided to us as "proofs".

And peace to you, Hana

I might agree with you, if this thread was responding to a Christian making claims about the Bible, which you - from an Islamic point-of-view disgree with. That's what comparative religion is about, and that's what scolars and theologians have debated about for hundreds of years.
As it happens, that is not what this thread is about.
This thread is purely designed to disregard the Bible:

Well the reason I decided to make this topic is because whenever Muslims tell Christians that the Bible is changed, altered etc. Christians always demand proof, well here is the proof we've been waiting for:

Don't get me wrong.
I know Muslims don't believe the Bible to be the true word from God. They wouldn't, because if they did, they wouldn't be Muslims!
I understand that Muslims try to compare Bible and Qu'ran and end up confused. That's because - as Joe so patiently never tires to tell people - the two books are so different and never claimed to be anything else.

My personal question is 'Why feel so determined to undermine the Bible?'
As Trumble points out, there is no proof , not for one side or the other. There is no proof, and there never will be!
My conviction that the Qu'ran has no authority lies within my holy book.
Your conviction that the Bible has no authority lies within your holy book.

Why struggle? Why not call a peace?
You follow your book, I follow mine ... it seems so easy!

Personally, I love comparative religion, and I learn a lot when discussing it. There is a Jewish thread here that gave tons of information about Judaism that I wasn't aware of and thoroughly enjoyed reading the posts. It removed a lot of misconceptions I had about it. The thread was kept so respectful and the person answering the questions was so patient and thorough, it was impressive. That thread is the perfect example of how I, personally, prefer to discuss different faiths. Not as a tool to revert or convert but as a tool to teach us to be tolerant and to realize the numerous similarities rather than focus on the few differences.

It is only God that can guide others to truth. All we can do is provide the information and proofs, the rest is between the individual that hears it and God.

Amen to that!

peace, sister

format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98

I am already on that path, thank you

Why do you interject every post with these severely paraphasic neologisms? I don't think anyone addressed you (Joe) in this thread at all ... every day you remind me of Waldo more than the day before... I am not sure if you are being comical or in dire need of some counseling.…Glad to read you are on the right path ... more power to you....
as for the rest... How about we teach each other of our perspective religion cordially ... there is really no need for this my book is superior to your book as I have read it and have witnesses.... it is childish ... it doesn't address the particular content with which you want an explanation or a serious deep examination, it is myopic and subjective, and not conducive at least in my book to strong debates or interfaith dialogue ... we can go on practicing our faiths without resorting to tantrums.....
peace

Hi Ambrosia

Joe does have a point, in the sense that we all are convinced that we are walking the path of truth ... no matter which religion we do or don't subscribe to.

All we can do, is to agree to disagree, I guess!

peace.

I don't see why either party has to resort to attacks? we can present points like a history book... with facts... not subjective views.... you bring something to the table... we bring something to the table... we discuss it... I see a thousand website... in fact I almost can't put in any search engine the word Islam or even Jilbab and not find something deragtory and down right disgusting written of Muslims our prophet or our religion... I can't go fighting with everyone... it is futile... it is really NOT PRODUCTIVE.... if a person thinks a particular way there is nothing you can do to get them to change... It is proven in psychology... people who do something habitually are bound to do it forever... a good example of that is any methadone clinic... only 5% of the people who actually seek treatment recover.... that is the honest truth to God... they are just there because it is a govt. subsidized program that provides them with a heroin analogue so they don't have to get it on the streets and actually pay for it... still some of them end up just putting it in their mouth, regurgitating it to sell it again on the streets... so more of your and my tax money has to go to test them for methadone metabolite hoping they would just stick to the program so we can have a tally of what is going on out there... if it seems like I am digressing I am really not... the point is... you do something for a long time... you are convinced it is right for you... you'll probably end up doing it for the rest of your life... .. So only civilized solution I can think of, is to bring a point by point debate and we can agree or disagree or write, why or why not.... correct me if I am wrong but have you converted to Islam from what was written here? has anyone converted to christinaity from the points you bring? if the answer is NO to both... then what we are doing here is not working... we have to find a method that does work... and if we can't convince each other, yet end up seeing each other's posts every day least we can do is be civilized about what we write.....I always like to think of posters as actual people I'd meet... do I want to get contentious with someone just because they sport a different outfit or worship differently than I do? it is ridiculous right? you don't walk around hateful to people all day do you? that is my view on the matter anyhow... with that being said it is my sincere hope that we have a civilized interfaith dialogue
peace

I am already on that path, thank you

This fella is a typical uninterested bloke who just wants to play cat n mouse.

Quote:
ive read parts of the old testement and i'm not sure if you pretty much treat prophets as being playboys as something particularly respectful.... and really the contradictions present in the bible just make the mind boggle as 2 how it could be anywhere near a divine book (in its current shape)...

The Bible tells the truth about the human condition, sinfulness. It does not attempt to hide the flaws of its characters, but makes them public as an example of the cost of sin on the individual and on society. It does not glamorize sin in any way.

Quote:
and anyway.. the bible is just a collection of chaptes written by humans, there's chapter paul, mark, luke... but where's Allah's chapter

Since Muhammed was supposidly unlettered, the Quran was written by someone other than the person claiming to have received the revelation.

Let's be honest here, Would you trust your kids to live with such prophets if they where as the bible describes??

The fact is, those accounts are not true and fabricated, and anyway, how could christians be fooled into believing what the enemies of hteir own prophet have to say about other messengers and prophets, the Jews label jesus as a b*astard and his mother a wh*re and yet they're duped into listening to what htey have to say about the messengers? That's what the old testement pretty much is.

If the prophts where as you described, then they aren't righteous people at all, and what makes them so special, to commit things like incest and adultery and many other gruesome crimes!

The quran presents the truth about the prophets (how is it the truth? based on statistical evidence and deduction), and NO other religion has respect for the prophets as much as we do, including Jesus PBUH and his blessed mother, read his story in chapter of Mary for example.

our God doesn't write books...


Sometimes it seems this forum should be renamed from"comparative religion" into "lets prove that christianity is wrong". What's the aim of searching web for article that "prove" how silly christianity is, and copy-pasting them here? Do you understand us better, know more about different faith?

We do the pasting, and then we both do the debating

To be quite frank, it's simple, the fact that your bible was writtenby humans, the fact that the bible is more about what paul thinks than it is about what was revealed to jesus, is the very reasonw hy Michael heart for example ranked paul higher than jesus in his "100 men" book.

Or maybe it helps you to understand why there are people who stick to christianity and don't convert to islam? For you answer is simple, isn't it? We are bunch of idiots who don't know history, don't read bible and can't count to 3.

There's alot of people who do revert to Islam, others don't, but it's for a whole host of reasons, parents, laziness, not sincere in seraching for the truth

point is, there seems to be something fundamentally different, you seem to think that the messengers come with a message they don't follow themselves, and, god can contradict himself.

we're a bit more logical than that, the messengers are the best of creation because of the very fact they adhered to their message even though very few people followed them, and, by definition, "god" is not god if he's nto perfect. How could the god who created this complicated and advanced universe be a true god if he's comitting mistakes and contradictions in his revelations to mankind.

To compare you have to understand (or at least try to..). To understand others you have to try to see world through their lances.

you mean 'lenses'? (sorry srsly not trying 2b pedantic)..

Quote:
and anyway.. the bible is just a collection of chaptes written by humans, there's chapter paul, mark, luke... but where's Allah's chapter

Since Muhammed was supposidly unlettered, the Quran was written by someone other than the person claiming to have received the revelation.

The quran was revealed to Muhammad directly through gabriel who who memorised it, and his scribe (Ali, Zayd ibn thabit and a few others), would write it down after the revelation session was completed.

The question is, if you really believe that, prove it. And that's what it is, a miracle. Every prophet came with a miracle, the prophets biggest miracle was the quran.

This verse would be a pretty untrustworthy test of the Quran's divine origin for several reasons. There is no criteria provided by which the produced work can be evaluated, nor is there any qualifications given to the witnesses. I have read the entire Bible and much of the Quran. I find the Bible to be a superior piece of work, and I have many witnesses who agree. Therefore I would have to say the Bible has met the challenge of this verse and has won the challenge.

What you're reading is a translation of the quran, not the quran itself. And very few people will try to hide teh fact that the translation is AWFUL. Hence why we're commanded to learn quran in the arabic form.

The challenge is to bring about a single chapter like it in terms of linguistic style, and with some sort of beneficial meaning.

The people of quraysh who where the best in arabic pretty much in history, where dumbfounded because this style of arabic was completely knew to them, it was neither poetry nor prose, something unique which they where unable to match.

The challenge is open till the day of judgement.


finally, no1's replied to what i said in that post, it's teh crux of the matter, because baed on these miracles, we can mathematically prove that what's narrated about the propehts is the truth in the quran. Ofcourse you can't prove it historically becasue history was barely written, but its only when prophecies and things that are beyond human capabilties are done, only then we knwo that it could not have been Muhammad PBUh who wrote up the quran, and it must have been from Allah.

tc all the ebst

diss each other in a nice way...if u really want too...cuz ppl cant seem to stay away from it...

How could Moses (as) write about his own death , but not only his death but about his burial and grave in the torah?

G-d told Moshe how he was going to die. G-d is all knowing. Do you suggest that G-d does not have the power to see the future????

The 5th book of the Pentateuch, Deuteronomy is said to have been written by Moses (as) himself and is part of the Torah but it records info about Moses' (as) death, burial and grave:

And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. (Deuteronomy 34 : 5-7)

Your right... G-d told him what to write! Moshe did not make up the Torah. G-d did! You have no understanding of anything.

This is irrefutable internal proof that Moses did not write the Pentateuch, it is the work of a later hand. This is the same case with the book of Job:

After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. And so he died, old and full of years.(Job 42 : 16-17)

And similarly we read in the book of Joshua:

After these things, Joshua son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died at the age of a hundred and ten. And they buried him in the land of his inheritance, at Timnath Serah in the hill country of Ephraim, north of Mount Gaash. (Joshua 24 : 29-30)

Wow, Are you kidding? G-d told his messangers of there deaths. :rant:

Do not attack the Torah without proof or knowledge. Your ignorance and patheticness shows valiantly!!!!


I have one simple request for all members of this forum. Use your own knowledge. The copy and pasting of lies is a pathetic way to spread untruth. Either actually read the torah, or don't talk about it.

format_quote Originally Posted by glo

And peace to you, Hana

My personal question is 'Why feel so determined to undermine the Bible?'

Peace to you, Glo:

I don't think the main purpose of most is to undermine or bash the bible. However, as Muslims, some of us can be very enthusiastic about trying to show non muslims errors with the hopes they will understand and submit only to Allah, swt. Just as many Christians are concerned about our salvation and want us to see truth, we are also concerned and care about the salvation of non muslims and want them to see, what we believe to be, the true, uncorrupted words of God.

As Trumble points out, there is no proof , not for one side or the other. There is no proof, and there never will be!

See, Glo, the problem is that we do believe there are clear proofs in the inaccuracy of biblical text. These proofs are what led me and many other reverts to Islam. I've heard many christians say, "Oh, but they are just insignifcant, minor errors." For some of us, there is no such thing as errors to any degree in God's word. Errors, for whatever reason, means corrupted text.

For a Christian, they may choose to believe there are absolutely no errors in text, or understand errors do exist and accept it anyway.

My conviction that the Qu'ran has no authority lies within my holy book.
Your conviction that the Bible has no authority lies within your holy book.

This is the other problem. The Qur'an doesn't tell us the bible has no authority. It recognizes the Bible does still contain some words of God, however, our way of determining which text is not corrupt is by comparing it to the Qur'an. Where they are the same is the word of God, where they differ is not. (That's a very basic explanation, but I think you understand the Islamic belief about this. If not, please let me know and I will explain in further detail.)

And, the Bible doesn't say anything at all about the Qur'an. But, it does speak of another comforter that will come...and we believe this promised comforter is Prophet Muhammed, pbuh.

Why struggle? Why not call a peace?
You follow your book, I follow mine ... it seems so easy!

I agree, no need to struggle and argue....best to maintain peace and learn tolerance. As Prophet Muhammed, pbuh, said, "To you be your religion, to me be mine." We can teach other our beliefs and discuss them respectfully with the knowledge Allah, swt, will guide whom He wills.

With peace
Hana

Peace to you Doug:

Actually, it can't be referring to the Holy Spirit, because it says ANOTHER comforter. The Holy Spirit, according to biblical text, was already here, long before Jesus, pbuh.

So, this comforter (helper) would have to be one that hasn't been here yet.

With peace,
Hana

format_quote Originally Posted by dougmusr

In interpret the first Helper to be Christ Himself. Verse 17 makes it clear that the second helper or comforter is present externally while Christ is speaking, and will indwell them after He leaves. Verse 23 makes it clear that there will be an indwelling presence.

Peace Doug:

Can you elaborate on that. I'm not seeing what you're seeing. To me it clearly says ANOTHER comforter. It means a new one, one that hasn't been here but will come.

Peace,
Hana