The miracles of Jesus

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble

Buddhism includes teachings about death, certainly, but all those I am aware of do so in the context of death as being something not to fear, as part of the natural order of things. All things are born, inevitably decay, and inevitably die.

I am not aware of anything that talks of healing in the sense we have been talking about here, let alone "bringing breath back into a body", although I confess I am not familiar with the tantric works perhaps most likely to include such material. Can you specify which "teachings" you are referring to?

In the introduction to the book called the Tibetean book of Living and Dying by one of the Rinpoche, is it Sygolal his name, something like that. I also heard a talk by a person who told that within that same teaching is a story about a master of Buddist practise guiding another person through their death, in which the dying person got one bit wrong in relation to elements and was momentarily brought back to life and re-instructed as to the need to be correct for hereafter. But I am not entirely certain that the same book is the source of that part of what I have learned is taught within mainstream Buddhism.

My objection to these teachings as I have heard them, and read them; is that they have no account for/of Kafir; and are therefore extremely dangerous. Basically I firmly believe that while very many Buddhist teachings that are around are good at re-inforcing that we need not dwell in past suffering; they are wrong to teach that death is not to be feared.

Of course death is a matter which we must learn to gently accept, yet if we are not fearful of death, what will motivate us to avoid the paucity of behaviour of those who will not be saved?

Certainly even Jesus feared his experience upon the cross: why else was it that He called "Father why have you forsaken me?". He teaches us by the miracle of His resurrection that in gentle acceptance of that which we most of all fear are we saved.

mu'asalam

just curious - are miracles really relevant in order to "prove" the validity of a religion? (which of course, is a subject that cannot be proven).

format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs

just curious - are miracles really relevant in order to "prove" the validity of a religion? (which of course, is a subject that cannot be proven).

I've never thought about it like that ...
you mean like "my religion is better than yours, because 'our guy' performed more or better miracles?"

I hope that's not the case.
As you say, it cannot be proven anyway ...

In relation to this thread, most of Jesus' miracles demonstrate the love and compassion he had for those in need around him. That's why I wanted to make this thread.

Anyway, the Gospel describes Jesus performing many miracles ... so this could be a long thread!! So sit back and hold on tight ... it's gonna be a looooong ride ...

Peace.

Hi Glo,

I'm just thinking, in Islam we dont have as many miracles performed by God through Jesus as Christianity does (probably because in Jesus in christianity is much greater than that in Islam).

So maybe we could also include miracles by the other prophets in Islam in this thread? Because, in Islam, God does miracles, the prophets just mediate them sometimes.

Just an idea, i understand if you would rather just keep it about Jesus though.

format_quote Originally Posted by cheese

Hi Glo,

I'm just thinking, in Islam we dont have as many miracles performed by God through Jesus as Christianity does (probably because in Jesus in christianity is much greater than that in Islam).

So maybe we could also include miracles by the other prophets in Islam in this thread? Because, in Islam, God does miracles, the prophets just mediate them sometimes.

Just an idea, i understand if you would rather just keep it about Jesus though.

I don't mind, cheese.
After all our religions 'share' most prophets. And certainly Moses performed many miracles with God's will.
But there is also a thread on the miracles of Muhammed - so just decide which thread would be the better choice ...

Peace

I think this thread is better because, like you said, our religions do 'share' prophets.

But Glo i dont want to hijak your thread or anything, i mean its totally up to you, if you dont like the idea just say so :X

format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs

just curious - are miracles really relevant in order to "prove" the validity of a religion? (which of course, is a subject that cannot be proven).

miracles by definition are something that just cant be done... just to show us that the ones who came with the message isnt coming up with it from his own mind, because he's been given abilities that simply can't be done by any other human being in the same manner.

so yeh... Allah does send miracles with each prophet to serve as an 'absolute' proof to the people that its not some man made message the messenger is coming with.

as for Jesus, i think Muslims love him more than the Christians... Muslims just adore him even though he was only around for a short while. Michael heart even said that for christians... Paul has a greater influence on them than does Jesus (hence why he ranked paul higher than jesus in teh 100 greatest book of his)

salamz

Alaikumassalam,

It is a good question about whether a Religion needs Miracles to prove it.

The harsh reality is just that there are so many persons fallen into believing in black magic that there needed to be presented to such persons a thorough certainty that Allah's way has more power.

A miracle is by nature the work of any finer density material that is able to manifest in the coaser density material. Black magic is a mechanism that is similar but because it can be proven to be ultimately non-live sustaining, it can also be disproven. Whereas a true miracle is of a further higher density of matter in that which supports its existance: and is at all times life sustaining. The density at which matter was wrongly worked to form the few incidents of black magic from which all others are resultant, is the density at which only the Jinn or an Arch Angel can work. The Jinn are fallen to Earth so as to account all black magic to their/our own responsiblity so as that no Human, or even shaytan, ever need to accept the full derth of fault that such is. Thereby it is that even shaytan must fear the Jinn; whom are accounted readily through King Solomon. But that account need be remade within the manifestation of The Dajjal, since he it is who thwarted King Solomon's labour. Thereby it is needful that in this modern age a few more miracles can be called upon to sustain Human belief. In Brisbane there are many persons whom have almost no money whom are witness to such miracles, and they are orienting their minds almost instantly to Islam.

Miracles are very important. wasalam

Jesus heals a man with a withered hand.

Another time he went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, "Stand up in front of everyone."

Then Jesus asked them, "Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?" But they remained silent.

He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

(Mark 3: 1-6)

Alaikumassalam,

I like that miracle in which Jesus cured a blind man.
When he was asked how it could be he explained that the man was blind only so that another could see.

Wasalam

format_quote Originally Posted by Curaezipirid

Alaikumassalam,

I like that miracle in which Jesus cured a blind man.
When he was asked how it could be he explained that the man was blind only so that another could see.

Wasalam

There are several different accounts of Jesus restoring the sight of blind people in the New Testament:

They came to Bethsaida, and some people brought a blind man and begged Jesus to touch him. He took the blind man by the hand and led him outside the village. When he had spit on the man's eyes and put his hands on him, Jesus asked, "Do you see anything?"

He looked up and said, "I see people; they look like trees walking around."

Once more Jesus put his hands on the man's eyes. Then his eyes were opened, his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly. Jesus sent him home, saying, "Don't go into the village."
(Mark 8:22-26)

As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him. Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"

The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"

Jesus stopped and called them. "What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.

"Lord," they answered, "we want our sight."

esus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.
(Matthew 20:29-34)

I guess you are referring to this one, although accourding to John Jesus did not say that "the man was blind only so that another could see."

As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes. "Go," he told him, "wash in the Pool of Siloam" (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.
(John 9:1-7)

Peace

Alaikumassalam

you picked the right one

there surely are other translations/interpretations in which it states that he had been blind so that another man could see

but is it not that that meaning is inimical with that he happened to be blind so that the work of God may be displayed in his life

Either way: he is enabled to be cured because the blindness is not his sin nor his parents sin; so we must assume it is caused by the sin of a third party whom he was enabling to see, and whom perhaps lost their sight to pay for Jesus miracle; also he was blind so as that men could "see" the work of God in his life

The seeing the work of God is in the fact that Jesus made some effort to describe the working of the miracle in that instance. He described that yes he had considered whether the sin that caused the blindness was of either the blind man or his parents; so we can surmise that such knowledge is an essential fact to the realisation of a miracle cure.

From memory the man had been blind since birth, or at least very young, so it had been a very strong healing.

Wasalam

format_quote Originally Posted by Curaezipirid

Alaikumassalam

there surely are other translations/interpretations in which it states that he had been blind so that another man could see

but is it not that that meaning is inimical with that he happened to be blind so that the work of God may be displayed in his life

I have done a fairly extensive search and cannot find any translation, which states that the man was blind so that another man could see.
All refer to him being born blind, so God's power could be demonstrated/manifested/shown to others.

Either way: he is enabled to be cured because the blindness is not his sin nor his parents sin; so we must assume it is caused by the sin of a third party whom he was enabling to see, and whom perhaps lost their sight to pay for Jesus miracle; also he was blind so as that men could "see" the work of God in his life

The seeing the work of God is in the fact that Jesus made some effort to describe the working of the miracle in that instance. He described that yes he had considered whether the sin that caused the blindness was of either the blind man or his parents; so we can surmise that such knowledge is an essential fact to the realisation of a miracle cure.

I don't think that at all.
Quite the opposite, Jesus states that the blindness is not the result of anybody's sin. What makes you assume that it has to do with the sin of a third person?
Do you think somebody else lost his sight at the very same moment, so this bling man could be healed??? Like there is one pair of working eyes available, and Jesus has to take it from one in order to give it to another???

Jesus does not consider whether the blindness has been caused by anybody's sin - he clearly states that it hasn't!
Neither is such knowledge inportant in the performing of the miracle.
Jesus just heals the man, because that's what he came for: to show compassion, to be there for the needy, to bring God's glory to the people!
"While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

From memory the man had been blind since birth, or at least very young, so it had been a very strong healing.

I agree. It's an amazing miracle

Peace.

Alaikum assalam,

I am lead to believe that there is a third party whose sin caused the blindness because it is said that he is blind so that another man can see. I will try to find the Biblical reference, but I suspect that it is within those books which are usually available only to Clergy because I remember hearing a long sermon upon this exact miracle. It was in the Anglican Cathedral in Brisbane, and they have also there an openly accessible Catholic book, that is a gift from the Catholic diocese of Brisbane, and accessible to the public. The sermon should be available over the internet, and I believe it was made during lent 2005. The Dean posts all his sermons, but it could have been one of the Bishop's. I will seek to investigate but I don't like my chances since most recently when I attended that Cathedral was Sunday 17th December 2005, and the black man whom was accompanying me was so revolted with the way in which the clergy were treating me as a Muslim and of Aboriginal ancestry, that he made a very public point of preventing me from staying for the service. He was then himself only two days having professed Faith as a Muslim, and had been experiencing rather extreme stigmata thereafter whenever he was not protecting me. The stigmata concurred with his perception of need to prevent me from being any further wrongfully accused by the clergy there and so I have not attended that Cathedral since. In fact I can not even enter the building without there being an exaserbation in the situation because of a legal case in which one staff member at the Cathedral has witnessed my major affidavit, but other staff members are disbelieving.

However that is not the matter at hand and I shall post when I can validate my statments.

wasalam

format_quote Originally Posted by Curaezipirid

Alaikum assalam,

I am lead to believe that there is a third party whose sin caused the blindness because it is said that he is blind so that another man can see. I will try to find the Biblical reference, but I suspect that it is within those books which are usually available only to Clergy because I remember hearing a long sermon upon this exact miracle.

That would be very interesting. Thank you.

Good luck with the search

The Dean's Sermons can be easily found through looking up St John's Cathedral Brisbane although the scoundrel has altered them considerably from what he speaks in the pulpit: but I guess that is only to be expected since reading is a different form of communication from listening. However looking up the talks has envigoated memory that it is more likely to be one of the Bishop's sermons which are not posted publically. I am now engaged mentally in how to access the proof of what I heard. But I suspect that some of the local Christian bookshops could prove more fruitful.

This is the sad fact. One of the main Christian bookshops in the City is downstairs in a row with a whole bunch of sex toy shops, and it sells the tools of the trade for ministry of holy communion. Because of the position of the shop and the everyday availablity of such things, they manifest remarkably like the pipes for smoking in the nearby shops selling paraphenalia of drug using. However, the selection of books could well provide what I am now seeking.

wasalam

format_quote Originally Posted by Curaezipirid

This is the sad fact. One of the main Christian bookshops in the City is downstairs in a row with a whole bunch of sex toy shops, and it sells the tools of the trade for ministry of holy communion. Because of the position of the shop and the everyday availablity of such things, they manifest remarkably like the pipes for smoking in the nearby shops selling paraphenalia of drug using. However, the selection of books could well provide what I am now seeking.

wasalam

Well, Jesus told us to go and live amongst sinners and non-believers ...
Who knows who might stumble through that Christian bookshop's door by accident, and get saved as a result!

Peace.

Good point glo!

I believe that the four Madhab of Islam are four of the seven churches of Revelations; another is those Muslims whom more directly follow Mohammed only; the other two are for those of us whom are much more able to integrate among the community of non-believers without loosing Faith. Truly it is a far harder task to sustain real Christian Faith within modern Christian settings than it is to sustain Islam within Muslim settings. I am of that Church among Ephesus, but it is not yet so formed as others, but the reality is that there may be many more folk who believe in Qur'an living outside of Muslim settings that many of us recognise. These are who I identify most strongly with. Truly I believe that Islam is one of the Miracles of Jesus; and that Mohammed began the fulfillment of the Prophesies given to Saint John the Evangelist by Jesus in Revelations. Perhaps there are many whom believe like I? Many whom are living in countries which long were Muslim, and are not gone back towards Christian Churches because Christian Churches were giving away more food and blankets to them when in need. Not because Muslims could not or would not, but because Muslims were being prevented by Christians who projected upon Islam that Muslims are not believers.

So that is mainly a bit irrelevent to the Miracles of Jesus; except of course that I believe all Islam is.

wasalam

I came back to this thread to make a point about the immense importance of miracles as a means of instilling permanent belief.

There is a discussion in a thread called: "is science an actual religion and who for?" in which the real need for us to bear witness to one instance of miracle is being shown.

I believe that it is a very important fact that we are only able to bear what each our previous experience has prepared us for. So for a monk it will necessarily be a larger degree of sorrow than for an ordinary person. Because presumably the monk is a monk because he has been witness to a miracle of some sort. Even if that miracle is only that in childhood he was feed by other monks.

The significance of this to Jesus is that His teaching provides so very very many persons with cause to believe that miracle is possible, even now today. This is becasue he laid traces of specific pattern within the brain chemistry of enough persons that all such persons are still today able to effect the entire population and help everybody sustain Faith. Ever actual real Mujahideen has such an experience in which the mind is ineradicably altered to enable belief. It is a miracle of Jesus that such is an ongoing function of both Christian and Muslim Faith. If He had not made this miracle the Earths population surely could not be in such a relatively Peace sustaining frame of mind in general.

wasalam