Creation from Clay

**Arwa** · 05-30-2005

* The Creation of Adam - Part 1

Today’s lesson is entitled “The Creation of Adam (AS)”, however it seems that I will be talking about something else, namely, the submission, humility, surrender, and capitulation between the Hands of Allah (Exalted and Glorious). But, what is the relationship between these topics?

The prominent concept that comes into my mind whenever I talk about Adam’s creation (PBUH) is the submission to Allah (SWT). Hence, your heart must essentially feel—when you listen to the process of the creation of Adam (our father)(PBUH)—how weak and needy you are between the Hands of Allah (SWT), and that you have no other God but Him (SWT). So, let us start with how Adam (PBUH) was created.

You read in the Qur’an—in different Ayat (verses)—that Adam (PBUH) was created from “dust”, “clay”, “sticky clay”, “dried clay”, “dried clay of altered mud”, or “sounding clay like the clay of pottery”, then what is the conclusion, and from which material was Adam (PBUH) created? Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “Verily, the likeness of ‘Isa (Jesus) before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: “Be!” - and he was.” (TMQ, Al Imran: 59) (1).

But look at another Ayah, “(Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: 'Truly I am going to create man from clay'.” (Surat Saad: 71), then He added in another Ayah, “Verily, We created them of a sticky clay.” (TMQ, As Saffat: 11).

What does all this mean? Was he created from dust or clay? Allah (Exalted and Glorious) also says what can be translated as, “And indeed, We created man from dried (sounding) clay of altered mud.” (Surat Al Hijr: 26), then He said in another Ayah what can be translated as, “He created man (Adam) from sounding clay like the clay of pottery.” (TMQ, Ar-Rahman: 14).

Actually, Adam (PBUH) was created from all these materials through the various stages of the process of his creation. Each stage led to the next one, until his creation was completed. So now, let us start step by step to point out why Allah (SWT) made him undergo all these stages. Adam (PBUH) passed through six stages in the course of his creation, so let us benefit from this presentation, for Allah (SWT) coveys a message to us, and teaches us a lesson in each stage.

The First Stage: Dust

The Prophet (PBUH) said, “Allah created Adam from a handful of dust taken from different lands, so the children of Adam have been created according to the composition of the land. Therefore, from mankind we have white, red, black and yellow ones; we have good and evil, ease and sorrow, and what comes in between them.” (Sahih Bukhari and At-Tirmidhi), and in another narration, he (PBUH) said “Allah the Almighty sent Gabriel onto the earth to get Him a handful of dust taken from different lands. Therefore, the children of Adam have been created according to the composition of the land.” What does this mean? The characteristics of people are different because they were created from various heaps of dust taken from all over the world; so there are red, white, and black people, and there are easy and hard-hearted, evil and good persons. This Hadith shows us that our beginning was from a heap of dust, taken from different parts of the earth. That is the reason men have different colors. People have different colors—red, black, white, yellow—like the different colors of dust, and different natures, too. A good person, who comes close to Allah (SWT), once he hears the message, is like good fertile ground. An evil person who insists on wickedness and returns to it, even if you preach to him and help him several times, is like evil land. A hardhearted person who can never feel tenderness is like hard land that is full of thorns, and a kind person whom you love easily is like smooth land.

So, we want to look back at our origin, and realize that we were nothing. We were made of dust, so Glory be to Allah who made the dust speak, think, sail on the water, go up to the sky, and explore space. Glory be to Allah who turned the dust into human beings who move on the earth.

The concept I want to emphasize is how can you--Son of Adam--disobey Allah (SWT)? How can the dust say ‘No’ to the orders of Allah? How can you commit adultery, drink wine, or refuse to pray the prayers at their prescribed times, which is the most desirable work to Allah (SWT)? How can this heap of dust, which is turned into a human being, refuse to follow the orders of Allah (SWT)? Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “Be cursed (the disbelieving) man! How ungrateful he is! From what thing did He create him? From Nutfah (male and female fluids) He created him and then set him in due proportion. Then He makes the Path easy for him. Then He causes him to die and puts him in his grave. Then when it is His Will, He will resurrect him (again).” (TMQ, ‘Abasa: 17-22). Don't you feel how weak and needy you are? Actually, the aim of this lesson is to learn submission, as if I am teaching you a lesson about the value of submission to Allah (SWT); not about the stories of the prophets. This is the understanding I want you to get from it.

My brothers, we were first created from dust. Listen to the Divine Hadith (Hadith Qudsi). Allah (SWT) said, “The one who humbles himself to Me like this (and the Prophet (PBUH) lowered the palm of his hand till it reached the floor), I would elevate him as far as this (and the prophet (PBUH) kept raising his hand so high towards the sky)”.

This was about our creation from dust. How needy and weak we are! Adam (PBUH) was called ‘Adam’ because he was created from the ‘Adeem’ (the dust) of the earth. This is to make us always related to the dust, and to remember that we are from dust whenever Allah (SWT) says, “O’ sons of Adam”. We are the descendents of Adam, who is from dust. This is the first stage of our creation.

Now, do you still insist on your disobedience to the orders of Allah (SWT), even after you knew that you are from dust, and that you are made to speak by the orders of Allah (SWT)?

The Second Stage: the Clay

The dust was soaked with water, so it became clay. (See how very poor we are!). This is the meaning of what Allah (SWT) says to the Angels and can be translated as, “(Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: “Truly I am going to create man from clay”. (TMQ, Saad: 71). Why did Allah (SWT) choose these two elements (dust and water) to start Adam’s creation (PBUH)? Why did He not choose iron, for example? This is not only to humble ourselves before Allah (SWT), but it has another beautiful meaning.

The main function of dust and water is purification, cleanliness, and bathing. There is no purification without water. The Prophet (PBUH) said, “The earth has been made for me a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum (dry ablution with dust, when water is not available).” As if Allah (SWT) wants to say to us that our origin is pure and clean, since we are created of the purest elements on the earth. So, be aware of contaminating this purity. For those people who watch forbidden and disgraceful satellite channels, or those who visit immoral sites on the internet, why do you pollute this purity inside you? By doing this, a person imagines that all women and men are wicked, and that the origin of mankind is filth. This is absolutely wrong. We are created from dust and water to realize that we are pure and clean.

Compare these meanings with the meanings of the Western civilization, which perceives Man as a ‘bad insect’. There is an international Western scholar who said, “Man is a malignant insect, which lives among the garbage of life.” Can you imagine that he said such a thing, although he is an international scholar? We must not defile the purity from which we were made.

The one who used to commit adultery contaminates the most virtuous thing in himself. The one who abuses drugs defiles the purest soul inside him. Just like a person who throws junk in the water and pollutes it, would you drink it? Man is the one who defiles himself, and pollutes the dust and the water from which he was created, so he makes people hate to deal with him and with the pure things he was created from. I hope that this meaning can convey my message to you.

I hope that everyone can realize the seriousness of becoming used to committing adultery and other similar sins. The girl who boldly allows a man to enjoy her body—even with a kiss—defiles the purity from which she was created. Take care of your origins; for your origins are composed of the most pure elements.

The dust was soaked with water, and then turned into clay.

The Third Stage: Sticky Clay

The clay started to be more compact, until it became sticky, adhesive, and thick. Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “Verily, We created them of sticky clay.” (TMQ, As-Saffat: 11). What is the meaning of “sticky”? It means that it is an adhesive mixture of clay that is easy to be shaped. What is the value of this stage? It is to show the meaning that you have strength and cohesion in your creation. Sometimes, one may feel that he is alone, lost, and has no aim in life. You are created from “sticky clay”, so do not scatter yourself. The meaning of stickiness is united. When a person is far from Allah (SWT), he becomes lost and scattered. Without Allah, your heart becomes scattered, dispersed, and alone. You must get exhausted, because the entire universe goes in the direction of Allah (SWT), while you go in the opposite direction. The “sticky clay” basically means that you have cohesion and unity. Some people, who are away from Allah (SWT), feel that they are nothing, and that they have no existence as if they are mere air, while you are created from a mixture of sticky clay; you are not scattered. The clay clung together and became easy to be shaped.

The Forth Stage: molding and shaping

At this stage, Adam (PBUH) is now sticky clay, which is easy to be shaped. Then Allah (SWT) molded him with His Hands. There is no God, but Allah (SWT). Do you feel submission and humility to Allah (SWT)? Adam (PBUH) was molded by the Hands of Allah (SWT)! Then a question might be raised; what is the evidence for this? It is in what Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “(Allah) said: “O Iblis (Satan)! What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with Both My Hands? Are you too proud (to fall prostrate to Adam) or are you one of the high exalted?”“ (TMQ, Saad: 75). Adam (PBUH) was created by the Hands of Allah (SWT). Do not ask how, and do not try to find either a resemblance or an embodiment of this action, but rather say, “There is nothing like Him.” The meaning itself that our father Adam (PBUH) was created by the Hands of Allah (SWT) is enough. Are you going to submit to Allah (SWT) or not?

The creatures, which are created with the noble Hands of Allah (SWT), must remain pure. Say to yourself what you would not say to Allah (SWT), who created our father with His Hands, “I am free, I will not wear a scarf, I will not pray, or I will not be kind to my parents since I am not convinced about this!”. Do you feel Allah’s (SWT) affection for you? This is the meaning; the one who creates something with his hands makes it as evidence of his love for this thing. Perceive your value to Allah (SWT); for we are dear to Allah (SWT). So how can we dare disobey Allah (SWT) after all this?

Listen to the Hadith Qudsi. Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “O’ son of Adam, I created you with My Hands, and brought you up with My blessings, while you defy Me and disobey Me. If you repent afterwards, I will accept you. So where you can find a God like Me, the Most Merciful, the Most Forgiving.” Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “And whatever of blessings and good things you have, it is from Allâh” (TMQ, An-Nahl: 53). We are created by the Hands of Allah (SWT).

The Fifth Stage: Drying the pottery clay

After these stages of creation (the dust was soaked with water and became clay, then the clay was compounded and became cohesive clay ready to be shaped, then Allah (SWT) molded it with His Hands, so it became a potter’s clay), the potter’s clay was left to dry, so its color was changed because of the influence of the winds. Look at our origin, how weak it was! How dare we to disobey Allah (SWT)? When the clay was wet, then it was exposed to the winds, its color changed and became like “dried clay of altered mud”. What is “dried clay of altered mud”? It is a kind of clay, the color of which changed to a lighter shade of black as a result of leaving it for some time to dry. Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “And indeed, We created man from dried (sounding) clay of altered mud.” (TMQ, Al Hijr: 26). This emphasizes our weakness before Allah (SWT).

The Sixth Stage: Sounding Clay

When the clay dried, it became hollow; it had an internal cavity (the cavity of the mouth). Therefore, it became like the clay of pottery, which is hollow, dry clay that makes a sound when it is tapped. Thus, Adam (PBUH) was a figure of dry clay with an internal cavity for the soul to enter through it. Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “He created man (Adam) from sounding clay like the clay of pottery” (TMQ, Ar-Rahman: 14). Did I not tell you that today’s lesson is called humility, resignation, and submission to Allah (SWT)?

Iblis (Satan) started to turn this body around and to hit it; then he found that it made a sound. Hence, there is no contradiction between the Ayat, for there are six stages of Adam’s (PBUH) creation: dust, clay, sticky clay, clay in the shape of a human being, dried clay of altered mud, and then sounding clay like the clay of pottery. By that time, Adam (PBUH) was a huge figure. He was left like that, while the soul had not yet been breathed into him. Why did Adam’s (PBUH) creation pass through all these stages? Was Allah (SWT) not able to say to it, ““Be!” - and it is.” (TMQ, Al Baqara: 117)? I think that the answer is easy. It is to realize how weak you are and how powerful Allah (SWT) is, to know your need for Him, and to feel that you are nothing without Him.

Did you see the miracle, which made the dust move [or come alive]? Allah (SWT) is able to do anything.

This leads us to the next stage; for Adam (PBUH), by that time, was a huge figure made of hollow clay, while the soul had not been breathed into him yet. How long did he remain a body without a soul? People said a period of time. Some Hadith narrated by Al-Tabarany on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas inform us that he remained like this for 40 days. Why did he remain like this? To emphasize your weakness.

The Prophet (PBUH) said (Hadith narrated by Imam Muslim), “When Allah molded Adam, He left him in Paradise for sometime. Our original home is Paradise, since our father was created there. We have nothing to do with this world.” When I ask you about your homeland, you tell me it is Al-Mansoura, but I tell you that your homeland is your father’s homeland. The original homeland of your father is Paradise. You are a stranger in this world, and you came to this world for a prescribed mission, which is to prove that you are a servant of Allah, and you yearn to return to your original homeland. Adam was created in Paradise, although the dust he was created from was from the earth. The first things he saw were the blessings and the fruits of Paradise. I wonder that there are some people who never ask Allah to grant them Paradise throughout their lifetimes. I wonder about young boys and girls in this world who do not put Paradise as their most important goal in life. “When Allah (SWT) shaped Adam (PBUH) in Paradise, He left him there for sometime, then He made Iblis go around him and examine him. When Iblis saw that Adam (PBUH) was hollow, he realized that he cannot resist temptation, and that he can deceive him.” (Hadith narrated by Muslim)

I present this Hadith to you because Satan tries to examine every one of us. He looked at Adam (PBUH) examined him, and thought about how to enter his body when he was hollow, until he realized that his point of weakness is that he cannot control himself in the face of temptation. Satan examines every one of us, and he makes you love your point of weakness. He can make you blind to your point of weakness for twenty years, so you may repeat the same mistake for twenty years without noticing this, because he has examined you and knows your weakest point. This point of weakness has only one solution mentioned in the Qur’an. Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “Certainly, you shall have no authority over My slaves…” (TMQ, Al Hijr: 42). Satan turns around you (as he did with your father [Adam]) trying to determine your point of weakness, for he actually knows the weakest point in every one of us. For example, someone may have his point of weakness in his friends, who deceive him, or in some one who introduces him to forbidden things. The only solution is to seek refuge and help from Allah (SWT), to come close to Allah (SWT), and to ask Him to save you from the deeds of Satan.

Adam (PBUH) remained in this stage for long period of time (40 years or 40 days). This is what is meant by what Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “Has there not been over man a period of time, when he was not a thing worth mentioning?” (TMQ, Al-Insân: 1). Allah (SWT) directs a question to us, have we ever been something worthless, or was it Man who originated the universe? The answer to the first part is, Yes, Allah, we have been worthless for a period of time.

As I told you, Adam (PBUH) was a huge figure made of hollow clay, and was left in Paradise. Now, a great thing will happen. I would like you to try to imagine this while I am telling it to you. It is the greatest thing Allah (SWT) did; it is breathing the soul into Adam’s body (PBUH). Allah (SWT) says what can be translated as, “So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.” (TMQ, Saad: 72).

My brothers and sisters, do we notice this breath inside us? You have a Heavenly breath inside you. You were created from two pure elements; dust and water, then Allah (SWT) did not only mold you with His own Hands; but He also breathed His soul into you. In this Ayah, there are three manifestations of honor for Man. The first one is “fashioned him”, which means that Allah (SWT) formed Adam (PBUH) in the most noble shape. The second is that Allah (SWT) breathed His soul into Adam (PBUH), and the third one is that all the angels prostrated to him. Do you want a better evaluation than this? Do you believe that Allah (SWT) likes this creature? Do you still not believe that you are noble and dear to Allah (SWT)? How can He be generous to you to this great extent, while you still do not want to love Him and do not yearn for Him? How can you defile this pure breath inside you? It is a breath from Allah (SWT). Of course, it is a formless breath, and we know nothing about it, and we do not ask about it, but we, rather, leave its knowledge to Allah (SWT). It is a Divine breath from Allah (SWT). You have purity inside you, but can you imagine its value when you contaminate it? How dare you hurt this pure breath by taking drugs or smoking cigarettes? How can some youth dare to insult each other, how can you eat bad or forbidden things, how can you earn money by unlawful means? How did you not respect this great breath?

You are noble and dear to Allah (SWT). I will tell you some Hadith Qudsi, in which Allah (SWT) shows His affection for you, and His desire that you should be close to Him. I will narrate to you some of them to stir you.

Allah (SWT) said in Hadith Qudsi, “I, mankind, and Jinn are in an odd situation; I create, and they worship others. I give and they thank others. My blessings go down to them and their evils come up to Me. I kindly offer them My mercy despite that I am in no need of them. They are fighting Me with sins while they are in pitiable need of Me. Those who are praising Me, are My servants. So, whoever wants to be one of My servants just celebrate My praises. Those who obey Me, are those whom I love. And those who disobey Me, I never exclude them from My Mercy. If they repent, I grant them My love, and if they refuse to repent, I will cure their hearts by afflictions until they are purified from defects. The good deed in My accounts equals ten and more, and the evil deed in My account equals one and I forgive. I swear with My Glory and Honor, if they ask for forgiveness I'll forgive them. Whoever repents and comes to Me, I will receive him though he is far away. And whoever turns back, I will call him closely telling him, ‘O’ My slave where are you going? Do you have any other God?’”

Allah (SWT) inspired Dawud (David), “O’ Dawud, if the reluctant persons would know My yearning for their return, My desire for their repentance, and my wish for forgiving them; they would ache for Me. O’ Dawud, [if] this is my desire for the reluctant persons, then what about My affection for the willing ones?” Look to His affection for us, his generosity, and his longing for us!

**mansio** · 06-21-2005

Steve,

Many things that happened in the past are not found in one source but in several. The pharaohs of Egypt are mentioned in Egyptians annals and inscriptions and in the Bible. The Hittites are mentioned by their own inscriptions and in Egyptian annals.

Don't make me believe that God wouldn't have been powerful enough to preserve the memories of Adam, Noah and Abraham in more than one source, if they had existed. Were the pagans gods more important to Him that we find their traces all over the world ?

By the way, if you believe Adam existed, tell me when he lived.

**aamirsaab** · 06-21-2005

Ah nice question. I can't answer it cus i wasn't born at the time. However, i can counter the question to you: You had a great grandfather who's great grandfather had a great grandfather but you don't know when he lived. One can make an estimate of the time of that. one can also make an estiamte of the time of Adam. My estimation is a several thousand years ago. however, i cannot pin pointy it because i dont know how long man has been on earth as the method of calculating years have changed (e.g. B.C and A.C). Thus, i cannot answer your question because i don't really know what year he was born.

God is all powerful but He doesn't perform Human actions for He is God - not a human. He works differently and so His method of preserving the memories of Adam etc are different to what an average human's.

There is also another reason why Adam isn't remebered by a material item. This is because people would start to worship the idol/item and forget about the true person Adam was. it is called idol worshipping. this is also one of the reasons there are no pictures of Allah and why we as muslims are forbidden to idol worship.

**Preacher** · 06-21-2005

Originally Posted by mansio

Everywhere archaeologists dig they find remnants of pagan gods.

They have never found a trace of Adam, Noah and Abraham.

mansio

If something is not found that does not constitutes it never existed. Beside that, a corpse in a decade is usually reduced to skull and few bones. So how would you think your so-called archaeologists would conclude that these bones belongs to or are of, Adam, Noah Abraham? I wasn't aware that your so-called archaeologists are that advance who can identify thousands years old bones and can tell with precision accuracy that it was/is "John Doe" who lived 6000 years ago?

Your statement is also very generalized and biased, because remnanats of pagan gods are not the only things that have been found, however, other things are not an issue here. Nevertheless, Adam (as) built the Ka'ba, but again you don't believe in that. Ka'ba is still standing, also, we have some information in traditions about things your archaeologists and you don't know. Needless to mention that some of your Biblical Prophets have come to Ka'ba and performed Hajj, I wonder why? Here is one proof out of many from your Bible, which is pretty detailed and comprehensive..

Prophet Ezekiel’s account of Performing Hajj

**Ansar Al-'Adl** · 06-22-2005

Originally Posted by mansio

Man molded from clay by a god is an age-old pagan myth.

The fact that some idea/theology is old does not make it any less valid. That's a logical fallacy. Remember, islam claims to be the original teachings since the beginning of time. Wouldn't it seem reasonable that the early Prophets of Islam spoke of creation from clay?

Secondly, you called the notion a 'pagan myth', both of which are unsubstatiated claims. Can you show me conclusive evidence that the theory of creation from clay has pagan origins? Can you show me how it is a myth?

I already discussed the creation from clay, with forum member root (atheist), and I've added that to the beginning of this discussion. Perhaps you should scroll back and read wrote.

**mansio** · 06-22-2005

Sometimes I wonder if I am not discussing with children.
The idea of man molded from clay doesn't need to come from God. God is so much smarter than that. Anybody can watch a potter molding a statue. By analogy, in the pagan cultures, that fact gave the idea of a god creating a human being that way.
Man created from clay is a pagan myth borrowed by the Bible and then by the Quran.
It's as simple as that.

Most Christians know it's a pagan myth but they take it in a figurative meaning, symbolically. So they are not in the least embarrassed in their faith by the discoveries of science.
Some on this forum believe Adam actually existed, not by their own discoveries, but because they are told so by the Quran. So that obliges them to distort reality to make it match with the Quran.

As man emerged about two millions years ago when did Adam live ? If you want to narrow the question down to Homo Sapiens, who emerged between half a million and a quarter million years, do it.

**root** · 06-22-2005

Some on this forum believe Adam actually existed, not by their own discoveries, but because they are told so by the Quran. So that obliges them to distort reality to make it match with the Quran.

I noticed too how quickly the thread was detroyed when we got to specifics regarding Adam.

Some on this forum believe Adam actually existed, not by their own discoveries, but because they are told so by the Quran. So that obliges them to distort reality to make it match with the Quran.

I agree with this too, and it is called "primatephobia".

**Umm Yoosuf** · 06-22-2005

Assalaamu Alaykum

Arwa Jazakallahu Khayr sister!

**aamirsaab** · 06-22-2005

Originally Posted by mansio

Man created from clay is a pagan myth borrowed by the Bible and then by the Quran.
It's as simple as that.

LOL, you do realise that the BIBLE and the QURAN both came from God. Thus, the QURAN didn'tt copy the BIBLE as the information is the same - not copied.

If you listen to an answer, you will have no question.
The deal with Adam is that he was the first human on this planet. We can estimate that he was on this earth several thousand years ago. Thus, there can be no "argument" about his existence.
The argument was "destroyed" before it began. You guys are on an Islamic forum and are tryin to disprove the existence of one of the most important figures in Islam. Anytime we try to explain something to you, you ask us more questions. You are never satisfied with any answer and you never will be. Perhaps there is something missing in you soul? Ah I know what it is: faith.

**root** · 06-22-2005

The deal with Adam is that he was the first human on this planet. We can estimate that he was on this earth several thousand years ago. Thus, there can be no "argument" about his existence.

How can you estimate that. Several thousand is not the same as 500,000......

The argument was "destroyed" before it began. You guys are on an Islamic forum and are tryin to disprove the existence of one of the most important figures in Islam. Anytime we try to explain something to you, you ask us more questions. You are never satisfied with any answer and you never will be. Perhaps there is something missing in you soul? Ah I know what it is: faith.

Ah, faith...... I agree you cannot argue faith. If someone has faith that the sky is actually black then nothing and no ammount of evidence will sway his mind even if that meant he could no longer see what was in front of his eyes

**aamirsaab** · 06-22-2005

How can you estimate that. Several thousand is not the same as 500,000......

ok i meant many thousands. my bad.

Ah, faith...... I agree you cannot argue faith. If someone has faith that the sky is actually black then nothing and no ammount of evidence will sway his mind even if that meant he could no longer see what was in front of his eyes

Faith doesn't make one blind. It gives them hope. It allows them to do things that they might never be able to do had they not had faith. Faith doesn't make one wrong - nor does it make them right. Faith is Faith.

**Muhammad** · 06-22-2005

Originally Posted by mansio

Sometimes I wonder if I am not discussing with children.
The idea of man molded from clay doesn't need to come from God. God is so much smarter than that. Anybody can watch a potter molding a statue. By analogy, in the pagan cultures, that fact gave the idea of a god creating a human being that way.
Man created from clay is a pagan myth borrowed by the Bible and then by the Quran.
It's as simple as that.

One might as well say that if God created mankind, why is there sickness? Why isn't eveything perfect? Why don't things happen according to what we perceive to be as 'common sense'? The fact is, one of the attributes of God is that He is the All-Wise. Therefore we often find things that might not make sense to us, but God, out of His great Wisdom and Knowledge, knows it to be for the best. Who are we to question why God chose a certain substance to create us out of?
You say the pagans got their ideas from watching a potter, please provide evidence.

You still have not answered the question as to how you know which existed first: monotheism or paganism. Therefore how do you KNOW that the Bible and the Quran "borrowed" ideas? Let's be fair about this and provide proof to backup our statements shall we, don't just throw statements blindly into the air and expect everyone to believe them. Its no wonder you don't take any answers when you can't even provide solid evidence yourself.

Originally Posted by mansio

Most Christians know it's a pagan myth but they take it in a figurative meaning, symbolically. So they are not in the least embarrassed in their faith by the discoveries of science.

What exactly are you saying here, that most of the world's Christians don't believe that God made humans? That's a rather big assumption and if they don't, I doubt they can call themselves Christian. Maybe you could elaborate on this and possibly show some evidence.

Originally Posted by mansio

Some on this forum believe Adam actually existed, not by their own discoveries, but because they are told so by the Quran. So that obliges them to distort reality to make it match with the Quran.

Since when has anyone distorted reality to make it match with the Quran?? Science and Islam do not contradict each other, so perhaps you could provide examples proving otherwise?

Originally Posted by mansio

As man emerged about two millions years ago when did Adam live ? If you want to narrow the question down to Homo Sapiens, who emerged between half a million and a quarter million years, do it.

Muslims do not get too bogged down with unnecessary questions like the exact year in which the first man on earth lived. God has made it known that He created the first man, and this man came to earth, what more would you like to know? There are even descriptions about his height if you are that interested, and about his family etc etc. but you cannot expect modern day technology to reveal some remains from millions of years ago, and use that as an argument that Adam did not exist.
It has already been mentioned that:

Originally Posted by Preacher

If something is not found that does not constitutes it never existed.

And please do remember to think about the following questions:

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

The fact that some idea/theology is old does not make it any less valid. That's a logical fallacy. Remember, islam claims to be the original teachings since the beginning of time. Wouldn't it seem reasonable that the early Prophets of Islam spoke of creation from clay?

Secondly, you called the notion a 'pagan myth', both of which are unsubstatiated claims. Can you show me conclusive evidence that the theory of creation from clay has pagan origins? Can you show me how it is a myth?

**Muhammad** · 06-22-2005

Originally Posted by root

I noticed too how quickly the thread was detroyed when we got to specifics regarding Adam.

I agree with this too, and it is called "primatephobia".

I think what's happened here is that certain people were asked for evidence and they chose to ignore that. Then they asked the same questions as though nobody answered them. The thread is still going but people are just trying to make false accusations and choose to take and leave what they like.

I think there is also such a thing as 'faithophobia' though it might not be a registered word yet.

Originally Posted by root

Ah, faith...... I agree you cannot argue faith. If someone has faith that the sky is actually black then nothing and no ammount of evidence will sway his mind even if that meant he could no longer see what was in front of his eyes

Strange you say that because it can go both ways... Some people claim they will only believe until they see God in front of their very eyes. I ask you, if He is the One to create our entire universe, the One whom mansio believes is so "smart" that making us out of clay seems unbelievable, why should He come down every century or so to prove His existence, when everything around us already points to His existence??
There is evidence everywhere around us yet some are blind to it, and God even mentions them in His Noble Book:

'Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.' [2:6]

God addresses the Children of Israel:
'And (remember) when you said: "O Musa (Moses)! We shall never believe in you until we see Allaah plainly." But you were seized with a thunderbolt (lightning) while you were looking.
Then we raised you up after your death, so that you might be grateful.' [2:55-56]

'And even if We had sent down to them the angels and the dead had spoken to them and We had brought together all things before them, they would not believe unless Allah pleases, but most of them are ignorant.' [6:111]

'And those who do not hope for Our meeting, say: Why have not angels been sent down upon us, or (why) do we not see our Lord? Now certainly they are too proud of themselves and have revolted in great revolt.' [25:21]

'And certainly We have explained for men in this Quran every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying.
And they say: We will by no means believe in you (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) until you cause a fountain to gush forth from the earth for us.
Or you should have a garden of palms and grapes in the midst of which you should cause rivers to flow forth, gushing out.
Or you should cause the heaven to come down upon us in pieces as you think, or bring Allah and the angels face to face (with us).
Or you should have a house of gold, or you should ascend into heaven, and we will not believe in your ascending until you bring down to us a book which we may read. Say: Glory be to my Lord; am I aught but a mortal apostle?' [17:89-93]

**Angel24** · 06-22-2005

Thankz for the post...indeed was a long one but just read part 1 yet...
got answers of my questions.....

:applaud: :applaud: :applaud:

**mansio** · 06-22-2005

Faith by itself doesn't mean anything.
If it is faith in something real, then it is legitimate.
If it is faith in something unreal, that has never existed, then it's called gullibility.

**Ansar Al-'Adl** · 06-22-2005

Mansio,
Its interesting that you call certain beliefs "fairy tales" or "pagan myths", yet the Qur'an rsponded to such arguments 1400 years ago.

25:4-6 But the disbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged, and others have helped him at it." In truth it is they who have put forward an iniquity and a falsehood.
And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening."
Say: "The (Qur'an) was sent down by Him who knows the mysteries in the heavens and the earth: verily He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

And furthermore:
83:10-14. Woe, that Day, to those that deny-Those that deny the Day of Judgment. And none can deny it but the Transgressor beyond bounds the Sinner! When Our Signs are rehearsed to him, he says, "Tales of the ancients!" By no means! but on their hearts is the stain of the (ill) which they do!

16:24 When it is said to them, "What is it that your Lord has revealed?" they say, "Tales of the ancients!"

I find it miraculous that in whatever debate I have, the Qur'an explicity answers the claims of my opponents for me. SubhanAllah.

Originally Posted by mansio

Sometimes I wonder if I am not discussing with children.

I asked you a question and you respond with condescending remarks. Let's try to have a productive dialogue, please.

The idea of man molded from clay doesn't need to come from God. God is so much smarter than that.

The logic doesn't follow here. God informs us that He has created human beings from clay, yet you dismiss God's words on the basis of what? Creation from clay is a sign for human beings, since to us clay seems so lifeless and inconceivable that we could be created from it, yet God has truly designed us in the best form from this substance, a testimony to His power and wisdom.
http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/eng...FatwaID=104053

Besides, I don't even know how you can remotely use this as an argument against Islam, since the nature of this clay was unknown to you.

This is what we know of earthly clay:

Clay is a generic term for an aggregate of hydrous silicate particles less than 4 ?m (micrometres) in diameter. Clay consists of a variety of phyllosilicate minerals rich in silicon and aluminium oxides and hydroxides which include variable amounts of structural water. Clays are generally formed by the chemical weathering of silicate-bearing rocks by carbonic acid, but some are formed by hydrothermal activity. Clays are distinguished from other small particles present in soils such as silt by their small size, flake or layered shape, affinity for water and high plasticity index.
There are three main groups of clays: kaolinite-serpentine, illite, and smectite. Altogether, there are about thirty different types of "pure" clays in these categories, but most natural clays are mixtures of these different types, as well as other weathered minerals.
Montmorillonite, with a chemical formula of (Na,Ca)0.33(Al,Mg)2Si4O10(OH)2·nH2O, is typically formed as a weathering product of low silica rocks. Montmorillonite is a member of the smectite group and a major component of bentonite.
Clays sintered in fire were the first ceramic, and remain one of the cheapest to produce and most widely used materials even in the present day. Bricks, cooking pots, art objects, dishware, spark plug tips, and even musical instruments such as the ocarina are all made with clay. Clay is also used in many industrial processes, such as paper making, concrete production, and chemical filtering.
Varve (or varved clay) is clay with visible annual layers, formed by seasonal differences in erosion and organic content. This type of deposit is common in former glacial lakes from the ice age.
Quick clay is a unique type of marine clay, indigenous to the glaciated terrains of Norway, Canada, and Sweden. It is a highly sensitive clay, prone to liquefaction which has been involved in several deadly landslides.

Anybody can watch a potter molding a statue. By analogy, in the pagan cultures, that fact gave the idea of a god creating a human being that way.

What you say is not historically correct, because in ancient cultures, the creation of clay was not accepted as the true account of man's creation.

In Norse Mythology, the first humans were created from logs by Odin and his brothers.

In the Ancient Aryan myths, we find the belief that the first man and woman grew out of plants and bushes.

In the Babylonian myths, Marduk uses the blood of Kingu to create man.

In the Inca mythology, Con Tiqui fashoned human beings out of giant rocks.

In the Mayan mythology, human beings are created by the Heart-of-sky from Maize-corn dough.

In the Navajo nation, humans were believed to be created from the ears of corn.

In the Celtic mythology, human beings are the descendents of the gods.

Amonst Egyptian Mythology, we find the belief that men and women formed from the tears of the god, Khepera.

Is this enough evidence? Quite clearly, your claim that ancient civilizations naturally believed in creation from clay as they saw pottery is comnpletely unjustified. The account of creation from clay spread under the Abrahamic faiths. Therefore, your claim that it is a "pagan myth" is refuted.

I agree that you will find some ancient cultures that believed in creation from clay, but this is clearly the result of divine revelation, and not analogies from pottery.

Man created from clay is a pagan myth borrowed by the Bible and then by the Quran.
It's as simple as that.

You can keep repeating the same claims, but that doesn't make them anymore credible.

Most Christians know it's a pagan myth but they take it in a figurative meaning, symbolically. So they are not in the least embarrassed in their faith by the discoveries of science.

It would seem to me that they are embarassed, and that's why they need to take the account "symbolically".

Some on this forum believe Adam actually existed, not by their own discoveries, but because they are told so by the Quran.

The sources for knowledge amongst human beings are many, but the most authoritative source is divine revelation. Once a scripture has been accepted as divine revelation, it holds the most weight as evidence.

So that obliges them to distort reality to make it match with the Quran.

Which reality has been distorted?

As man emerged about two millions years ago when did Adam live ? If you want to narrow the question down to Homo Sapiens, who emerged between half a million and a quarter million years, do it.

You can set a date for Adam whenever you wish, in light of scientific discoveries. It doesn't amke a difference.

According to our current understanding of evolution, there were several "bottle-necks" in the history of our species, where scientists have identified an extremely low number of individuals in the population. They suggest that at these points in our timeline, a great number of species died out, and the species procreated from these indivduals. Adam (pbuh) may have been aty any of those bottle-necks.

**Muezzin** · 06-22-2005

Originally Posted by mansio

Faith by itself doesn't mean anything.
If it is faith in something real, then it is legitimate.
If it is faith in something unreal, that has never existed, then it's called gullibility.

Define reality and existence after reading the works of Baudrillard. Reality is only what our conciousness makes it - and we don't even know what that really is yet.

**Muhammad** · 06-23-2005

And last but most certainly not least; a topping to finish off our response:

Originally Posted by mansio

I come to the crux of the matter : do you believe that Adam was an ape-like biped that slowly became intelligent, slowly acquired speech and slowly became religious ? "Slowly" can mean several thousand years.

Many times in the Qur'an can a person find the story of Adam. One only has to pick up the book and read.

[2.29]He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.

[2.30] And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

[2.31] And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right.
[2.32] They said: Glory be to Thee! we have no knowledge but that which Thou hast taught us; surely Thou art the Knowing, the Wise.

[2.33] He said: O Adam! inform them of their names. Then when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not say to you that I surely know what is ghaib in the heavens and the earth and (that) I know what you manifest and what you hide?

[2.34] And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam they did obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

[2.35] And We said: O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the garden and eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish and do not approach this tree, for then you will be of the unjust.

[2.36] But the Shaitan made them both fall from it, and caused them to depart from that (state) in which they were; and We said: Get forth, some of you being the enemies of others, and there is for you in the earth an abode and a provision for a time.

[2.37] Then Adam received (some) words from his Lord, so He turned to him mercifully; surely He is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
[2.38] We said: Go forth from this (state) all; so surely there will come to you a guidance from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.

[2.39] And (as to) those who disbelieve in and reject My communications, they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.

Please note:
Allaah taught Adam the names of everything, which answers your question as to how Adam acquired intelligence.

**Ansar Al-'Adl** · 06-24-2005

Threads split.

Some of my points were being left unanswered. We will deal with the origins of the story of creation from clay, as well as it's scientific authenticity, in this thread.

**root** · 06-25-2005

Some of my points were being left unanswered. We will deal with the origins of the story of creation from clay, as well as it's scientific authenticity, in this thread.

I can accept this, for I too have lost my way when the thread split. "creation from clay" or "evolution from clay". which is it to be............... for the point of the discussion.

**Preacher** · 06-25-2005

I am not sure why some people; especially "atheists and evolutionists" parrot too much of science, scientific and scientific evidence for everything, like science is the panacea of every question and human problems.

If that is true than, why there is a term in scientific vocabulary as "Paranormal" and why it has often used as an answer or conclusion by the scientists and experts etc?

Let us look in the American Heritage Dictionary what is the meaning of the word "Paranormal?"

par·a·nor·mal (p²r”…-nôr“m…l) adj. Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation: such paranormal phenomena as telepathy; a medium's paranormal powers. --par”a·nor·mal“i·ty (-nôr-m²l“¹-t¶) n. --par”a·nor“mal·ly adv.

Now we are often bombard with the non-sense that science has found the cure of this and that, true; but what is the relevance of finding the cure of TB or any other disease with belief, in unknown and unseen or existence of God?

What about all those failures where science or scientific community conceded the defeat by concluding an issue or question as "Paranormal?" Doesn't it prove something, hello?

Despite of all its success (that no one is denying) science or scientific community have hopelessly failed to tell us what is the origin/s of life or how the life began?

The irony of the issue of evolution is that, it has two such distinct aspects to it. One is its theory, and the other one is its cause. The theory of evolution is said to be a certainty, whereas the cause of evolution is as yet unknown.

How it is possible for a concept to be believed with such forceful certainty when the causes are unknown?

It is like evolutionists are saying that, the concept of evolution is a theory for which arguments have yet to be discovered.

Can you see the obvious absurdity, here?

Regards