Re: Creation from clay
Mansio,
Its interesting that you call certain beliefs "fairy tales" or "pagan myths", yet the Qur'an rsponded to such arguments 1400 years ago.
25:4-6 But the disbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged, and others have helped him at it." In truth it is they who have put forward an iniquity and a falsehood.
And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening."
Say: "The (Qur'an) was sent down by Him who knows the mysteries in the heavens and the earth: verily He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
And furthermore:
83:10-14. Woe, that Day, to those that deny-Those that deny the Day of Judgment. And none can deny it but the Transgressor beyond bounds the Sinner! When Our Signs are rehearsed to him, he says, "Tales of the ancients!" By no means! but on their hearts is the stain of the (ill) which they do!
16:24 When it is said to them, "What is it that your Lord has revealed?" they say, "Tales of the ancients!"
I find it miraculous that in whatever debate I have, the Qur'an explicity answers the claims of my opponents for me. SubhanAllah.
mansio said:
Sometimes I wonder if I am not discussing with children.
I asked you a question and you respond with condescending remarks. Let's try to have a productive dialogue, please.
The idea of man molded from clay doesn't need to come from God. God is so much smarter than that.
The logic doesn't follow here. God informs us that He has created human beings from clay, yet you dismiss God's words on the basis of what? Creation from clay is a sign for human beings, since to us clay seems so lifeless and inconceivable that we could be created from it, yet God has truly designed us in the best form from this substance, a testimony to His power and wisdom.
http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=104053
Besides, I don't even know how you can remotely use this as an argument against Islam, since the nature of this clay was unknown to you.
This is what we know of earthly clay:
Clay is a generic term for an aggregate of hydrous silicate particles less than 4 ?m (micrometres) in diameter. Clay consists of a variety of phyllosilicate minerals rich in silicon and aluminium oxides and hydroxides which include variable amounts of structural water. Clays are generally formed by the chemical weathering of silicate-bearing rocks by carbonic acid, but some are formed by hydrothermal activity. Clays are distinguished from other small particles present in soils such as silt by their small size, flake or layered shape, affinity for water and high plasticity index.
There are three main groups of clays: kaolinite-serpentine, illite, and smectite. Altogether, there are about thirty different types of "pure" clays in these categories, but most natural clays are mixtures of these different types, as well as other weathered minerals.
Montmorillonite, with a chemical formula of (Na,Ca)0.33(Al,Mg)2Si4O10(OH)2·nH2O, is typically formed as a weathering product of low silica rocks. Montmorillonite is a member of the smectite group and a major component of bentonite.
Clays sintered in fire were the first ceramic, and remain one of the cheapest to produce and most widely used materials even in the present day. Bricks, cooking pots, art objects, dishware, spark plug tips, and even musical instruments such as the ocarina are all made with clay. Clay is also used in many industrial processes, such as paper making, concrete production, and chemical filtering.
Varve (or varved clay) is clay with visible annual layers, formed by seasonal differences in erosion and organic content. This type of deposit is common in former glacial lakes from the ice age.
Quick clay is a unique type of marine clay, indigenous to the glaciated terrains of Norway, Canada, and Sweden. It is a highly sensitive clay, prone to liquefaction which has been involved in several deadly landslides.
Anybody can watch a potter molding a statue. By analogy, in the pagan cultures, that fact gave the idea of a god creating a human being that way.
What you say is not historically correct, because in ancient cultures, the creation of clay was not accepted as the true account of man's creation.
In Norse Mythology, the first humans were created from logs by Odin and his brothers.
In the Ancient Aryan myths, we find the belief that the first man and woman grew out of plants and bushes.
In the Babylonian myths, Marduk uses the blood of Kingu to create man.
In the Inca mythology, Con Tiqui fashoned human beings out of giant rocks.
In the Mayan mythology, human beings are created by the Heart-of-sky from Maize-corn dough.
In the Navajo nation, humans were believed to be created from the ears of corn.
In the Celtic mythology, human beings are the descendents of the gods.
Amonst Egyptian Mythology, we find the belief that men and women formed from the tears of the god, Khepera.
Is this enough evidence? Quite clearly, your claim that ancient civilizations naturally believed in creation from clay as they saw pottery is comnpletely unjustified. The account of creation from clay spread under the Abrahamic faiths. Therefore, your claim that it is a "pagan myth" is refuted.
I agree that you will find some ancient cultures that believed in creation from clay, but this is clearly the result of divine revelation, and not analogies from pottery.
Man created from clay is a pagan myth borrowed by the Bible and then by the Quran.
It's as simple as that.
You can keep repeating the same claims, but that doesn't make them anymore credible.
Most Christians know it's a pagan myth but they take it in a figurative meaning, symbolically. So they are not in the least embarrassed in their faith by the discoveries of science.
It would seem to me that they are embarassed, and that's why they need to take the account "symbolically".
Some on this forum believe Adam actually existed, not by their own discoveries, but because they are told so by the Quran.
The sources for knowledge amongst human beings are many, but the most authoritative source is divine revelation. Once a scripture has been accepted as divine revelation, it holds the most weight as evidence.
So that obliges them to distort reality to make it match with the Quran.
Which reality has been distorted?
As man emerged about two millions years ago when did Adam live ? If you want to narrow the question down to Homo Sapiens, who emerged between half a million and a quarter million years, do it.
You can set a date for Adam whenever you wish, in light of scientific discoveries. It doesn't amke a difference.
According to our current understanding of evolution, there were several "bottle-necks" in the history of our species, where scientists have identified an extremely low number of individuals in the population. They suggest that at these points in our timeline, a great number of species died out, and the species procreated from these indivduals. Adam (pbuh) may have been aty any of those bottle-necks.
