I haven't been on these boards very long, but I would like to clear up what seems to me to be an obvious misconception -- namely not every group that uses the name "Church" in their title is Christian.
The most recent one I read was a thread asking about Scientology, and another person responded that he thought it was a sect of Christianity. Scientology is not Christian, and no Scientologist would claim that it is.
LIkewise Jehovah's Witnesses are not a sect within Christianity.
Some other groups that you may mistakenly think are Christian because of their name, but which would disagree with any of the teachings of the rest of Christians include:
The Christian Science Church -- they do not think that there even is a real physical world, that the only thing that is real is truth and everything else is error. So, people don't even really get sick, and if you focus on the truth you won't ever get sick.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (usually known as the Mormons) -- they call themselves Christians, but they deny that anyone else is a Christians, so they are basically saying that no other church believes the same as them. Thus, if you think that other groups are Christians, then you are saying that they are wrong and they are not Christians, for they refused to be grouped with any other Christian Churches. They God is a corpreal being living in heaven where he and his wives have given birth to many spirit children. It is important for Mormons to have as many children on this earth as possible, because that is how these spirit children are born into this world. Then if you go through all of the ceremonies of the Mormons and do good things you will go to the hightest of many levels of heaven where you too will become a God of your own planet and have many spirit children and the whole process repeats itself over again.
The Unification Church -- This group believes that Rev. Sun Myung Moon and his wife are a divine couple and have gotten the nickname "Moonies". They teach somethig they call the eternal principle which is a mix of a little bit of several different religions.
There are many others groups. Of course, it is true that there are also many denominations within Christiandom. This no doubt makes it hard for those who know little about Christianity. I just ask that you not consider everything that uses the term "Church" in its name to be Christian. Even among those groups that are truly Christian you will find there are many different beliefs on minor issues. But on major issues, such as who is Jesus Christ, all Christian groups agree.
Re: Not every group that uses the name "Church" is Christian.
like lolwatever, i am wondering if there is any "objective" criteria as to who is christian and who is not? i mean some muslims will consider others as kufr because they disapprove of certain practices.
i have always considered a person christian if they believe that jesus died for their sins, that jesus is divine, that baptism is necessary to go to heaven and that have the holy communion ritual.
i don't think mormons would agree at all that they are not christian. i mention them because i have a mormon friend, so i know more about them.
you wrote " But on major issues, such as who is Jesus Christ, all Christian groups agree." don't the mormons believe in the things i mentioned above?
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
Re: Not every group that uses the name "Church" is Christian.
Salaam,
i found, imho, Jehovah Witness's to at least be some of the most sincere and dedicated "Christians" that i ever met, although we can leave out the "Jackson family" kay:
i was raised Irish Roman Catholic, but simply felt that most of what they teached was in direct conflict with what the Bible says. i was forced to attend until my confirmation, but after that free to choose. according to what i see "Christians" doing, i could NOT call myself a 'Christian".
imho, ALL Christians should observe the Sabbath and all of the ancient Israeli Holy Days. NOT believe that Jesus (as) was the son of G-d. and NOT pretend that they were owners of a get out of "Jail" free card.
imho, Christmas and Easter should not be observed AT ALL, pork should NOT be eaten and ALL Jewish dietary laws should be followed.
imho, "Christians" need to take a serious look at the councils of Nicea in 325 CE and 350 CE. the emporers of Rome/Byzantium hijacked the religion.
imho, ALL of those who followed the practices of Jesus (as) were eventualy killed by "Pagan" Rome as well as "Christian" Rome.
that's based on roughly 20 to 30 years of my own research.
Re: Not every group that uses the name "Church" is Christian.
Yep, good post, for example the "Church of Scientology" also I'd like to add that not every group who use islam in their name are muslims for example the "Nation of Islam".
Re: Not every group that uses the name "Church" is Christian.
Salaam,
But the question is this..
If they refer to themselves as christians.....who are we to say they are not?
I mean if i were to have a debate with a chritian of different sect,as you pointed out,anglican,catholics,mormon and so on...and each say they are the rightly guided ones,,,,who are we to say they are wrong?
Each believe that each is right.
But at the core i would say is if the group uses the bible then can they be termed christians.
But then again,every sect have their own bible...
So again,it is awfully easy to be misled..
It is same as in Islam,,,sunni shia and so on,we have different schools of thinking but at the core is the Quran,Allah and Propeht Muhammad saw...
We are all muslim,but you encounter some Saudi sunni who follow their brand of Islam claiming other as not Islam and so on...
Re: Not every group that uses the name "Church" is Christian.
format_quote Originally Posted by stannis
Grace Seeker forgot to include the Catholic Church. How remiss of him.
YusufNoor, I am Irish Catholic too and I failed to be offended by the things you listed. When did you convert?
Salaam,
8 months ago. oopsie, i "reverted" 8 months ago! but i figure since i started keeping the Sabbath back in the 80's, that i was "de facto" excommunicated!
oh, and i wasn't trying to offend anyone. meh, i usually put that in there...
Re: Not every group that uses the name "Church" is Christian.
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
Salaam,
i found, imho, Jehovah Witness's to at least be some of the most sincere and dedicated "Christians" that i ever met, although we can leave out the "Jackson family" kay:
i was raised Irish Roman Catholic, but simply felt that most of what they teached was in direct conflict with what the Bible says. i was forced to attend until my confirmation, but after that free to choose. according to what i see "Christians" doing, i could NOT call myself a 'Christian".
imho, ALL Christians should observe the Sabbath and all of the ancient Israeli Holy Days. NOT believe that Jesus (as) was the son of G-d. and NOT pretend that they were owners of a get out of "Jail" free card.
imho, Christmas and Easter should not be observed AT ALL, pork should NOT be eaten and ALL Jewish dietary laws should be followed.
imho, "Christians" need to take a serious look at the councils of Nicea in 325 CE and 350 CE. the emporers of Rome/Byzantium hijacked the religion.
imho, ALL of those who followed the practices of Jesus (as) were eventualy killed by "Pagan" Rome as well as "Christian" Rome.
that's based on roughly 20 to 30 years of my own research.
peace
My point was not to disrespect anyone's personal sincerity. I think there are many sincere individuals of many different belief systems in this world. But in line with the point that FBI made that not every group that uses the name "Islam" is truly Islam (i.e., the Nation of Islam), so too I think it is important that people be aware that not every group that uses the name "Church" or "Christian" is truly Christian.
My great-grandfather was a Jehovah's Witness, but even he would agree with me that his beliefs are NOT the same as those of Christianity.
Re: Not every group that uses the name "Church" is Christian.
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
that's based on roughly 20 to 30 years of my own research.
peace
Assalamu alaikum brother
Interesting, I am doing my own research of early christian History mainly over the net, trying to get an idea of different mode of belief that existed until the council of Nicea. My slow research is mainly based on the scripture's available and I have access to.
At the moment I am using three main web-site the "earlychristianwiting", Nahammadi Library and Biblegateway.
Any tips?
Last edited by Skillganon; 11-25-2006 at 05:50 PM.
Re: Not every group that uses the name "Church" is Christian.
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
like lolwatever, i am wondering if there is any "objective" criteria as to who is christian and who is not? i mean some muslims will consider others as kufr because they disapprove of certain practices.
i have always considered a person christian if they believe that jesus died for their sins, that jesus is divine, that baptism is necessary to go to heaven and that have the holy communion ritual.
i don't think mormons would agree at all that they are not christian. i mention them because i have a mormon friend, so i know more about them.
you wrote " But on major issues, such as who is Jesus Christ, all Christian groups agree." don't the mormons believe in the things i mentioned above?
Mormons do call themselves Christian. And probably there are many non-Mormons who would consider them such, for they talk about Jesus using many of the same words that other Christian groups do. But having spent time among them, I learned that they meant quite different things from what I meant by certain phrases, though we used the very same words.
There are dozens of other similar examples where Mormons differ from all other groups that use the term Christian. In response to this, what Mormons say is that it is because they are the only true Christian group. And no one else is. While Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, and the many different protestant denominations may all have different some beliefs, they do recognize each other as being Christian. Mormons say that none of these groups are truly Christian, that they are they alone are the true keepers of the faith. They are of the opinion, just like Islam, that the teachings of Christians became corrupt. However, there answer is a different prophet, a man named Joseph Smith, who had other books reveale to him. The most famous is the Book of Mormon, hence their name. But the books that contain teachings which make them so different are found in The Pearl of Great Price and Doctrines and Covenants. They claim they also accept the Bible, but they get their teachings from these other books that no other Christian groups accept. That is why I, and most other persons who study theology put Mormons in a different group from other Christians.
Let me just give a few examples: There are over 1000 groups that use the name Christian. Of them, Mormons are the only ones that think that God is not a spirit but possesses a physical body. Mormons also believe that a living believer can be baptized and change the eternal destiny of a person who has previously died even if they believed wrongly. While Mormons claim to believe in the Trinity, what they mean by it is 3 distinctly separate Gods. No other Christian group believes such things.
So, while Mormons may say that they believe in Jesus just like other Christians, what they really mean something completely different than what other Christians mean.
While it is hard to have an objective standard for something as subjective as faith, I think that you will generally be ok if you use the following criteria to define Christian: "A faith group, or member thereof, who accepts the Bible as both an inspired work and a sufficient record of all that is necessary for salvation, accepts the God of the Bible as the one and only true God, and who views Jesus Christ as the savior of mankind."
Mormons accept as sacred texts that Christians do not.
Mormons have a different view of the nature and character of God.
And Mormons believe that in addition to belief in Jesus there are certain ritual acts one must perform to be saved -- that Jesus does not save us, but is only a model and that we save ourselves.
If you call Mormons Christians, it would really be inappropriate to call any other groups as Christians and identify them as being like Mormons in anyway, for they do not believe the same.
Re: Not every group that uses the name "Church" is Christian.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skillganon
Assalamu alaikum brother
Interesting, I am doing my own research of early christian History mainly over the net, trying to get an idea of different mode of belief that existed until the council of Nicea. My slow research is mainly based on the scripture's available and I have access to.
At the moment I am using three main web-site the "earlychristianwiting", Nahammadi Library and Biblegateway.
Any tips?
Hey, that's great. May I make a few recommendations?
First, two text books: A History of Christianity in the World: From Persecution to Uncertainty, edited by Clyde Manschreck, Prentice Hall publishers.
A History of Christianity: Readings in the History of the Church (Vol. 1, The Early and Medieval Church), edit by Ray Petry, Baker Books.
An excellent online magazine with many articles that you would probably find of interest is: Christian History and Biography
This internet site may be more academic than you are interested in XTalk -- The Historical Jesus and Early Christian Origins (Crosstalk2). Here is how they describe themselves --> "This moderated list is intended primarily for professional scholars engaged in Historical Jesus research. But graduate students, members of the clergy, and others interested in the serious academic study of the Historical Jesus and early Christian origins are also welcome to participate, as long as they respect the academic focus of the List. Contributors who are not professional scholars are expected to be, or to become, familiar and conversant not only with the sources, tools, and methods used in the critical study and exegesis of the New Testament and other ancient writings but also with the history and contours of Historical Jesus studies, both classical and recent." Even if you decide you're not interested in this academic of a discussion, they do have a list of many online resources you can check out.
And lastly, another book, in the interest of full disclosure this one is by a friend and former classmate of mine, Hellenists and Hebrews: Reappraising Division within the Earliest Church, by Craig G. Hill, Fortress Press.
I hope they help you some.
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 11-25-2006 at 07:19 PM.
Reason: updated with additional resources
Another book, in the interest of full disclosure this one is by a friend and former classmate of mine, Hellenists and Hebrews: Reappraising Division within the Earliest Church, by Craig G. Hill, Fortress Press.
Re: Not every group that uses the name "Church" is Christian.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skillganon
Assalamu alaikum brother
Interesting, I am doing my own research of early christian History mainly over the net, trying to get an idea of different mode of belief that existed until the council of Nicea. My slow research is mainly based on the scripture's available and I have access to.
At the moment I am using three main web-site the "earlychristianwiting", Nahammadi Library and Biblegateway.
Any tips?
Asalaamu Alaykum,
i did all of this before i had internet...though once you get to the end of the 1st century, the beliefs started to change.
i DO recomend the Farah Fenton translation of scripture; he DOESN'T change the words based uopn his beliefs, as do ALL other translations. the Sabbath, he doesn't change to Sunday, for instance...
i did have a book that the title was Pre-Nicean Fathers, but almost anything that you find, once you get a third of the way into it, you'll find the message fully corrupted.
i think PBS still has the transcipts for From Jesus To Christ the first Christians online. they discuss how the first Christians actually kept the Sabbath WITH the Jews!
also do a little research on the 2 main Pharasitical schools of Shimei and Hillel. you'll find that the message of Jesus/Isa(as) is nearly identical to Hillel.
when i have time, i'll check some of those links provided. (Insha'Allah)
Re: Not every group that uses the name "Church" is Christian.
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Mormons do call themselves Christian. And probably there are many non-Mormons who would consider them such, for they talk about Jesus using many of the same words that other Christian groups do. But having spent time among them, I learned that they meant quite different things from what I meant by certain phrases, though we used the very same words.
There are dozens of other similar examples where Mormons differ from all other groups that use the term Christian. In response to this, what Mormons say is that it is because they are the only true Christian group. And no one else is. While Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, and the many different protestant denominations may all have different some beliefs, they do recognize each other as being Christian. Mormons say that none of these groups are truly Christian, that they are they alone are the true keepers of the faith. They are of the opinion, just like Islam, that the teachings of Christians became corrupt. However, there answer is a different prophet, a man named Joseph Smith, who had other books reveale to him. The most famous is the Book of Mormon, hence their name. But the books that contain teachings which make them so different are found in The Pearl of Great Price and Doctrines and Covenants. They claim they also accept the Bible, but they get their teachings from these other books that no other Christian groups accept. That is why I, and most other persons who study theology put Mormons in a different group from other Christians.
Let me just give a few examples: There are over 1000 groups that use the name Christian. Of them, Mormons are the only ones that think that God is not a spirit but possesses a physical body. Mormons also believe that a living believer can be baptized and change the eternal destiny of a person who has previously died even if they believed wrongly. While Mormons claim to believe in the Trinity, what they mean by it is 3 distinctly separate Gods. No other Christian group believes such things.
So, while Mormons may say that they believe in Jesus just like other Christians, what they really mean something completely different than what other Christians mean.
While it is hard to have an objective standard for something as subjective as faith, I think that you will generally be ok if you use the following criteria to define Christian: "A faith group, or member thereof, who accepts the Bible as both an inspired work and a sufficient record of all that is necessary for salvation, accepts the God of the Bible as the one and only true God, and who views Jesus Christ as the savior of mankind."
Mormons accept as sacred texts that Christians do not.
Mormons have a different view of the nature and character of God.
And Mormons believe that in addition to belief in Jesus there are certain ritual acts one must perform to be saved -- that Jesus does not save us, but is only a model and that we save ourselves.
If you call Mormons Christians, it would really be inappropriate to call any other groups as Christians and identify them as being like Mormons in anyway, for they do not believe the same.
thanks for your reply - interesting info about mormons.
you and i have different criteria for defining a christian. in addition to the ones i mentioned earlier, i think if someone calls himself a christian - then he's a christian. i don't really see how being very different from all other christians makes you a non-christian as long as your sect believes that jesus died for your sins, that jesus is divine, that baptism is necessary to go to heaven and that have the holy communion ritual - which mormons do.
but then, you can't expect an agnostic to use the same criteria as a pastor!
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
Re: Not every group that uses the name "Church" is Christian.
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
thanks for your reply - interesting info about mormons.
you and i have different criteria for defining a christian. in addition to the ones i mentioned earlier, i think if someone calls himself a christian - then he's a christian. i don't really see how being very different from all other christians makes you a non-christian as long as your sect believes that jesus died for your sins, that jesus is divine, that baptism is necessary to go to heaven and that have the holy communion ritual - which mormons do.
but then, you can't expect an agnostic to use the same criteria as a pastor!
How about this? I have decided that if you were born in the Americas, then you are a native American. That's my definition. Thus Mexican nationals illegally immigrating into California have as much right to be there as anyone else, because they were born on the American continent and are native Americans by my definition. It doesn't matter what the government or the citizenry of the United States of America says.
It's ok that you and I have different definitions. I understand where you are coming from. I hope you also understand that Mormons are excluding me from their group every bit as much as I am saying they don't fit accroding to my definition. The term they use for everyone who claims to be a Christian but is not a Mormon is apostate.
Re: Not every group that uses the name "Church" is Christian.
as long as your sect believes that jesus died for your sins, that jesus is divine, that baptism is necessary to go to heaven and that have the holy communion ritual
Southern Baptists don't believe that baptism is necessary for heaven. It is a step of obedience to Christ and symbolic of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. It is entirely possible for a person to accept Christ and die in an accident on the way to be baptised.
Re: Not every group that uses the name "Church" is Christian.
format_quote Originally Posted by dougmusr
Southern Baptists don't believe that baptism is necessary for heaven. It is a step of obedience to Christ and symbolic of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. It is entirely possible for a person to accept Christ and die in an accident on the way to be baptised.
Good point! Actually I don't believe that baptism is necessary for heaven, nor do we teach it in the United Methodist Church. And what I know of Lutherans, Presbyterians, and probably 60-80% of other Christian groups, they also do not think it is necessary for heaven. Nor does it guarantee heaven. It is like dougmusr said, a step of obedience and a form of identifying one's self with Christ.
Re: Not every group that uses the name "Church" is Christian.
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
How about this? I have decided that if you were born in the Americas, then you are a native American. That's my definition. Thus Mexican nationals illegally immigrating into California have as much right to be there as anyone else, because they were born on the American continent and are native Americans by my definition. It doesn't matter what the government or the citizenry of the United States of America says.
It's ok that you and I have different definitions. I understand where you are coming from. I hope you also understand that Mormons are excluding me from their group every bit as much as I am saying they don't fit accroding to my definition. The term they use for everyone who claims to be a Christian but is not a Mormon is apostate.
i was told that they used "gentile" to apply to non-mormons, including other christians
but yes, i do understand what you're saying. thanks
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
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