I have noticed that there are threads for the purpose of asking christians and jews questions about their religions, but none for Sikhs. I also noticed that I know squat about the sikh religion.
So I have started this thread with the hopes that our sikh members will answer our questions when they have time.
Please, no debating. Just questions and answers. If you don't agee with a particular point that is made in an answer, then start another thread for the purpose of debate.
I would first ask if a sikh member could just give us a quick summary of their religion.
Second, a specific question. A member used the name Waheguru, in a post. Who is Waheguru?
Hello Snakelegs, ajust a little correction. No, Bulle Shah's writings are not included in Guru Granth Sahib :-), although I have heard he was close to Guru Gobind Singh Ji...
^^Bro this isn't the thread for it. Stop going off topic everyone. If you want to ask him that, do so in a new thread or PM him.
Tayyaba,
I wanna see if Aman chose Islam, if true, after carefully looking at every aspect of Islam and not pre-maturely. He may have chosen Islam because he felt rejected by some Sikh fanatics.
---I read elsewhere that hhread. e visited Holy Kaaba. It seems impossible as only Muslims are allowed to enter the holy mosque. Can u describe the matter ,pl ? Thanks
Pl. dont' just say that Kaaba came to him ....i was told that in other forum....show some proof
[B]LOL Yes the Kaaba came up to him in indai.....
I think mean, the Kaaba rotated. It has been discussed before in the "Sikhism' thread.
OK here is how it goes.....Although wheather you believe it or not relevant.
Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji got Into Mecca!
For over twenty years from about 1497, Guru Nanak had been on his travels. He had visited all parts of India. He had been to the east as far as Assam and Burma. To the South he had gone as far as Sri Lanka (previously called Ceylon). To the north he had gone even to places outside India. Crossing the Himalayas, he had visited Tibet and China. He had travelled on foot. What a tireless traveller he was!
He had travelled so long and so far, but he was not yet satisfied. He now decided to go towards the west. His aim was to visit Muslim countries. He wanted to visit also, the Muslim mosques in those countries. He chose Mecca as the first such place to visit. Mecca is in Saudi Arabia. It contains the most sacred Muslim mosque called the "Kaaba" or the House of God. A visit to Mecca by a Muslim is called hajj. A Muslim visitor to Mecca is called a hajji. Guru Nanak decided to go on hajj.
He put on the blue dress, worn by hajjis. He took a fakir’s staff, or stick in his hand. The Guru carried a book of his sacred songs or hymns. Like the hajjis, he had with him a iota or jug. He also carried a mat like the hajjis. Dressed thus, he looked like a typical hajji. All along, he acted in every way as hajjis did. Bhai Mardana was with him. He, too, was dressed as a hajji.
Boarding a ship at Surat, he reached the Arabian coast. From there, he walked on foot. He reached Mecca in due course.By the time he arrived in Mecca, he was very tired. His feet were sore. He needed rest. So he lay down to rest himself. He knew quite well that no Muslim would lie with his feet towards the Kaaba. But he wanted to draw the attention of the hajjis, so that he could teach them his wisdom.
So, he lay down with his feet towards the Kaaba. All who saw him lying thus, began to shout and cry in anger. They gathered around him. They shouted at him. They threatened him. One of them was angrier than the others. His name was Jiwan. He kicked the Guru and said, ‘Who are you? Why do you lie with your feet towards the House of God?’
The Guru did not show any anger. In fact, he was never angry with anybody. He smiled at Jiwan. In a calm, sweet voice he said to him, ‘Brother, don’t be angry. I am very tired. I need rest. I respect the House of God as much as any one. Please turn my feet in a direction in which God or the House of God is not.’
Jiwan took hold of the Guru’s feet. He dragged them in the opposite direction. Then he lifted his eyes. He saw the Kaaba standing in the direction of the Guru’s feet. He turned the Guru’s feet in another direction. The Kaaba was seen standing in that direction. Jiwan dragged the Guru’s feet to this side and that. He dragged them round and round. The Kaaba was seen to be going round and round. It was always, in the direction of the Guru’s feet. His feet were always towards the Kaaba.
Jiwan and the other hajjis were all filled with wonder. Jiwan let go of the Guru’s feet. The Guru got up and said, ‘Don’t you see that God’s House is in every direction? I tell you He dwells in every place, in every heart. He is in your hearts. He is also in mine.’
In the morning, a number of learned hajjis gathered around the Guru. They held religious discussions with him. He satisfied every one of them. He explained to them his golden rules of life and religion. They listened to him with utmost attention. They agreed to live and act as advised by him. One of them said to the Guru, ‘Holy Sir, give me something which will always remind me of you.’ The Guru gave him his pair of sandals. They were respectfully kept in the Kaaba for some time. That Muslim fakir then returned to India. He brought the sandals with him. He kept them in his temple at Uch in Bahawalpur, now in Pakistan.
NOW Please understand Sikhs do not believe in images, but here is how Guru Ji dressed, which would lead you to beleive he looks liek a muslim so he didn't lie or decieve to get into Mecca at all.
These two pictures show by his turban he looks like a muslim and a holy man. Muslims and Hindus revvered him. Just because you don't believe, does not mean he was not a Prophet. - He's known as Hindu Ka Guru Musulman ka Pir - Nanak Lama by buddhists - No other Prophet from ANY other religion was revved by other faiths.
Bhai Gurdas is considered the first interpreter of Gurbani. His writings are considered key to understanding the Sikh holy scriptures.
Guru Nanak in Mecca Pauris: 32-34
Pauri 32.1 Baba phiri Makkey gia neel bastatr Dharey banwari.
Pauri 32.2 Aasa hathh Kitab Kachh kuja bang mussala dhari.
Pauri 32.4 Ja Baba suta raat nounn vali maharabey paiye pasari.
Pauri 32.5 Jivan maari latt di kehara suta kuffar kuffari.
Pauri 32.7 Tangon Pakkaur ghasitia phiria Makka kalla dikhari.
Pauri 32.8 Hoey hairan kareni Juhari.
Pauri 33.3 Puchhan Pholi kitab nounn Hindu vada ke Musalmanoi.
Pauri 33.4 Baba Aakhey hajian subh amlan bajhau dono roi.
Pauri 33.5 Hindu Musalmaan dui dargah andari lahani na dhoi.
Pauri 33.7 Karani bakhili aapi vichi Ram Rahim Kuthai Khaloi.
Pauri 33.8 Rahey Saitani dunia goi.
Pauri 34.2 Jithai jai jagat vichi babe bajhu na khali jai.
Pauri 34.3 Ghari ghari baba pujiai Hindu Musalman guai.
Pauri 34.7 Ugavanahu te athavano naukhand prithami sabh jhukai.
In these pauris Bhai Gurdas describes the visit of Baba Nanak to Mecca. Donning blue clothes, holding a stick in one hand, book under the arm pit and carrying his prayer mat and a lota (jug) Baba reaches Mecca and relates the well known anecdote about Guru Nanak keeping his feet towards the Mehrab at night. Mullah named Jiwan hits him with his leg saying that who is this Kafir keeping his feet towards the house of God and holding Nanak's legs pulls them to change their direction and sees the Mecca moving in the same direction.
They asked Baba Nanak to open and search in his book and tell them as to who is better, Hindu or Muslim. Baba replied to the Haj Pilgrims that without good deeds both would come to grief. Both Hindus and Muslims would not be accepted in the court of the Lord. In their verbal duals they denounce Raam and Rahim. The world is following the ways of the Satan. Baba won over everyone. Wherever you go in the world you would not find a place where Baba was not known. From East to the West, all nine divisions of the earth bowed to him (Nanak).
Last edited by AvarAllahNoor; 02-12-2007 at 01:27 AM.
Ėk Gusā Alhu Mėrā
The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah.
Dhan Guru Arjan Dev Mahraaj Ji!
Kal Meh Bėḏ Atharbaṇ Hū Nā Kẖuḏā Alhu Bẖa.
In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God.
chill man, I am following islam so thats how it is.
I think Brother Aman has made it clear, so thereafter if any posts are made questioning his Islam, trying to change him, or trying to cause doubts in him, they will be deleted.
“Do not argue with your Lord on behalf of your soul, rather argue with your soul on behalf of your Lord.” - Dhul-Nun
"It is the very pursuit of happiness that thwarts happiness." - Victor Frankl
AvarAllahNoor;653079]: LOL Yes the Kaaba came up to him in indai.....
From East to the West, all nine divisions of the earth bowed to him (Nanak).
---what ????? Is he God ? If not , why bow to him ? He taught his followers to worship him ?
I read that Sikhs pray like this , I seek refuse under the sword of Guru …….i forgot the name…. why don’t u ask refuse in God Almighty ?
He reached Mecca in due course….. he didn't lie or decieve to get into Mecca at all.
---before performing Hajj , he declared his Shahada ( became a Muslim ) ? If not , then if he only dressed like Muslim , then sorry to say but surely it’s a deception.
I don’t think , ur respected Guru Ji willingly cheated anybody . So , can it be possible that he embraced Islam ?
He saw the Kaaba standing in the direction of the Guru’s feet. He turned the Guru’s feet in another direction. The Kaaba was seen standing in that direction…… ….The Guru gave him his pair of sandals. They were respectfully kept in the Kaaba for some time
---any non-Sikh historian mentioned about moving /shifting of Kaaba & kept of Sandals inside the Kaaba ?
Muslims remove shoes/sandals before entering to any mosque & u r saying Muslims kept sandals of a Sikh Guru inside their holiest mosque ?
If really Kaaba shifted for a Sikh Guru & his sandals were considered as that holy to be kept in Kaaba , surely those became hot news …….. pl. mention other sources.
That Muslim fakir then returned to India. He brought the sandals with him. He kept them in his temple at Uch in Bahawalpur, now in Pakistan
---what temple u r talking about or is it a mosque
( Muslims prayers place ) ? Are u sure , Guru Ji’s sandals are kept inside the mosque ? Any photo available ? Not the picture drawn by an artist ,a real photograph ?
Just because you don't believe, does not mean he was not a Prophet. - He's known as Hindu Ka Guru Musulman ka Pir –
---pir is not a Prophet . Prophets were chosen by God Almighty.
There are hundreds of Muslim pirs ….they are not Prophets .
Muhammed (p) was the last Prophet & seal of the
Prophets (pbut ).
No other Prophet from ANY other religion was revved by other faiths.
--- revved means respected ? Well , Muslims respect all the Biblical Prophets ;such as Moses (p) , Jesus (p) & others . Most probably , it was u who said Sikhs also believe these 2 Prophets (pbut ) ?
They asked Baba Nanak to open and search in his book and tell them as to who is better, Hindu or Muslim.
----why asked a Sikh about Hindus ? Are they ( Hindus & Sikhs ) same ?
Hope , I did not hurt ur feelings.
Last edited by Muslim Woman; 02-12-2007 at 04:06 PM.
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
....I am a Christian. Part of my family is Muslim.
---that’s interesting
Note the pattern of the Christian deacon you lifted up as an example. He took time to learn the prayers, to pray in line with you
--- I did not understand it . Is it allowed for a Christian to declare ( falsely ) that he is a Muslim ?
Just to know how Muslim pray or fast , one does not need to do so . Anybody can come to mosque & watch how Muslims pray without giving them the wrong info that I m a Muslim.
If bro Dawud visits Sikhs holy place , he does not need them to give any false impression that he is interested to be a Sikh . Anyway , i m not expert .....it's just my opinion.
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
Nobody can say for sure. So, it simply makes sense not to have blind faith and believe what makese the most sense...
i agree entirely,
appeals to reason though dont always work because people see following a book as reasonable. for example i believe the Quran and sunnah to be true so therefore use them as additional sources of evidence to base logical decisions upon.
i assume the sikhs see the Guru Granth Sahib as the same and hence why i am studying it.
So if i can show you flaws in the Guru Granth Sahib would you agree that using reason and sense that you religion is also flawed and untrue?
There are at least 6/7 threads about Sikhism on this forum. Go and read up on it!
I'd lvoe to have a face to face debate.
i would prefer to say discussion, debate conjures up images of ahmed - v - swaggert etc and although i find them informative i do not think many christians would have gained benefit from seeing their preacher smashed.
so better a discussion where we discuss commonality and difference in a polite manner.
appeals to reason though dont always work because people see following a book as reasonable. for example i believe the Quran and sunnah to be true so therefore use them as additional sources of evidence to base logical decisions upon.
i assume the sikhs see the Guru Granth Sahib as the same and hence why i am studying it.
So if i can show you flaws in the Guru Granth Sahib would you agree that using reason and sense that you religion is also flawed and untrue?
Abu Abdullah
As I have said before, Guru Granth Sahib is perfect. Any personal or religious aspect that doesn't agree with Guru Granth Sahib is flawed in itself. Even if something from Guru Granth Sahib doesn't make sense to you, it doesn't mean it's flawed. All it means that you aren't capable of understanding where gurus and saint coming from.
There are reasons why you are Muslim and I consider myself a Sikh. Main reason is that there is difference in how our minds work. So what makes sense to you might not make sense to me. You may look at religion differently than I do. For you, religion could mean whatever the book says and for me, what logically and ethically makes sense.
As I have said before, Guru Granth Sahib is perfect. Any personal or religious aspect that doesn't agree with Guru Granth Sahib is flawed in itself. Even if something from Guru Granth Sahib doesn't make sense to you, it doesn't mean it's flawed. All it means that you aren't capable of understanding where gurus and saint coming from.
There are reasons why you are Muslim and I consider myself a Sikh. Main reason is that there is difference in how our minds work. So what makes sense to you might not make sense to me. You may look at religion differently than I do. For you, religion could mean whatever the book says and for me, what logically and ethically makes sense.
hang on a minute, that is a circular argument...
the Guru Granth Sahib is perfect to you, therefore whatever is in it is true and anything in contradiction is false, so if i show you a contradiction it is because i dont understand?
your own position seems to be sikhi teachings are true because they are in the Guru Granth Sahib, but just a few posts above you say we need to use reason - surely that applies to the Guru Granth Sahib also?
therefore if i can show you a flaws and contradictions it means it is false, you cannot deny that logical position.
i have subjected the Quran to the same process before i became muslim and i am only applying the same criterion to the other books to look at them logically and find the flaws if any.
therefore if i can show you a flaws and contradictions it means it is false, you cannot deny that logical position.
If something appears to be a flaw or contradiction to you, all it means is that you don't understand and you are not able to comprehend the logic... That's all. It doesn't mean it's flaw or contradiction.
--- I did not understand it . Is it allowed for a Christian to declare ( falsely ) that he is a Muslim ?
Just to know how Muslim pray or fast , one does not need to do so . Anybody can come to mosque & watch how Muslims pray without giving them the wrong info that I m a Muslim.
If bro Dawud visits Sikhs holy place , he does not need them to give any false impression that he is interested to be a Sikh . Anyway , i m not expert .....it's just my opinion.
True, you did not understand. The Anglican deacon that Dawud speaks of did NOT declare that he was Muslim. He merely came alongside others who were Muslim to enter into prayer. I have done this myself when attending Mosque with my daughter. The Imam and all of the other brothers and sisters knew that I was not Muslim. Indeed they knew that I am a Christian pastor, and nonetheless they invited me to join them in prayers, which I did. I assume that something similar happened with regard to this Anglican deacon that Dawud speaks of.
My point regarding the Anglican deacon is that Dawud seems to be very open to him. And also Dawud thinks, or at least hopes, that perhaps he would receive the same reception in visiting with the Sikhs. And indeed he might. But I was cautioning him with regard to the manner of approach that he chose.
Dawud, in his opening posts, suggests that he might go to show others how they were in error and have a false religion. That is not how he described the Anglican deacon coming to the mosque that he attends. Rather that man came respectful of Muslim faith. I am suggesting to Dawud, that while he may old the religion of the Sikhs to be in error and false, that if he wants to be well received he should still approach them in a resepctful way. I also suggested to him that if this Anglican deacon had entered the mosque in a manner similar to how he has suggested that he might go and visit the Sikhs, that the Anglican deacon may not have found the same cordial reception that he has.
To put it in colloquial speach, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 02-12-2007 at 05:53 PM.
If something appears to be a flaw or contradiction to you, all it means is that you don't understand and you are not able to comprehend the logic... That's all. It doesn't mean it's flaw or contradiction.
this is what i mean, you are not using reason, that is blind acceptence of a concept of the Guru Granth Sahib to be true without questioning.
i also accept the Quran to be true absolutely as you trust your book but my reason meant i tested it to see if it was true before i became muslim as i couldnt accept christianity blindly so nor could i accept islam blindly and nor should you accept sikhi blindly.
if blind ritual is so dangerous in your faith surely blind faith without questioning is far worse?
True, you did not understand. The Anglican deacon that Dawud speaks of did NOT declare that he was Muslim. He merely came alongside others who were Muslim to enter into prayer. I have done this myself when attending Mosque with my daughter. The Imam and all of the other brothers and sisters knew that I was not Muslim. Indeed they knew that I am a Christian pastor, and nonetheless they invited me to join them in prayers, which I did. I assume that something similar happened with regard to this Anglican deacon that Dawud speaks of.
My point regarding the Anglican deacon is that Dawud seems to be very open to him. And also Dawud thinks, or at least hopes, that perhaps he would receive the same reception in visiting with the Sikhs. And indeed he might. But I was cautioning him with regard to the manner of approach that he chose.
Dawud, in his opening posts, suggests that he might go to show others how they were in error and have a false religion. That is not how he described the Anglican deacon coming to the mosque that he attends. Rather that man came respectful of Muslim faith. I am suggesting to Dawud, that while he may old the religion of the Sikhs to be in error and false, that if he wants to be well received he should still approach them in a resepctful way. I also suggested to him that if this Anglican deacon had entered the mosque in a manner similar to how he has suggested that he might go and visit the Sikhs, that the Anglican deacon may not have found the same cordial reception that he has.
To put it in colloquial speach, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."
i agree i would try to approach respectfully but i would be open and honest with my intentions also as i cannot lie in normal life, nor when trying to talk to others about my faith.
and the christian deacon does indeed state he is muslim and christian at the same time, strange as that is!
this is what i mean, you are not using reason, that is blind acceptence of a concept of the Guru Granth Sahib to be true without questioning.
i also accept the Quran to be true absolutely as you trust your book but my reason meant i tested it to see if it was true before i became muslim as i couldnt accept christianity blindly so nor could i accept islam blindly and nor should you accept sikhi blindly.
if blind ritual is so dangerous in your faith surely blind faith without questioning is far worse?
Abu Abdullah
No, I don't accept Sikhi blindly. Sikhi is the closest to humanity one could get. The only difference is what logically makes sense to me may not logically make sense to you and vice versa. We, as humans, have certain limit and you may not go beyond that limit.
See we are so different that you don't even understand where I am coming from :-)
i agree i would try to approach respectfully but i would be open and honest with my intentions also as i cannot lie in normal life, nor when trying to talk to others about my faith.
That's all I was saying. Glad you understood.
and the christian deacon does indeed state he is muslim and christian at the same time, strange as that is!
Yes, that is strange. Has he always said that, or only after attending the mosque for a period of time?
appeals to reason though dont always work because people see following a book as reasonable. for example i believe the Quran and sunnah to be true so therefore use them as additional sources of evidence to base logical decisions upon.
i assume the sikhs see the Guru Granth Sahib as the same and hence why i am studying it.
So if i can show you flaws in the Guru Granth Sahib would you agree that using reason and sense that you religion is also flawed and untrue?
Abu Abdullah
The lack of understanding of a verse or phrase, does not mean it's flawed. Like PCS said. You can't find a flaw. It's the word of God. Disagree with it, but it's not flawed. Theolgians have tried but failed.
Ėk Gusā Alhu Mėrā
The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah.
Dhan Guru Arjan Dev Mahraaj Ji!
Kal Meh Bėḏ Atharbaṇ Hū Nā Kẖuḏā Alhu Bẖa.
In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God.
i kept reading though that sikhs reject rituals but yet they are doing rituals and hence my confusion.
can you pm me any articles on the difference in feeling here between ritual and blind ritual? others have contradicted you that is all.
but i would say all would say they are against blind ritual without understanding the reasons for it etc. this isnt something particular to sikhi.
Abu Abdullah
1 - anDhaa kachaa kach nikach. ||1|| rahaa-o.
If I am pleasing to Him, then that is my pilgrimage and cleansing bath. Without pleasing Him, what good are ritual cleansings?
2 - mannai mag na chalai panth.
The faithful do not follow empty religious rituals.
3 - manmukh karam kamaavnay ji-o dohaagan tan seegaar.
The self-willed manmukh performs religious rituals, like the unwanted bride decorating her body.
Meaningless rituals such as going hajj, bathing in the ganges because this apparently 'cleanses the soul'
Ėk Gusā Alhu Mėrā
The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah.
Dhan Guru Arjan Dev Mahraaj Ji!
Kal Meh Bėḏ Atharbaṇ Hū Nā Kẖuḏā Alhu Bẖa.
In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God.
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