If God Created the Universe Who Created God?

i stated earlier that i hated philosophy but here we go:

1. There is an efficient cause for everything; nothing can be the efficient cause of itself.

2. It is not possible to regress to infinity in efficient causes.

3. To take away the cause is to take away the effect.

4. If there be no first cause then there will be no others.

Therefore, a First Cause exists (and this is God).

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

In other threads this argument has come up a few times so I thought it deserved its own thread.

Theists frequently state that the universe is too wonderful to have always existed or happened by chance. It must have been designed by intelligence.

This is a very well known argument known as the watchmaker argument.

The typical atheist counter to it is to ask "What created God?"

If the universe requires a creator because it is so complex and wonderful, certainly something even MORE complex and wonderful requires a creator even moreso. God is more wonderful and complex than the universe, so God requires a creator. No?

If no, then the premise is violated and wonderfulness and complexity does not necesitate creation.

Thoughts?

you say that:
"If the universe requires a creator because it is so complex and wonderful, certainly something even MORE complex and wonderful requires a creator even moreso. God is more wonderful and complex than the universe, so God requires a creator. No?"


thats exactly why God doesnt need a creator.his complexity and wonderfulness encompass the fact that he does not need a creator.

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


&&&

If the universe requires a creator because it is so complex and wonderful, certainly something even MORE complex and wonderful requires a creator even moreso. God is more wonderful and complex than the universe, so God requires a creator. No?

-----no, no & no.

I answered to this question in other forum. Anybody needs a Creator is creation , God does not need any creator. God is Eternal.

If there is a creator of God , then who created creator of
God ? Then again , who created creator of God's creator................very funny & illogical....No ?

useful link:

free book ,movie

Refutation of Atheism


http://www.harunyahya.com/c_refutation_atheism.php

When you look at yourself in a mirror, are you in the mirror or the mirror is in you?

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

In other threads this argument has come up a few times so I thought it deserved its own thread.

Theists frequently state that the universe is too wonderful to have always existed or happened by chance. It must have been designed by intelligence.

This is a very well known argument known as the watchmaker argument.

The typical atheist counter to it is to ask "What created God?"

If the universe requires a creator because it is so complex and wonderful, certainly something even MORE complex and wonderful requires a creator even moreso. God is more wonderful and complex than the universe, so God requires a creator. No?

If no, then the premise is violated and wonderfulness and complexity does not necesitate creation.

Thoughts?

Ok so your question is "Who created god?"

Fair enough, we'll start with defining some important terms:

1. The Creator: somoene who creates, that is, literally creates.

i.e. Can create being from non being. In other words, can bring something into existance from a state of non existance.

that is, as a consequence of the above, is Able to defy law of conservation.

e.g. According to Quantum Cosmology, this universe came into existance from nothing, literally nothing. That is, this universe was literally created.

Baking a cake or writing a poem is not an example of creation. It's just transferring matter from one form to another.

2. spacetime:

The four-dimensional continuum of one temporal and three spatial coordinates in which any event or physical object is located.

spacetime originated with the big bang, that is, prior to the existance of the instanton, there was no space or time.

instanton: "Particle" that describes the spontaneous appearance of a universe from literally nothing.

Source: http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gr/public/qg_qc.html
http://www.answers.com/topic/spacetime


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Having defined those important terms.

We can now proceed to define a characteristic of Allah, 'The Creator',

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Definition:

"The Creator is by definition something that can create being from non being (our universe for example), to suggest that 'The Creator' was created is itself a contradictory statement. On top of that, God is time independent, so to ask how he began (or what created him) isn't a valid question to start with. Because that implies something preceeded him, which contradicts the definition."

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As a result of that definition, the answer to your question naturally is 'nothing could have created him'.

Hope that helps inshalah.

all the best


ps: the definition is not one that was invented recently to adapt to new scientific models... it's compatability with quantum cosmology just serves to make it even more credible. Especially aspects like spactime independence which was possibly confusing for previous generations, hence the hadith quoted by Malaikah below.

There is really only one thing that can be said:

The Messenger of Allaah peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has warned us against some of these things. It says in the hadeeth: “The Shaytaan* comes to any one of you and says, ‘Who created such and such? Who created such and such?’ until he says, ‘Who created your Lord?’ If that happens to you, seek refuge with Allaah and give up these thoughts.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 3277

*The name of the devil.

format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah

There is really only one thing that can be said:

The Messenger of Allaah peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has warned us against some of these things. It says in the hadeeth: “The Shaytaan* comes to any one of you and says, ‘Who created such and such? Who created such and such?’ until he says, ‘Who created your Lord?’ If that happens to you, seek refuge with Allaah and give up these thoughts.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 3277

*The name of the devil.

Yeh very true, but seeing it's an athiest who's asking, we can seek refuge from him as well as explain the answer. Since the sahabah obviously didn't hve the means to understand this sorta stuff the way we're able to due to science.

And ofcourse, at the end Allah knows best!

format_quote Originally Posted by sumeyye

1. There is an efficient cause for everything; nothing can be the efficient cause of itself.

2. It is not possible to regress to infinity in efficient causes.

3. To take away the cause is to take away the effect.

4. If there be no first cause then there will be no others.

Therefore, a First Cause exists (and this is God).

I agree with hypotheses 1 and 3 (although I cannot prove them to be true). I disagree with hypothesis 2 (why is it not possible?), and therefore necessarily with 4.

The argument cannot be valid as the conclusion contradicts premise 1. You would need to amend that by adding "except a First Cause", in which case we would just be back where we started. And there is nothing that leads to the conclusion that any First Cause is God, unless, of course, you choose to define them as synonyms.

salams bro, how does that answer the original poster's qustion tho


tc salams


ps: Eric it's not as illogical as you may think it is checkout that link i plugged in my definition of spacetime for more info about things coming out of nothing as well as spacetime independence

But yes it is illogical to assume that creation from nothing could come about without a cause.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H

Greetings and peace Pygoscelis,

There are only two possible explanations, both seem to defy, logic, reason and the laws of science as we know.

Something had no beginning.

Something came from nothing.

It would be easier to understand if nothing existed at all, but we wouldn’t be here asking this question.

In the spirit of searching

Eric

God, The Supreme Being who created logic, reason and the laws of science, and isn't bound by them.

format_quote Originally Posted by AzizMostafa

Lolwatever, when you look at yourself in a mirror, are you in the mirror or the mirror is in you?
Self-solving but Thought-Provoking?!

my image is in teh mirror. But innit that kinda off topic

no offence.

tc salamz

i think this thread is for scholars in philosophy...

i don't even understand the question....

and i don't understand what is the meaning of creating god?

i'm so totally confused.

Alhamdullillah....i have a simple mind with not so big brain.