It's great to see a Baha'i here. It gets commented on from time to time but its not a faith anyone here, muslim or non-muslim knows much about (correct me if I'm wrong, folks) .
I look forward to the Baha'i apologetics!
Apologetics is a branch of systematic theology, although some experience it’s thrust in religious studies or philosophy of religion courses. Some encounter it on the internet for the first time in a more populist and usually much less academic form. As I see it, apologetics is primarily concerned with the protection of a religious position, the refutation of that position's assailants and, in the larger sense, the exploration of that position in the context of prevailing philosophies and standards in a secular society. Apologetics, to put it slightly differently, is concerned with answering critical inquiries, criticism of a position, in a rational manner. Apologetics is not possible, it seems to me anyway, without a commitment to and a desire to defend a position. For me, the core of my position I could express in one phrase: the Baha'i Revelation. With that said, though, the activity I engage in, namely, apologetics, is a never ending exercise.
The apologetics that concerns me is not so much Christian or Islamic apologetics but Baha'i apologetics. There are many points of comparison and contrast, though, which I won't go into here. Muslims or, indeed, other religions at this site will have the opportunity to defend their beliefs by the use of their particular approach to apologetics. And I will in turn defend the Baha'i Faith by the use of apologetics. In the process we will both, hopefully, learn something about our respective Faiths, our religions, which we hold to our hearts dearly.
At the outset, then, in this my first posting, my intention is simply to make this start, to state what you might call "my apologetics position." This brief statement indicates, in broad outline, where I am coming from in the weeks and months ahead. -Ron Price with thanks to Udo Schaefer, "Baha'i Apologetics?" Baha'i Studies Review, Vol. 10, 2001/2002.
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I want in this second half of my first posting here to finish, as best I can, outlining a basic orientation to Baha’i apologetics. Critical scholarly contributions or criticism raised in public or private discussions, an obvious part of apologetics, should not necessarily be equated with hostility. Often questions are perfectly legitimate aspects of a person's search for an answer to an intellectual conundrum. Paul Tillich once expressed the view that apologetics was an "answering theology."(Systematic Theology, U. of Chicago, 1967, Vol.1, p6.)
I have always been attracted to the founder of the Baha'i Faith's exhortations in discussion to "speak with words as mild as milk," with "the utmost lenience and forebearance." I am also aware that, in cases of rude or hostile attack, rebuttal with a harsher tone may well be justified. It does not help an apologist to belong to those "watchmen" the prophet Isaiah calls "dumb dogs that cannot bark."(Isaiah, 56:10) For myself, though, I avoid harsh tones and prefer irony, humour, gentle sarcasm and critique.
In its essence apologetics is a kind of confrontation, an act of revealing one's true colours, of hoisting the flag, of demonstrating essential characteristics of faith. Dialogue, as Hans Kung puts it, "does not mean self-denial."(quoted by Udo Schaefer, "Baha'i Apologetics," Baha'i Studies Review, Vol.10, 2001/2) Schaefer goes on: "A faith that is opportunistically streamlined, adapting to current trends, thus concealing its real features, features that could provoke rejection in order to be acceptable for dialogue is in danger of losing its identity."
It is almost impossible to carry the torch of truth through a crowd without getting someone's beard singed. In the weeks that follow, my postings will probably wind up singing the beards of some readers and, perhaps, my own in the process. Such are the perils of dialogue, of apologetics. Much of Baha'i apologetics derives from the experience Baha'is have of a fundamental discrepancy between secular thought and the Baha'i revelation on the other. In some ways, the gulf is unbridegeable but, so too, is this the case between the secular and much thought in the Islamic and Christian revelations. That is why, or at least one of the reasons, I have chosen to make postings at this site.
Anyway, that's all for now. It's back to the autumn winds of Tasmania, about 3 kms from the Bass Straight on the Tamar River. The geography of place is so much simpler than that of the spiritual geography readers at this site are concerned with, although I am aware that whom the gods would destroy they first make simple and simpler and simpler. I look forward to a dialogue with someone. Here in far-off Tasmania--the last stop before Antarctica, if one wants to get there through some other route than off the end of South America--your email will be gratefully received. -Ron Price, Tasmania.
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It's great to see a Baha'i here. It gets commented on from time to time but its not a faith anyone here, muslim or non-muslim knows much about (correct me if I'm wrong, folks) .
I look forward to the Baha'i apologetics!
Bahais are the Mormons of Islam.... thought I'd just share that with you.
Thank you for the welcoming note. I was removed from two Christian fundamentalist sites. All religions and philosophies seem to have liberal and conservative wings, so to speak. So far, in my 47 years as a Baha'i in the West, I have met only liberal Muslims and many Christian fundamentalists. I am aware of the other types; arn't we all?
The comparison of Mormons and Baha'is has some relevance, although like most comparisons it is only a partial truth. A more apt comarison in my experience is as follows:
Jews((most) never acccepted Christ
Christians(most) never accepted Muhammed
Muslims(most) never accepted Baha'u''llah.
Each, of course, has reams of reasons for their position.
That's all for now, folks!
Ron
I got no beef with the Bahais, they don't kill no one and are generally polite and tolerant. Perfectly adaptable to modern secular society.
In the roughly 6 million global Baha'i population there are inevitably some Baha'is whose behaviour you would not like--nor would I. One of the problems believers in all religions have is that the behaviour of the followers are not always up to scratch, to put it colloquially. If one judged/assessed a religion by the people who followed it, one would not join any of them and one would find them all wanting.
And, of course, one would not adopt any philosophy either--including atheism and agnosticism, skepticism and cynicism. Because, of course, people in all philosophies never live up to some mark that we set for them in our mind's eye or our society's eye/culture. So...we must use some other criteria for assessing a religion, or so it seems to me anyway.-Ron
AM I the first Muslim welcoming you?
Why Muslim(most)? I thought all Muslims never accepted Bahaullah?format_quote Originally Posted by RonPrice
At least some Muslims accept Ahmad Qadiani as Mujaddid.
In the 162 years of Baha'i history tens of 1000s of Muslims have become Baha'is: mullas, mujtahids and ordinary believers. Generally, I have found Muslims at internet sites very friendly even though we have serious theological differences.-Ron Price, Tasmania
what is Baha'i apologetics though? and who is Baha'u''llah?
Last edited by Malaikah; 04-28-2006 at 11:07 AM.
For now I have said enough about apologetics, but I will say that: one way of answering your question about Baha'u'llah is as follows:
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The word "Seal" (kha'tam in Arabic), in the verse above, has been interpreted to mean the: "Last", "Final", "Ornament" (something to adorn with), "Ring", "Seal" (as in a stamp sealing closed a document), "Seal" (as in seal of authority, officiating a document), and other meanings along similar lines of interpretation. Baha'is believe that all such meanings are valid and true.
Followers of all past religions have believed, based on certain verses in their holy books, that their religion would not be followed by any other. Verses such as this have prevented the Jews from accepting newer revelations: "Go thy way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."- Daniel 12:9
Another verse in the Old Testament says that the law of the Sabbath shall not be broken. For our Christian brothers and sisters, it was verses such as these below, which lead them to believe that there would not be any revelation after that of Christ:
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."- John 14:6 "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."- Luke 21:33
"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. "- Hebrews 1:1
These and many other verses that talk about, how only through Jesus (PBUH) we can know the Father, and how His words will never be replaced, were the reason that Christians would not accept any Messenger after Christ.
Going back to the meaning of the "Seal of the Prophets", this verse, and other verses about the completion of religion in Islam, have been interpreted by the majority of Muslims as indication of the finality, not only of Prophethood, but of all revelation. Other opinions and interpretations, including some by Muslim scholars, have argued that since there are many other verses in the Qur'an which explain the endless nature of the Words of God, in addition to other verses and Hadiths (traditions and sayings of the Prophet), which talk about the return of Jesus and the coming of the Mahdi, these opinions, have argued that there may be other interpretations for these verses. Some of these interpretations are mentioned here:
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Oneness of the Prophets
Many passages in religious scripture and other studies of theology hint at the idea that the Reality of the Messengers of God is the same reality, in as much as, They all came from the same Source, bringing us God's Teachings, and mirroring forth His attributes. In this light, it can be understood for example, how Jesus (PBUH) could also claim that He was the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. Here are some Muslim sources which contribute to such theme :
The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein ...- Qur'an 42:13
Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we submit to Allah (in Islam)." - Qur'an 2:136
Yeek, who are you? A fan of Waiting for Dorothy, apaprently. (Warning, graphic language on that page.)format_quote Originally Posted by mirage41
i wish there are some scholars... can discuss with you...
my intellectual maybe not at your level
*i'm just a simple muslim lady... trying to be a better muslim
I am simply trying to answer questions raised about the Baha'i Faith at this site. Just go on being a 'simple Muslim lady.' I will be a simple Baha'i man in his old age. I've been a teacher all my life in western countries. Now I am retired. I like to read.-Ron Price, Tasmania.
1) How is Muhammad's status in Baha'i?
2) The sacredness of Mecca in Baha'i?
3) Why Baha'is celebrated Novruz?
How Baha'is View Islam
"Blessing and peace be upon Him [Muhammad] through Whose advent Bathá [Mecca] is wreathed in smiles, and the sweet savours of Whose raiment have shed fragrance upon all mankind-- He Who came to protect men from that which would harm them in the world below. Exalted, immensely exalted is His station above the glorification of all beings and sanctified from the praise of the entire creation. Through His advent the tabernacle of stability and order was raised throughout the world and the ensign of knowledge hoisted among the nations. May blessings rest also upon His kindred and His companions through whom the standard of the unity of God and of His singleness was uplifted and the banners of celestial triumph were unfurled. Through them the religion of God was firmly established among His creatures and His Name magnified amidst His servants."
- Tablets of Baha'u'llah revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 162
Even though the Baha'i Faith is an independent religion and is not a sect of Islam, we find in the writings of Shoghi Effendi (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith 1921-1957), much emphasis on the need for Baha'is to help correct the many mistaken views about Islam, held by the majority of people in the West:
'There is so [much] misunderstanding about Islam in the West in general that you have to dispel. Your task is rather difficult and requires a good deal of erudition. Your chief task is to acquaint the friends with the pure teaching of the Prophet [Muhammad] as recorded in the Qur'án, and then to point out how these teachings have, throughout succeeding ages, influenced[,] nay[,] guided the course of human development. In other words you have to show the position and significance of Islam in the history of civilization.'
- Shoghi Effendi, (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith). Lights of Guidance, New Delhi: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 2nd rev. and enlarged edition, 1988, #1664.
'The mission of the American Bahá'ís is, no doubt to eventually establish the truth of Islam in the West.' - Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, #1665.
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On the importance of the study of Islam to Bahá'ís, the Guardian, Shoghi Effendi, said that for 'a proper and sound understanding of the Cause' its study was 'absolutely indispensable.'- Lights of Guidance, #1903.
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The Faith standing identified with the name of Bahá'u'lláh disclaims any intention to belittle any of the Prophets gone before Him, to whittle down any of their teachings, to obscure, however slightly, the radiance of their Revelations, to oust them from the hearts of their followers, to abrogate the fundamentals of their doctrines, to discard any of their revealed Books, or to suppress the legitimate aspirations of their adherents. Repudiating the claim of any religion to be the final revelation of God to man, disclaiming finality for His own Revelation, Bahá'u'lláh inculcates the basic principle of the relativity of religious truth, the continuity of Divine Revelation, the progressiveness of religious experience. His aim is to widen the basis of all revealed religions and to unravel the mysteries of their scriptures. He insists on the unqualified recognition of the unity of their purpose, restates the eternal verities they enshrine, coordinates their functions, distinguishes the essential and the authentic from the nonessential and spurious in their teachings, separates the God-given truths from the priest-prompted superstitions, and on this as a basis proclaims the possibility, and even prophecies the inevitability, of their unification, and the consummation of their highest hopes.
As to Muhammad, the Apostle of God, let none among His followers who read these pages, think for a moment that either Islám, or its Prophet, or His Book, or His appointed Successors, or any of His authentic teachings, have been, or are to be in any way, or to however slight a degree, disparaged. The lineage of the Báb, the descendant of the Imám Husayn; the divers and striking evidences, in Nabíl's Narrative, of the attitude of the Herald of our Faith towards the Founder, the Imáms, and the Book of Islám; the glowing tributes paid by Bahá'u'lláh in the Kitáb-i-Íqán to Muhammad and His lawful Successors, and particularly to the "peerless and incomparable" Imám Husayn; the arguments adduced, forcibly, fearlessly, and publicly by `Abdu'l-Bahá, in churches and synagogues, to demonstrate the validity of the Message of the Arabian Prophet; and last but not least the written testimonial of the Queen of Rumania, who, born in the Anglican faith and notwithstanding the close alliance of her government with the Greek Orthodox Church, the state religion of her adopted country, has, largely as a result of the perusal of these public discourses of `Abdu'l-Bahá, been prompted to proclaim her recognition of the prophetic function of Muhammad-- all proclaim, in no uncertain terms, the true attitude of the Bahá'í Faith towards its parent religion.
____________________________
Write again: this is just a startt to answering your questions.-Ron Price, Tasmania
wow, never heard a religion praising Muhammad as the Baha'i Faith. Even have duty to correct misconception about Islam.format_quote Originally Posted by RonPriceHow Baha'is View Islam
"Blessing and peace be upon Him [Muhammad] through Whose advent Bathá [Mecca] is wreathed in smiles, and the sweet savours of Whose raiment have shed fragrance upon all mankind-- He Who came to protect men from that which would harm them in the world below. Exalted, immensely exalted is His station above the glorification of all beings and sanctified from the praise of the entire creation. Through His advent the tabernacle of stability and order was raised throughout the world and the ensign of knowledge hoisted among the nations. May blessings rest also upon His kindred and His companions through whom the standard of the unity of God and of His singleness was uplifted and the banners of celestial triumph were unfurled. Through them the religion of God was firmly established among His creatures and His Name magnified amidst His servants."
- Tablets of Baha'u'llah revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 162
Even though the Baha'i Faith is an independent religion and is not a sect of Islam, we find in the writings of Shoghi Effendi (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith 1921-1957), much emphasis on the need for Baha'is to help correct the many mistaken views about Islam, held by the majority of people in the West:
'There is so [much] misunderstanding about Islam in the West in general that you have to dispel. Your task is rather difficult and requires a good deal of erudition. Your chief task is to acquaint the friends with the pure teaching of the Prophet [Muhammad] as recorded in the Qur'án, and then to point out how these teachings have, throughout succeeding ages, influenced[,] nay[,] guided the course of human development. In other words you have to show the position and significance of Islam in the history of civilization.'
- Shoghi Effendi, (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith). Lights of Guidance, New Delhi: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 2nd rev. and enlarged edition, 1988, #1664.
'The mission of the American Bahá'ís is, no doubt to eventually establish the truth of Islam in the West.' - Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, #1665.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the importance of the study of Islam to Bahá'ís, the Guardian, Shoghi Effendi, said that for 'a proper and sound understanding of the Cause' its study was 'absolutely indispensable.'- Lights of Guidance, #1903.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Faith standing identified with the name of Bahá'u'lláh disclaims any intention to belittle any of the Prophets gone before Him, to whittle down any of their teachings, to obscure, however slightly, the radiance of their Revelations, to oust them from the hearts of their followers, to abrogate the fundamentals of their doctrines, to discard any of their revealed Books, or to suppress the legitimate aspirations of their adherents. Repudiating the claim of any religion to be the final revelation of God to man, disclaiming finality for His own Revelation, Bahá'u'lláh inculcates the basic principle of the relativity of religious truth, the continuity of Divine Revelation, the progressiveness of religious experience. His aim is to widen the basis of all revealed religions and to unravel the mysteries of their scriptures. He insists on the unqualified recognition of the unity of their purpose, restates the eternal verities they enshrine, coordinates their functions, distinguishes the essential and the authentic from the nonessential and spurious in their teachings, separates the God-given truths from the priest-prompted superstitions, and on this as a basis proclaims the possibility, and even prophecies the inevitability, of their unification, and the consummation of their highest hopes.
As to Muhammad, the Apostle of God, let none among His followers who read these pages, think for a moment that either Islám, or its Prophet, or His Book, or His appointed Successors, or any of His authentic teachings, have been, or are to be in any way, or to however slight a degree, disparaged. The lineage of the Báb, the descendant of the Imám Husayn; the divers and striking evidences, in Nabíl's Narrative, of the attitude of the Herald of our Faith towards the Founder, the Imáms, and the Book of Islám; the glowing tributes paid by Bahá'u'lláh in the Kitáb-i-Íqán to Muhammad and His lawful Successors, and particularly to the "peerless and incomparable" Imám Husayn; the arguments adduced, forcibly, fearlessly, and publicly by `Abdu'l-Bahá, in churches and synagogues, to demonstrate the validity of the Message of the Arabian Prophet; and last but not least the written testimonial of the Queen of Rumania, who, born in the Anglican faith and notwithstanding the close alliance of her government with the Greek Orthodox Church, the state religion of her adopted country, has, largely as a result of the perusal of these public discourses of `Abdu'l-Bahá, been prompted to proclaim her recognition of the prophetic function of Muhammad-- all proclaim, in no uncertain terms, the true attitude of the Bahá'í Faith towards its parent religion.
____________________________
Write again: this is just a startt to answering your questions.-Ron Price, Tasmania
Would Muslims go to heaven, if they refuse the prophethood of Bahaullah?
Last edited by north_malaysian; 05-02-2006 at 05:02 AM.
yeah... it makes me wonder...
i was thinkin can a non-muslims believes in more than one religion...
i know that as a muslim...we believes only in one religion...coz we believe there is only one god.
Salam
I read almost all their books, and this the flaws I saw:
1) The day of judgement is interpeted as being Bahallah's appearance (or any Major Messenger's appearance) (they believe Quran to be 100% authentic and not corrupted), anyone who reads the Quran will realize this flaw, if they can interpet some verses that way, there other verses showing how flawed their interpetation is
2) The 19 months calander contradicts the 12 months calander in the Quran which the Quran says has been from day 1 of creation and is the number of months with God
3) Bahallah in one of his revelation books quoutes Du'a nudba, and uses it as a basis of revealing knowledge, however in du'a Nudba, Imam Mahdi (as) is explicitly said to be alive, and also the phrase to Ali (as) (Which is mutuwatar in both sunni and shia sources) "You are to me as HArun was to Musa, except there is no Prophet after me" is found
4) Bahallah contradicted the Prophecy of the Bab, a new 'Prophet' has done the same with the Bahallah Prophecy , here is the site to that new religion Mission Of Maitreya, "Eternal DIvine Path"
5) They didn't perform any miracles
6) The interpetation of Bahallah of "khatamal nabiyeen" is that it all Prophets (as) were one entity, thus all were first and last, this interpetation alone seems like a desperate way to get out of the meaning of the verse, however Bahais all give their own different interptation of it now, which shows they don't have much confidence in their Prophet's interpetation
7) Their two Prophets quoted alot of hadiths that don't exist, they qouted books that don't exist, etc, they could only trick people who don't have acadamic knowledge about hadith books and people who don't bother to check the references
8) They focussed alot of irfan, but their irfan knowledge is nothing compared to Khomeini (ra), Tabatabei (ra), Abdul Qadir Al-Jilani (ra), Ibn Arabi (ra), they took some irfan teachings and made it as if they were revealing things never revealed before
9) Quran has much more knowledge than all their books combined
10) The gospel was accepted to be 'authentic', Isa (as) was believed to be dead by them, all this can be refuted by Quran
11) The name "Baha" "Baha of Allah" is not a new concept, it is found in a book written before Bahallah was alive, mefatihal jinan, from a du'a attributed to Imam Baqir (as) the Phrase found in the du'a is the following "O God I ask you by your baha and every baha that is bahee, o God I ask you for all you baha",and "and (you (plural) [ie. Ahlulbayt] are) His baha" is found in ziyaratal jamia al-kabeer, which was reported from Imam Ali Naqi (as) (the 10th successor (as) of the Prophet (as) according to shias (and bahais)) , while they made this as if it was their unique concepted revealed to them
I found some other flaws, but you can read their books to see those
and you don't accept Maitreya, Maitreya says the no new manifestation will come for 1000 years was refering to after him, what do you make of that?Jews((most) never acccepted Christ
Christians(most) never accepted Muhammed
Muslims(most) never accepted Baha'u''llah.
Last edited by Link; 05-02-2006 at 04:08 PM.
who is matireya?
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