Edit on request of Grace seeker himself: This thread covers significantly more issue than just music which in has been sufficiently addressed over the last several month; new posters are requested to join the thread in progress on the last page, rather then just repeating what has already been stated numerous times among the many pages of this thread.
Having read the Quran and other books about Islam, and having been on these boards a short period of time there are many things I have learned about Islam. Some I agree with, some I don't. Much I respect. A few things I am still leary of.
And then there are those things that I still don't fully understand, or at least don't understand the reasoning behind them. (Perhaps for some there is none; maybe it is just what is commanded.)
First, among the things I am curious about, is the role of music, or maybe I should say the absence of a role for music. Music plays an important part in the life and worship of both Christianity and Judaism. If Islam is the same message that would have been presented by all of the prophets, and music had such an important place previously in the practice of worship, why didn't those prophets condemn it? And since they didn't, why is it not allowed now? And yet, the call to worship itself sounds like a type of chant, isn't this a form of music?
Is it just in worship that music is not allowed? On the forums I hear people talk about music as if it is itself an evil thing? Yet I know that many Muslims enjoy music, that folk music is central to the lives of many people scattered around the world in nearly every country, and these include Muslims. The whirling dervishes of Turkey are supposedly a type of worship and are most certainly accompanied to music. Some people grow rich by marketing special types of music specifically to Muslims. So, many of these things just don't fit together for me.
What is halal and what is haram in regards to music? What makes one halal and the other haram?
Last edited by Abdul Fattah; 07-27-2007 at 12:22 AM.
So it is more than music, it is "idle talks" that here are haraam. What other things would that include: joking, movies, dime novels? I would think certainly gossip? I consider a lot of conversation just so much idle talk as people talk about the weather, sports, and probably even much of what we do here on internet forums.
Also, is the reference to music and singing actually in the text, or is that someone else's interpretation of what is being referred to by idle talk? And if it isn't actually in the text, on what basis does one consider music idle talk?
Music isn't necessarily even voiced, let alone talk. Indeed, singing differs from talk by virtue of the use of rythmn and pitch in a way that is not common to ordinary conversation. And while I suppose that one could term pop songs "idle" in nature, much of music is more serious than that or is intended as serious commentary and reflection on things such as life, God, the world in which we live -- hardly idle at all. So, unless the terms "(i.e. music, singing)" are actually part of the text, I don't see how this verse applies. Music may still be haraam based on other verses, but I would hardly think it could be even inferred from this verse.
I want to point out one thing
1:The one who consume drug like heroin/hashish is call a drug addict but the singer (most singers do) who do that is a star and is given flowers while the other go to jail
2;the one who sell his/her body is called a prostitute and is arrested by the police and may go to jail
the other one who do it in public on TV is called ACTOR/ACTRESS
Think about it ,if it was islaam the law would have applied to both
"A Puritan is someone who is desperately afraid that, somewhere, someone might be having a good time." --Henry Louis Mencken
seems to be very appropriate here.
If musicians and actors are automatically evil, let's ban them all. Let's ban TV, movies, radio, record companies and instruments. Let's ban storytelling, because we know that making up stories is bad. In fact, let's try and do our best to eliminate fun altogether.
1:The one who consume drug like heroin/hashish is call a drug addict but the singer (most singers do) who do that is a star and is given flowers while the other go to jail
2;the one who sell his/her body is called a prostitute and is arrested by the police and may go to jail
the other one who do it in public on TV is called ACTOR/ACTRESS
Think about it ,if it was islaam the law would have applied to both
Huh? Your point is completely lost on me. Maybe it is just me being dense. Not sure?
Anyone else able to make sense of Zaki's point here?
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,
This quote:
"A Puritan is someone who is desperately afraid that, somewhere, someone might be having a good time." --Henry Louis Mencken
seems to be very appropriate here.
If musicians and actors are automatically evil, let's ban them all. Let's ban TV, movies, radio, record companies and instruments. Let's ban storytelling, because we know that making up stories is bad. In fact, let's try and do our best to eliminate fun altogether.
Peace
If my purpose in this thread was to critique Islam as it applies in a secular world, then you would have a point. But that isn't my purpose. I am trying to understand where Islam comes from with respect (i.e. with regard and care, not outright rejection) to its views on music.
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 02-15-2007 at 05:40 PM.
"A Puritan is someone who is desperately afraid that, somewhere, someone might be having a good time." --Henry Louis Mencken
seems to be very appropriate here.
If musicians and actors are automatically evil, let's ban them all. Let's ban TV, movies, radio, record companies and instruments. Let's ban storytelling, because we know that making up stories is bad. In fact, let's try and do our best to eliminate fun altogether.
Peace
my answers are precise and specific ,yours are general
Anyone else able to make sense of Zaki's point here?
As I understand it, he's saying that because some actors do sex scenes, that makes all actors prostitutes. Similarly, because some musicians take drugs, that makes all musicians drug addicts. I do not think that these are necessarily Islamic views; I do think they are incorrect, however.
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
If my purpose in this thread was to critique Islam as it applies in a secular world, then you would have a point. But that isn't my purpose. I am trying to understand where Islam comes from with respect (i.e. with regard and care, not outright rejection) to its views on music.
In that case I apologise, but my post was intended to address the points made in Zaki's post, rather than being a comment on Islam as a whole. Sorry for not making that clear.
If you look around at some of the older threads on music you might see my posts on the subject there. I've tried to understand the Islamic view too, but without much success.
As I understand it, he's saying that because some actors do sex scenes, that makes all actors prostitutes. Similarly, because some musicians take drugs, that makes all musicians drug addicts. I do not think that these are necessarily Islamic views; I do think they are incorrect, however.
In that case I apologise, but my post was intended to address the points made in Zaki's post, rather than being a comment on Islam as a whole. Sorry for not making that clear.
If you look around at some of the older threads on music you might see my posts on the subject there. I've tried to understand the Islamic view too, but without much success.
Peace
music ,movies etc are more than responsible for crime increasing,disobedience to parents ,theft .generally speaking increasings of sins and problem of laws n order in mall countries . ask the elders
So it is more than music, it is "idle talks" that here are haraam. What other things would that include: joking,
Joking is permissible provided that it doesn't involve anything haram, including telling a lie and tricking people in a way that might cause them a temporary fright.
movies,
I explained that earlier:
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
The problem with movies is much greater than the just the music! Lets not forget the half-nakedness (or more like 90% nakedness), the time-wasting, the heart-harding, the illicit themes, the twisting of emotions, the presentation of morals and values contrary to those of Islam...
The list goes on. :rolleyes:
dime novels?
What is a dime novel? Novel in general that do not contain haram content would be considered a waste of time, and wasting time is highly discouraged in Islam. Though I can't say if they are haram or not, I don't know. Also keep in mind that some story have good morals and the like and can be beneficial...
I would think certainly gossip?
Gossip is forbidden very explicitly in other place, specifically by the verse that likens back biting to eating the flesh of the person being talked about. It is considered a major sin in Islam. Much worse than music.
I consider a lot of conversation just so much idle talk as people talk about the weather, sports, and probably even much of what we do here on internet forums.
True, but it doesn't mean people can't just sit back and relax every now and then!
Referring back to the verse, not it wasn't talking only about idle talk, but about idle talk that misleads mankind:
“And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing) to mislead (men) from the path of Allaah…” [Luqmaan 31:6]
So I hardly think discussing the weather would be considered as such.
Referring back to the verse, not it wasn't talking only about idle talk, but about idle talk that misleads mankind:
“And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing) to mislead (men) from the path of Allaah…” [Luqmaan 31:6]
Malaikah,
Thank-you for being patient with me on this.
As I understand what you are saying here, what makes something haraam here then is not just that it is idle talk, but that the idle talk misleads mankind. Does intent matter?
Perhaps someone is engaging in a joke that they just mean to be funny, but other people find the joke offensive because it uses racial or ethnic slurs. Would such a joke be haraam?
And surely as far as doing something that misleads others, wouldn't any activity that misleads people, not just idle talk, be haraam? I would think it is haraam simply to mislead people.
Now, look at the quote provided, can you tell me who inserted the parenthetical comment? "I.e" is a latin phrase which basically means "such as". They are listed as examples, but not exhaustive examples. And in this case, I would like to know if the examples were selected by Muhammad, a companion, or were added later? I think this may be important with respect to this verse, but will wait to till I find out which it was before going any further, as your answer may also make it irrelevant.
As I understand what you are saying here, what makes something haraam here then is not just that it is idle talk, but that the idle talk misleads mankind. Does intent matter?
Perhaps someone is engaging in a joke that they just mean to be funny, but other people find the joke offensive because it uses racial or ethnic slurs. Would such a joke be haraam?
And surely as far as doing something that misleads others, wouldn't any activity that misleads people, not just idle talk, be haraam? I would think it is haraam simply to mislead people.
Now, look at the quote provided, can you tell me who inserted the parenthetical comment? "I.e" is a latin phrase which basically means "such as". They are listed as examples, but not exhaustive examples. And in this case, I would like to know if the examples were selected by Muhammad, a companion, or were added later? I think this may be important with respect to this verse, but will wait to till I find out which it was before going any further, as your answer may also make it irrelevant.
Another interesting tendency in Islam is that all the roads and actions that could easily lead towards bad things are also considered as bad, even if the road itself has no inherited evilness and perhaps even has some good in it.
This means that sometimes a rule can seem harsh, but if you see it in its context toghether with other rules you often find that such harsh rules often create consistency in actions and make it easier to follow other rules by avoiding temptation itself rather then only resisting it.
Now, look at the quote provided, can you tell me who inserted the parenthetical comment? "I.e" is a latin phrase which basically means "such as". They are listed as examples, but not exhaustive examples. And in this case, I would like to know if the examples were selected by Muhammad, a companion, or were added later? I think this may be important with respect to this verse, but will wait to till I find out which it was before going any further, as your answer may also make it irrelevant.
I am curious about this too. I should point out, however, that 'i.e.' is not used to give examples - it stands for id est, meaning 'that is', and is used for clarification. Examples should be preceeded by 'e.g.' (exempli gratis).
So, this means that 'music, singing' is not a list of examples, but apparently a clarification of the meaning of 'idle talks'. Now, it should be clear that in English the meaning of 'idle talks' has nothing to do with music or singing, so presumably there is some connection in the original Arabic. Can anyone confirm this?
Another interesting tendency in Islam is that all the roads and actions that could easily lead towards bad things are also considered as bad, even if the road itself has no inherited evilness and perhaps even has some good in it.
This means that sometimes a rule can seem harsh, but if you see it in its context toghether with other rules you often find that such harsh rules often create consistency in actions and make it easier to follow other rules by avoiding temptation itself rather then only resisting it.
Why have alcohol(wine ,rhum,beer,etc) been declared haraam
The quran answers the question ,it says that the disadvantges are more than the advantages . How much money does a state spent due to thsi problem
Alcohol provoke divorce,crimes ,making child orphans ,up to 70 % patient in hospital are due to alcohol tec,, any state may spent more than 50 % of his budget due to this problem
who pay the tax ,vat ,income tax custom and duty tax ,etc
Why have alcohol(wine ,rhum,beer,etc) been declared haraam
The quran answers the question ,it says that the disadvantges are more than the advantages . How much money does a state spent due to thsi problem
Alcohol provoke divorce,crimes ,making child orphans ,up to 70 % patient in hospital are due to alcohol tec,, any state may spent more than 50 % of his budget due to this problem
who pay the tax ,vat ,income tax custom and duty tax ,etc
answer U and ME
Selam aleykum
I don't see how your reply relates to my post at all. I was saying something entirely different.
Also, I doubt 70% is an accurate representation of alcohol-related-hospitalisations.
Also the estimation of statespending is hugely inaccurate. I know no single state in teh world that spends anything remotely near 50% of their budget on healt-care.
And finally you're wrong about the tax to. Taxes on alcohol are individual taxes. These taxes are raised on the producer/distributor who in turn ads this to the price of his product. So those taxes are not payed by you and me, but instead they are paid by the end-consumer: people that drink alcohol.
Selam aleykum
I don't see how your reply relates to my post at all. I was saying something entirely different.
Also, I doubt 70% is an accurate representation of alcohol-related-hospitalisations.
Also the estimation of statespending is hugely inaccurate. I know no single state in teh world that spends anything remotely near 50% of their budget on healt-care.
And finally you're wrong about the tax to. Taxes on alcohol are individual taxes. These taxes are raised on the producer/distributor who in turn ads this to the price of his product. So those taxes are not payed by you and me, but instead they are paid by the end-consumer: people that drink alcohol.
the problem of alcohol is not only on health care ,it is a problem that concern all departments of any government ,prison ,police ,weapons used ,forensic experts,etc
I just quote one problem which occur one month ago ,two children nine years old wre found saoul they have taken off their clothes and were laughing a lot in a government school .they have drunk wine
Having read the Quran and other books about Islam, and having been on these boards a short period of time there are many things I have learned about Islam. Some I agree with, some I don't. Much I respect. A few things I am still leary of.
And then there are those things that I still don't fully understand, or at least don't understand the reasoning behind them. (Perhaps for some there is none; maybe it is just what is commanded.)
First, among the things I am curious about, is the role of music, or maybe I should say the absence of a role for music. Music plays an important part in the life and worship of both Christianity and Judaism. If Islam is the same message that would have been presented by all of the prophets, and music had such an important place previously in the practice of worship, why didn't those prophets condemn it? And since they didn't, why is it not allowed now? And yet, the call to worship itself sounds like a type of chant, isn't this a form of music?
Is it just in worship that music is not allowed? On the forums I hear people talk about music as if it is itself an evil thing? Yet I know that many Muslims enjoy music, that folk music is central to the lives of many people scattered around the world in nearly every country, and these include Muslims. The whirling dervishes of Turkey are supposedly a type of worship and are most certainly accompanied to music. Some people grow rich by marketing special types of music specifically to Muslims. So, many of these things just don't fit together for me.
What is halal and what is haram in regards to music? What makes one halal and the other haram?
a uestion
what did jesus say about musicand what did christianity say about music
If u want to get the to the right path ,research is important
in islaam we do not say things if we do not have refernces because on the day of judgement people will be questioned for that
some will say i heard that but the right will say i was seeking for knowledge ,i open books ,i ask for questions though teh answers were sometimes veryvery harsh
have a look at any religion ,it comes orthodox ,what happens after ,in 1000 years it becomes 70 sects
a uestion
what did jesus say about musicand what did christianity say about music
The clear teaching of the New Testament with regard to music can be found in this passage:
Ephesians 5:18-20
Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus actually does not mention anything about music one way or another, he does narrate a story of what the kingdom of God is like in which he describes the celebration for a lost son who returns home and parallels that with the joy in heaven when people who are lost find their way back to God. In that story (the Prodigal Son, Luke 15) Jesus describes the celebration as one which included music in a very positive light.
Indeed throughout the Bible (both the Tanakh and the New Testament) singing songs is enjoined upon God's people as a way for them to give praise to God:
Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. (James 5:13)
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 02-16-2007 at 07:52 PM.
If u want to get the to the right path ,research is important
in islaam we do not say things if we do not have refernces because on the day of judgement people will be questioned for that
some will say i heard that but the right will say i was seeking for knowledge ,i open books ,i ask for questions though teh answers were sometimes veryvery harsh
have a look at any religion ,it comes orthodox ,what happens after ,in 1000 years it becomes 70 sects
I'm sorry; I don't see how your comments here are in any way relevant to my post.
The clear teaching of the New Testament with regard to music can be found in this passage:
Jesus actually does not mention anything about music one way or another, he does narrate a story of what the kingdom of God is like in which he describes the celebration for a lost son who returns home and parallels that with the joy in heaven when people who are lost find their way back to God. In that story (the Prodigal Son, Luke 15) Jesus describes the celebration as one which included music in a very positive light.
Indeed throughout the Bible (both the Tanakh and the New Testament) singing songs is enjoined upon God's people as a way for them to give praise to God:
i want to ask a question a bit aside
where does the prophecy end
are we bound to follow new prohphet e.g i am in the time of prophet jesus peace be upon him should i follow him or not
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Novel in general that do not contain haram content would be considered a waste of time, and wasting time is highly discouraged in Islam. Though I can't say if they are haram or not, I don't know. Also keep in mind that some story have good morals and the like and can be beneficial...
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