Edit on request of Grace seeker himself: This thread covers significantly more issue than just music which in has been sufficiently addressed over the last several month; new posters are requested to join the thread in progress on the last page, rather then just repeating what has already been stated numerous times among the many pages of this thread.
Having read the Quran and other books about Islam, and having been on these boards a short period of time there are many things I have learned about Islam. Some I agree with, some I don't. Much I respect. A few things I am still leary of.
And then there are those things that I still don't fully understand, or at least don't understand the reasoning behind them. (Perhaps for some there is none; maybe it is just what is commanded.)
First, among the things I am curious about, is the role of music, or maybe I should say the absence of a role for music. Music plays an important part in the life and worship of both Christianity and Judaism. If Islam is the same message that would have been presented by all of the prophets, and music had such an important place previously in the practice of worship, why didn't those prophets condemn it? And since they didn't, why is it not allowed now? And yet, the call to worship itself sounds like a type of chant, isn't this a form of music?
Is it just in worship that music is not allowed? On the forums I hear people talk about music as if it is itself an evil thing? Yet I know that many Muslims enjoy music, that folk music is central to the lives of many people scattered around the world in nearly every country, and these include Muslims. The whirling dervishes of Turkey are supposedly a type of worship and are most certainly accompanied to music. Some people grow rich by marketing special types of music specifically to Muslims. So, many of these things just don't fit together for me.
What is halal and what is haram in regards to music? What makes one halal and the other haram?
Last edited by Abdul Fattah; 07-27-2007 at 12:22 AM.
"I am curious as to the reasons for what appears to be sectarian violence... or is there another source behind it that doesn't have anything to do with being Shia or Sunni?"
This may not answer the question...but its what I think......
Some have tried to link everything happening today with history---and while I do agree that historical aspects are relevant to some degree, I think it is also important to understand present-day geo-politics---as what effects people today are todays' problems. The basis of most conflicts is about resources or political power...and in some instances about genuine reform. (IMO, the origins of the shia-sunni split was political)
Social reform is an important aspect of Islam and Islamic history---after all, Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) brought about radical social reform (as well as political, religious and economical...). This aspect of the spirit of reform within Islam is often mistaken for politics by westerners.
However, in the more globalized world we live in today, people face uncertainty abut the future as well as an identity crises. This leads to tensions. In the west these tensions result in xenophobic and nationalistic parties (Secular and Christian) forming to create an "us vs them" identity. Something similar happens within countries with Muslim majority populations as well in that more "identity-politics" comes to the fore. Some people are the "in" group and others are defined as "them"....... basically, human reactions and aspirations are not all that different. These socio-political tensions have to be worked out.
Islam has an advantage here over the west. In Islam we have the concept of the "Ummah" or brotherhood. Unlike the French idea of "fraternity"---the Islamic idea of brotherhood is universal. It is an idea that creates a cohesion (unity) among diversity---while at the same time, allowing an atmosphere of tolerance for diversity. If we Muslims can struggle/strive (Jihad) towards this ideal, we could perhaps create societies based on equality, fraternity, liberty and justice.....
Bible does really still talks about ONE TRUE GOD, and if someone really finds peace being Christian that's good.
I dont like to upset you, I was carried by My emotion. I am lucky for I am being guided, I wish you too Mr Amigo & Pastor GS
However, when we are going to determine the righteousness or wrongness of the thing, we dont do it according to how we feel emotionally. We have to look objectively, is this the truth, what is the book that hasnt really been change and there is proof for that. I would like to confirm that we didnt create the thing that bible has been changed, its in our Holy Quran said that bible has been changed but it doesnt mean that everything in it is not correct, we respect it and we still share you many verses and we are learning from it, that's why Allah declare you to be closer to us, Men can marry Christian women, why we are able to eat their slaughtered (JEWS) etc
BIBLE Clearly says one thing: GOD IS ONE
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
Mark 12:29
Talking about the Greatest sin: The most important one: Hear o Israel, our Lord our God is ONE
I hope you both will read the Holy Quran and have an open minded and try to accept when it is the truth.
Salam
The HIGHEST accomplishment I can achieve in this worldly life is to be a TRUE MUSLIM. (me)
Bible does really still talks about ONE TRUE GOD, and if someone really finds peace being Christian that's good.
Indeed it does.
I'm glad you see that. You may not understand it as we do, and I certainly don't think that we are going to be able to explain it in a way that satisfies you, but even Christians (yes, us trinitarian Christians who worship God in Jesus Christ and sing songs of praise to the Holy Spirit) think that God is one as well. But this is not the thread to go into that. I'm just glad that you see that the Bible does really still talk about there being only one God, Jesus emphasized it, and we both acknowledge and agree with that.
I'm glad you see that. You may not understand it as we do, and I certainly don't think that we are going to be able to explain it in a way that satisfies you, but even Christians (yes, us trinitarian Christians who worship God in Jesus Christ and sing songs of praise to the Holy Spirit) think that God is one as well. But this is not the thread to go into that. I'm just glad that you see that the Bible does really still talk about there being only one God, Jesus emphasized it, and we both acknowledge and agree with that.
Alhamdollelah Pastor
Inshallah we will all be saved and see our Creator, all the prophets, angels in Heaven/Jannah. The Greatest Dream
The HIGHEST accomplishment I can achieve in this worldly life is to be a TRUE MUSLIM. (me)
I am curious as to the reasons for what appears to be sectarian violence within Islam.
It doesn't take long to figure this out. Just ask yourself what are the reasons for violence between different religious and non-religious groups.
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
How long has it been this way? And is it really sectarian, or is there another source behind it that doesn't have anything to do with being Shia or Sunni?
the shias first appeared, as a different group from the main group, during the time of Ali (may Allah be pleased with him). So this was not too long after the death of the Prophet (sal-allahu alayhi wa salaam) - we are talking about roughly 28-30 years. A group of those shias elevated Ali and gave him attributes of God; as a result, he burned them. The differences between the shia and sunni were never political from the very start even though it seems the beginning difference were political in nature; the differences were and are theological and it got worse as shias grew in number and evolved over the centuries. The difference between the companions, however, were political.
عن تميم بن أوس الداري أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم: قال الدين النصيحة ثلاثا قلنا لمن يا رسول الله قال لله ولكتابه ولرسوله ولأئمة المسلمين وعامتهم - رواه مسلم
Oh I dont blv that, as human we have free will, If Allah sees you have a good heart and you are humble and from the bottom of your heart you would like to submit to one TRUE GOD, yes definitely you have 99% chance to be guided, OUR ONE TRUE GOD is the Most Merciful and the Most Just
He wont let any Believers down
as long as we humble ourselves
If after all you are not guided, then maybe its time to re evaluate the intention & so on
Well, personally, I too believe that we are all responsible for our own faith decisions, because though I do believe that God leads us to himself by wooing us and pricking our conscience to make us aware of his presence, but he does not force himself on us. Rather he leaves us with the decision as to how we will personally and individually respond to him. But in contrast to that view, this is what I see taught in the Qur'an:
If Allah so willed, He could make you all one Ummah: but He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but you shall certainly be called to account for all your actions. (16:93)
Mankind was one single ummah. And Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace guided the Believers to the Truth, concerning what wherein they differed. For Allah guides whom He will to a path that is straight. (2:213)
As best I understand this, we are still to be held accountable, even though Allah has willed us to not be response-abled, for it all remains in his will who he is pleased to leave staying and who he is pleased to guide.
So, where do you as a Muslim do you find the idea that as a human I have free will within these texts of Islam? (Perhaps there are others that contradict these, and are considered more on point, I don't know. But these are the ones that I am frequently made aware of.)
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 06-23-2011 at 02:32 PM.
So, where do you as a Muslim do you find the idea that as a human I have free will within these texts of Islam? (Perhaps there are others that contradict these, and are considered more on point, I don't know. But these are the ones that I am frequently made aware of.)
The verses you mentioned do not say "Allah force people wrong themselves, or Allah intentionally make people go astray".
People go astray on their own will.
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
As best I understand this, we are still to be held accountable, even though Allah has willed us to not be response-abled,
Pl. give reference from Quran & Hadith about the following issues.
1. I want to know about rules for Hiba / gift. There is a hadith where Prophet pbuh allowed a man to give his one third property to charity . Does it mean a father can give some wealth to any of his child as gift when he is alive ?
A lawyer told me one can give his /her whole wealth to anybody as gift . But is it correct to deprive other family members by giving a specific person a portion of wealth as gift ?
2. How far one can go to know about other's source of income ? A couple always try to find out how their friends and neighbour earn & where they spend time when go out at night . They ask people how their friends are spending so much ? Their excuse is they suspect friends are wrong doers and if they are able to know about their sins , they can correct them . They are not doing it for the sake of backbiting but with good intention.
3 . The above mentioned couple heard that their neighbour's wife go to dance party and dance with other man . They are telling others that she has become a call girl . When asked to produce 4 witnesses with whom she slept , they said it's not possible to bring 4 persons as this kind of act are done in closed door . So , the verse must not be taken literally . If many persons see a woman dances with non Muhram men in a hotel , it's a clear proof she is a call girl.
Last edited by Muslim Woman; 06-07-2012 at 08:35 AM.
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
I have a question about riba and this hadith and I am hoping someone can clear this up.
Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 3327 Narrated byAbdullah ibn Mas'ud The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) cursed the one who accepted usury, the one who paid it, the witness to it, and the one who recorded it.
If you have loans with interest, does the curse still apply for paying them off in full, including the interest attached to them, and getting rid of the debt completely?
“The best of you are those who are best in paying off their debts.” (Tahawi, Sahih) 45.
Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 3327 Narrated byAbdullah ibn Mas'ud The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) cursed the one who accepted usury, the one who paid it, the witness to it, and the one who recorded it.
Assalamu'alaikum.
From few references from ulama in my place about this hadith. "the one who paid it" is the paymaster who work for the person who give loan with interest. Same like "the one who recorded" who work for this 'Boss' too.
From few references from ulama in my place about this hadith. "the one who paid it" is the paymaster who work for the person who give loan with interest. Same like "the one who recorded" who work for this 'Boss' too.
Whether you're paying interest or receiving it, it is haraam. Accepting to repay loans with interest is encouraging usury activities.
Muslims are not allowed to borrow money from the commercial banks because they charge interest. I had heard a scholar say that Muslims should either take loans from Islamic banks or relatives without any condition of interest or try seeking support from affluent Muslims.
If Allah helps you, none can overcome you; and if He forsakes you, who is there after Him that can help you? And in Allah (Alone) let believers put their trust.
Surah Ale Imran : 160
It was narrated that Anas ibn Maalik (may Allaah be pleased with him) said:
The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allaah be upon him) climbed up Uhud, accompanied by Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and ‘Uthmaan, and the mountain shook with them. He struck it with his foot and said: “Stand firm, O Uhud, for there is no one on you but a Prophet or a Siddeeq or two martyrs.”
Narrated by al-Bukhaari (3483)
Allah (Subhaanahu Wa Taala) does not inspire seeking forgiveness in a slave whom he wishes to punish.
I have a question about riba and this hadith and I am hoping someone can clear this up.
Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 3327 Narrated byAbdullah ibn Mas'ud The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) cursed the one who accepted usury, the one who paid it, the witness to it, and the one who recorded it.
If you have loans with interest, does the curse still apply for paying them off in full, including the interest attached to them, and getting rid of the debt completely?
“The best of you are those who are best in paying off their debts.” (Tahawi, Sahih) 45.
See this:
If you cannot get rid of this loan, then you have to pay it off. If you can get out of paying the interest without any negative consequences, then you must do that, because it is not permissible for you to pay interest (riba), for the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed the one who consumes riba, the one who pays it, the one who records it and the two who witness it. He said they are all the same. (Muslim, 1598).
If you cannot avoid paying this interest, then pay it because you are forced to do so, whilst hating it in your heart. Allaah does not burden anyone beyond what he is able to bear. It is sufficient for you to repent and regret what you did, in sha Allah.
As far as the loans you borrowed, you are obligated to return the initial money borrowed only. If you are forced to pay riba, and that is the added amount with no way out, then we hope that you do your best in repenting to Allah to pardon you. We also hope that you remain consistent in your business and give sadaqa with what you are able to, in order to purify yourself and your wealth
Moreover, according to Islam you are not obliged to pay back any more than the capital; as for the haraam interest, you are not obliged to pay it and it is not permissible for the lender to take it from you, because Allaah says: “but if you repent, you shall have your capital sums. Deal not unjustly (by asking more than your capital sums), and you shall not be dealt with unjustly (by receiving less than your capital sums)”.
But if you fear harm and problems if you do not pay the interest, then pay it, and repent to Allaah and feel dislike towards this great evil.
Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").
This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)
Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)
I guess the thread opener is no more online but I would like to give my feedback about his questions.
I'm still here. And as I had posted to the thread opener, I believe my original question has been answered and I have requested people to join the thred in progress, rather than continuing to rework old ground over and over again. Nevertheless, thank you for your response.
I you read the thread (and I don't blame anyone for not reading a 175-page thread), you'll find that most here disagree with your view that listening to pop music on the radio is OK. But you are not alone in viewing it to be fine. I believe there were well-reasoned arguments presented as to why it would be fine as well. They just were not in the majority on this forum.
Also, though I respect your view that listening to music might keep you from concentrating on Allah, I would submit that quite the opposite may be true for other people and that music can actually enhance their experience of worship and the offering of worship they present to God.
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 12-03-2012 at 01:07 PM.
I'm glad you see that. You may not understand it as we do, and I certainly don't think that we are going to be able to explain it in a way that satisfies you, but even Christians (yes, us trinitarian Christians who worship God in Jesus Christ and sing songs of praise to the Holy Spirit) think that God is one as well. But this is not the thread to go into that. I'm just glad that you see that the Bible does really still talk about there being only one God, Jesus emphasized it, and we both acknowledge and agree with that.
I have been told this my whole life.
It rings hollow with me. I prayed many times for understanding of this. I was uneasy about it but I had an open heart when asking god.
I have always got the same answer. There is one true God. It is a sin to worship an image of god.
Go back to the old testiment. The story of the golden calf gave the clear message that we are to have NO image of god. No symbol to worship.
Ask yourself why would god reverse himself later and send a physical representation of himself. The whole purpose of the ban on images IMO was that you need to rely on faith. If you have an image, idol, physical representation then you aren't going on pure faith.
Also the change from old to new testiment from a vengeful god to one who is supposed to have later sent himself to earth to sacrifice himself to save men from their sins???
What sense does this makes. We are taught that god is perfect, god doesn't make mistakes. There is no way to interpret that change as anything other than an admission that the old way wasn't right any more IMO.
Why does a perfect god need to reverse course?? Was his judgement of people before wrong? It just doesn't wash.
Also if god wanted to absolve people of their sins he could do so just by commandment. Scripture teaches us that if god wills something than it is so. Just like that. There is no need for this symbolic gesture IMO. Again it doesn't make sense.
Jesus himself said worship god. Later on we are told to worship Jesus. He said pray to god, now we are supposed to pray to Jesus. Jesus said to give your wealth to the poor and follow him. He threw the money changers out of the church.
The origin of Christianity (The Catholic church) got rich by charging the poor to talk to the priests because they were the only ones who could talk to god...... They have built giant cathedrals with Gold leaf and stained glass in areas where the people starve to death.
We hear these words of Jesus and are told to worship him, yet the vast majority of Christians here support money hoarding theives whos policies are nothing more than social darwinism. Keep all the wealth for the rich and if you can't support yourself then starve. There is nothing here that Jesus wouldn't cringe at.
In fact if Jesus were to be here in America today he would be called a socialist pig who wants to destroy America.
I am sorry for the rant but I have lived with this reality my whole life. While I know that the actions of men do not invalidate a religion, this religion appears to have been corrupt from day one. In my heart I feel that the good teachings of Jesus were highjacked by satan and turned into a religion that attempts to lead people astray from god. There are a lot of well meaning people who are christians and I think many of them will be forgiven by god and will enter heaven. Most of them so systematically mislead that there is little chance they could ever see the truth.
We here have been further mislead by anti muslim propaganda in an attempt to replace the spector of the Soviet threat with another threat that could be used to keep the intelligence agencies in power and the military money flowing, as well as give them an excuse to invade any country they wanted to for their own gain.
My uncle was a homicide detective and the main thing he taught me was to look at who stands to profit most from a crime, there you will almost always find the culprit. Who had the most to gain from the supposed terrorist attacks on the west? It sure wasn't terrorist groups, who had their abililty to operate severaly damaged (exactly why they never mest with much outside of israli targets). It was the American intelligence agencies and defense contractors.......
Again I apologize for the unorganized, off topic rant
Ripamaru it sounds like you've thought about it for a long time and have come to the conclusion that something is wrong somewhere. That said, I hope you would start studying more about religion through knowledgable teachers. I firmly believe that Islam is the only religion in which the more knowledge you obtain about it the firmer your believes will be. There are no missing pieces nor misshaped jigsaw pieces in Islam. Any errors are from errors of understanding from our part.
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