Things in Islam I am curious about...

format_quote Originally Posted by Imam

9:31 They take their rabbis, priests and monks or ascetics to be their Lords* besides Allah. And they take as their Lord, the Messiah son of Mary.

So, are you claiming that the use of the term "Lord" is identifying a person as being worshipped?

When in the past I have pointed out to Muslims who question that Jesus own disciples thought of him as God and cited that Jesus was addressed as Lord in the Bible, Muslims have told that it was merely the equivalence of calling him "sir". So which is it? When the disciples refer to Jesus as Lord are they worshipping him or are they just using a title of respect?

one God and Father of all, who is above all, through all, and in all.Ephesians 4:6


If the father of all is called God (Allah) ,and the father is one of the three persons of the trinity ,then Allah is one of three in a Trinity !!!!

so Hard to comprehend?!!!

Evidently it is. You completely by-passed the key point of that verse -- namely, there is just one God. What more proof of the monotheism of Christianity could you want than the verse you yourself just quoted?



--------------------------------


Oh, and while you are proving my point, even the article you linked to which argues for the possibility of Arabic being older than Hebrew backs up my contention that a Hebrew word would not have been derived from an Arabic word, for even in saying that Arabic may be older than Hebrew, it sees them as both being derived from a common ancestor language not and not Hebrew being derived from Arabic.

Salaam/peace;


a related Q & A

Virgin Mary and Christian Trinity


Name of Counselor

Nabil Haroun

O Jesus son of Mary

did you say to mankind, "Take me and my mother to your selves as two gods, apart from Allah?" ........(chapter 5: verse 116)

The text above, to start with, says nothing regarding the Christian trinity.


It simply says that Christians, after Christ, have falsely deified both Jesus and his mother; and that Jesus will be witness over them before Allah in the hereafter.


The wording of the verses cannot be twisted any further to serve the purpose of an imaginary conflict with historical facts; a technique often practiced by some Christian missionaries and Orientalists.

Truth is always simple, crystal clear and straightforward; while fallacies are always complicated, mysterious and tortuous

...For Christians, including their clergy, it is simply a mystery they have to dogmatically accept.


Quoting a few Christian authorities (M. A. C. Cave, "Is the Trinity Doctrine Divinely Inspired"):

- "God is one, and God is three. Since there is nothing like this in creation, we cannot understand it, but only accept it." (Monsignor Eugene Clark)

- "We know that it is a very profound mystery, which we don't begin to understand." (Cardinal John O'Connor)

- "The inscrutable mystery of God the Trinity." (Pope John Paul II)

...

The deifying of Jesus and his mother has similarly crept into Christianity, gradually after their departure.


First, the status of Jesus was changed from: a human prophet, one of a long string of prophets, to be the "son of God" then to "God incarnate".

Jesus himself has never claimed to be divine or semi-divine. To the contrary, he repeatedly affirmed his human nature and role; and warned those who might unduly ascribe such false attributes to himself:

- "As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God." (John 8:40)

- "'What things?' he asked. 'About Jesus of Nazareth,' they replied. 'He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people.'" (Luke 24:19)


This conforms with the Qur'anic description, when it says what means:

*{Surely the likeness of Jesus in the providence of Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He (Allah) created him of dust, thereafter He said to him, “Be!” so he is (i.e., he was)}* (Aal`Imran 3:59)


..
Later, the status of Virgin Mary has similarly been unduly elevated, to different extents by different Christian denominations.



Some regard her to be the 'Mother of God', the 'Spouse of the Holy Spirit', 'Mary as Coredemptrix' (i.e. that Mary participated in some way in Christ's redemption of mankind), or 'Mary as Mediatrix of All Graces' (i.e. that all graces Christ obtains for humanity are dispensed by and through Mary.


Others claim that: "God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation." (Catholic.org)

Other groups have more explicitly taken her as a full deity, addressing her as:
"Woman! Thou art God. She is Love! She Provides! Pray to Her! She is Powerful! She Comforts!;"

And, call on their followers:
"How to worship Mary? Pray with Her and to Her!" (WomanThouArtGod.com)

....It is also worth mentioning that the Qur'an holds Mary in high esteem, as in the following verses (English meaning):

.... And Maryam (Mary) daughter of `Imran, who kept safe her private parts, (i.e., safeguarded) so We breathed in it of Our Spirit, and she sincerely (believed) in the Words of her Lord, and His Books; and she was one of the devout.}*


(At-Tahrim 66:11-12)

Useful Links:

Who Invented the Trinity?



Virgin Mary in Islamic Teachings



Was Mary Married?



What is the Holy Spirit?

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1139226324090

Muslim Woman, I have never met any Christian of any denomination who deified Mary, mother of Jesus ...

I don't know what kind of 'Christians' the Qu'ran is referring to - but I have never met anybody like that ...

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

And the Qur'an talks about the Trinity, but it's description of the Trinity is not a Trinity that Christians actually believe in (Surah 5:73):

Muhsin Khan: Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.
Shakir: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one Allah, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.
Sahih International: They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

Not one of these interpretions of the Qur'an properly states the Christians understanding of what is meant by Trinity when Christians refer to the term, so who is it that the Qur'an is talking about as these blasphemers and disbelievers, because it can't be Christians. Christians DO NOTsay that Allah is one of three; Christians DO NOT say that Allah is the third of three; and Christians DO NOT say that Allah is the third person of the three. That is not a correct understanding of the Trinity from a Christian point of view. Since the Qur'an can never be wrong, surely the Qur'an must then be talking about some other group of people besides Christians. Who is it?

Muhsin Khan: They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians) want to extinguish Allah's Light (with which Muhammad SAW has been sent - Islamic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kafirun (disbelievers) hate (it).

Muhsin Khan: They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allah), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) to worship none but One Ilah (God - Allah) La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory be to Him, (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)."

Muhsin Khan: O you who believe! Verily, there are many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks who devour the wealth of mankind in falsehood, and hinder (them) from the Way of Allah (i.e. Allah's Religion of Islamic Monotheism). And those who hoard up gold and silver [Al-Kanz: the money, the Zakat of which has not been paid], and spend it not in the Way of Allah, -announce unto them a painful torment.

Muhsin Khan: On the Day when that (Al-Kanz: money, gold and silver, etc., the Zakat of which has not been paid) will be heated in the Fire of Hell and with it will be branded their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs, (and it will be said unto them):-"This is the treasure which you hoarded for yourselves. Now taste of what you used to hoard."

for the Mushrikun

from here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

The dogma of the Trinity

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

so let's quote "Three Persons being truly distinct one from another": that means they the Christians have ONE GOD (NUMBER ONE), whom they call the Father who is truly distinct from the lesser gods whom they call the Son and the Holy Spirit, and then they have ANOTHER god (NUMBER TWO) whom they have called the son, who is distinct from the OTHER [G]od[s] whom they call the Father and the Holy Spirit, and YET ANOTHER god (NUMBER THREE) called the Holy Spirit whom is distinct from the OTHER [G]od[s] whom they call the Father and the son.

let's look at the definition of distinct, shall we:

source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/distinct


Main Entry:
dis·tinct Listen to the pronunciation of distinct
Pronunciation:
\di-ˈstiŋ(k)t\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English, from Latin distinctus, from past participle of distinguere
Date:
14th century

1: distinguishable to the eye or mind as discrete : separate <a distinct cultural group> <teaching as distinct from research>
2: presenting a clear unmistakable impression <a neat distinct handwriting>
3archaic : notably decorated
4 a: notable <a distinct contribution to scholarship> b: readily and unmistakably apprehended <a distinct possibility of snow> <a distinct British accent>
— dis·tinct·ly Listen to the pronunciation of distinctly \-ˈstiŋ(k)-tlē, -ˈstiŋ-klē\ adverb
— dis·tinct·ness Listen to the pronunciation of distinctness \-ˈstiŋ(k)t-nəs, -ˈstiŋk-nəs\ noun
synonyms distinct, separate, discrete mean not being each and every one the same. distinct indicates that something is distinguished by the mind or eye as being apart or different from others <two distinct versions>. separate often stresses lack of connection or a difference in identity between two things <separate rooms>. discrete strongly emphasizes individuality and lack of connection <broke the job down into discrete stages>.

the emphasis on the meaning is "separate or different"; therefore we see conclusively that 1+1+1=3; and that if someone writes [in ignorance] 1x1x1=1, it is NOT CORRECT as the units in question are "separate or different" and NOT the same.

i hope this truly helps to clarify the matter!

format_quote Originally Posted by glo

Muslim Woman, I have never met any Christian of any denomination who deified Mary, mother of Jesus ...

I don't know what kind of 'Christians' the Qu'ran is referring to - but I have never met anybody like that ...

Peace Gol,

i have met thousands, and that is just the Catholics! let me explain so that you can understand, let's look at this article in Wikipedia [for which i apologize to Purest]:

Du'a (دُعَاء) (also spelt du'ah or dwuha) is a supplication in Islam, an Arabic term which means to 'call out' or to 'summon'. Muslims use this term and call out to God, and Muslims regard this as one of the second greatest acts of worship in Islam. The Islamic prophet Muhammad is reported to have said "Dua is the very essence of worship." One of Allah's commands expressed to Muslims through the Quran is for them to call out to it:

"And your Lord says: "Call on Me; I will answer your (Prayer)!" [1

which gives a reasonable explanation of Surah 40 Al Ghafir:

60:
Muhsin Khan: And your Lord said: "Invoke Me, [i.e. believe in My Oneness (Islamic Monotheism)] (and ask Me for anything) I will respond to your (invocation). Verily! Those who scorn My worship [i.e. do not invoke Me, and do not believe in My Oneness, (Islamic Monotheism)] they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!"
Shakir: And your Lord says: Call upon Me, I will answer you; surely those who are too proud for My service shall soon enter hell abased.
Sahih International: And your Lord says, "Call upon Me; I will respond to you." Indeed, those who disdain My worship will enter Hell [rendered] contemptible.

so to "call upon someone in prayer is worship!"

now, let's look at the Prayer known as the Hail Mary:

again, from Wikipedia:

Áve María, grátia pléna, Dóminus técum. Benedícta tu in muliéribus, et benedíctus frúctus véntris túi, Iésus.[8]
Sáncta María, Máter Déi, óra pro nóbis peccatóribus, nunc et in hóra mórtis nóstrae. Ámen.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

how far in this "dua" do we have to go until we reach the "worship" or "shirk" aspect?"

let's recite together until we reach that point, shall we:

Hail Mary or Sancta Maria, STOP! there it is! calling on Mary is supplicating to Mary which is worshipping Mary! quite simple actually!

are we clear?

I see some are trying very hard to tell Christians what they believe again. It isn't working.

The concept of asking saints for intercession is not worship. It follows the same concept as asking someone else to pray for you. As Christians, or more specifically Catholics in this case, people who devoted their lives to Christ above and beyond the call of duty(saints) are not dead but have achieved eternal life in the light of God, therefor still able to pray for us. The fact that some Catholics appear to place too much emphasis on intercession with the saints is not a sign of Christian doctrine, but perhaps a lapse in personal judgement and understanding of Christian doctrine.

I agree with Keltoi's explanation, Yusuf.

I am not a Catholic, but Catholics would reply to your post that they may see Mary (and other saints) as intercessors in prayer, but not as deities.
Keltoi has said it better than me, so I'll leave it at that ...

format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor

from here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm



so let's quote "Three Persons being truly distinct one from another": is truly distinct from the lesser gods whom they call the Son and ththat means they the Christians have ONE GOD (NUMBER ONE), whom they call the Father who e Holy Spirit, and then they have ANOTHER god (NUMBER TWO) whom they have called the son, who is distinct from the OTHER [G]od[s] whom they call the Father and the Holy Spirit, and YET ANOTHER god (NUMBER THREE) called the Holy Spirit whom is distinct from the OTHER [G]od[s] whom they call the Father and the son.

NO. This is not what it means.

That is exactly my point. If you were taking a theology test at a Christian school and gave your interpretation as the answer to the question, "What is meant by the Trinity?" you would fail the test for you have it less than half right.


Your interpretation of what New Advent said is NOT what they actually said. Your (and the rest of Islam's) interpretation of the Trinity is NOT what Christians actually believe with regard to the Trinity. That is why I keep reiterating that Muslims first create and then debate scarecrows when arguing against the Trinity. Reject it all you want, but please reject the Trinity we actually believe in if it is the Christian Trinity you desire to reject. Both you (and even Muhammad (pbuh)) appear to have rejected something that I and the historic Christian faith don't believe in any more than you do.

As I have already said, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are indeed distinct persons (indeed as distinct as your definition makes them), but that must be held in tension with their indivisibleness as one God. As long as you focus only on one aspect, either the distinctiveness of the persons from one another, or only on the oneness of God and his separateness from humanity, then you will have a god that is less than the God of the Christian faith.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

So which is it? When the disciples refer to Jesus as Lord are they worshipping him or are they just using a title of respect?
So, are you claiming that the use of the term "Lord" is identifying a person as being worshipped?

The term Lord ,as you know better than me ,could be used either as a title of respect or to worship


John 13:4 He rises from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 5 After that he poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. 6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter said unto him, Lord,(respect) dost thou wash my feet?


Lord(God) Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, a sinner.


But it is not our issue ,our issue is that ,what violates the Quranic principles regarding monotheism?

The verse says:
9:31 They take their rabbis, priests and monks or ascetics to be their Lords* besides Allah. And they take as their Lord, the Messiah son of Mary.

Not

They call their rabbis, priests and monks or ascetics Lords.


Call Jesus ,Lord ,if you wish ,day and night ,never never take him as Lord besides God ....

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

one God and Father of all, who is above all, through all, and in all.Ephesians 4:6
What more proof of the monotheism of Christianity could you want than the verse you yourself just quoted?

you asked me,now let me ask you :what more proof of God not being triune,no one else like him,none else the same as his material ,could you want than the following verses:


""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"


Jesus said"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt. 24:36)

"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

Luke 23:46

Deut 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Note the verse doesn't say:

Deut 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is Jesus is sitting at his right hand


"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. ( Mark 12:29)"

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Your (and the rest of Islam's) interpretation of the Trinity is NOT what Christians actually believe
There are three distinctly different works, and yet each time the work was the work of God who is himself one Being.
there is to say about God who is at once three distinct persons and yet one indivisible being.
As I have already said, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are indeed distinct persons

Seeker ,You are at it again. When will you ever learn!?
As a matter of fact ,the problem is not that muslims don't understand what trinity IS ,It is that christians need to undestand what Trinity ISN'T.......

format_quote Originally Posted by Imam

If you keep using these terms, so you are obligated to provide definitions of "being" and "person" and a distinction between the two. Without a doubletalk, what are the differences? in fact, there are no differences
only obfuscation."Being" and "person" have no distinction and are merely elements of a ruse employed by christians. Because they can come up with two different words, they, therefore, claim they have two different entities.
If Jesus is God and the Father is God, then how can God be a being. It must be a quality such as Godhood or Godhead. But it is not a separate being per se. Christians call this three persons within one being but fail to admit that one of the beings is separate from the other three beings. Thus, there are not 3 persons within one being but 3 separate beings distinct from a fourth being which has a separate and distinct identity. On the other hand, whenever expediency dictates, Christians dissolve the beingness or personhood of God and turn him into nothing more than a general term, a rubric, into which the other 3 beings are absorbed, much like the words "mankind" or "dogkind" and use words like "Godhead" or "Godhood." Your argument is as,that Robert is a separate and distinct human; John is a separate and distinct human; therefore, "human" is a separate and distinct being.(The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy)

Is this the God that "is personal, for He speaks, wills, acts, and reveals Himself" or is this the God known as the Godhead, the Godhood, the general term encompassing the Trinity? If it is the former, then how on earth do three beings exist within a fourth being all of whom are separate from one another? If it is the latter, then how could it speak, act, and have a will to begin with? your failure, which is encompassed in a distinct aura of intentional avoidance, to adequately define what you are even talking about.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

even the article you linked to which argues for the possibility of Arabic being older than Hebrew backs up my contention that a Hebrew word would not have been derived from an Arabic word, for even in saying that Arabic may be older than Hebrew, it sees them as both being derived from a common ancestor language not and not Hebrew being derived from Arabic.

Yes, Hebrew is older than Arabic
No,Arabic is older than Hebrew

What does that change or add to our original point (Plural of Majesty?!!!

what matters not which is older,it is, do both(Hebrew,Arabic) ,besides Aramic, have such plural form for majesty...and that is the crux of the matter ......
and that is your style often ,Seeker ,whenever you fail to counter the basic arguments you resort to the trivial points ....

Salaam/peace;

I was browsing for a Catholic forum & ask them ; did not find any dialogue forum but found this.

Looks like not only Muslims , many Christians feel that Catholics are comtting blasphemy.

A Picture Says It All



by David Stewart



need a magnifying glass.............The picture to the left says it all, Jesus is barely visible…just as in the entire Catholic religion.

Mary is praised and mentioned hundreds of times more than the name of Jesus Christ ever is in the Catholic religion. Catholicism is Mary worship!

In a standard Rosary prayer, a Catholic will praise Mary 53 times (hail Mary’s).



Don’t tell me that Catholicism doesn’t worship Mary!!! The above photo says it all. Pope John Paul II worshiped Our Lady of Fatima (Mary) and not the Lord Jesus Christ.










http://onetruegod.wordpress.com/2008...e-says-it-all/

There isn't much to that site except some anti-Catholic propoganda. It makes a couple of statements and shows some photographs. If you truly wish to find out the Catholic doctrine on this issue, ask a knowledgable Catholic as you first intended.

Salaam/peace;

format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi

If you truly wish to find out the Catholic doctrine on this issue, ask a knowledgable Catholic as you first intended.

ok , InshaAllah i will try to find a Catholic Muslim dialouge forum tomorrow. It's late here now.

format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi

The concept of asking saints for intercession is not worship. It follows the same concept as asking someone else to pray for you. As Christians, or more specifically Catholics in this case, people who devoted their lives to Christ above and beyond the call of duty(saints) are not dead but have achieved eternal life in the light of God, therefor still able to pray for us. The fact that some Catholics appear to place too much emphasis on intercession with the saints is not a sign of Christian doctrine, but perhaps a lapse in personal judgement and understanding of Christian doctrine.

In Islaam, taking intermediaries between oneself and God is the very essence of polytheism as this was the very same belief that the pre-Islamic Arabs held with their idols. Any individual that reads the Qur'an will see clearly that this is the very shirk that is condemned throughout the Qur'an (along with other types of shirk as well). Islaam considers supplication to be the very essence of worship and it logically follows that if supplication is directed to any other than God, it violates the core of Islaam - Tawheed.

{And they worship other than God that which neither harms them nor benefits them, and they say, "These are our intercessors with God" Say, "Do you inform God of something He does not know in the heavens or on the earth?" Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him}[Yunus; 18]

If you notice, the verse is equating 'they worship other than God' with their claim 'These are our intercessors with God', i.e. taking intercessors with God is equal to worshiping those whose intercession is being sought. Therefore, it is clear that Islamic theology regards these types of intercession as shirk. This argument of intercession that the polytheists put forward is replied to with: 'Will you inform God of what He does not already know?'. This goes hand in hand with the concept of not giving God his just estimate (which is mentioned twice in the Qur'an, refer to chapter 22, verse 74, and chapter 39, verse 67), i.e. if one were to truly understand the greatness, majesty, power, honor, sanctity of God he would not ascribe these petty lies to Him such as claiming He has need for intercessors or that He has a son or that He is more than one.