Is there gender equality in Islam?

format_quote Originally Posted by cali dude

Instead of going through all of this, can some answer simple question?

I am sorry to say this but the above is indicative of a person who is insincere, if you would really and truly want answers then surely you would travel lenghts to find it, and if you found that difficult you would ask people to be more specific and point places from those threads, not just merely disregard them.

Then again that is a wrong doing to the self and not to others.

format_quote Originally Posted by cali dude

If a man is allowed to have many wives and if women are equal to men, are women allowed to have many husbands as well? :-)

I think first you should explain to us the understanding you have of equality. Do you think that men and women are equal so men should wear skirts? Do you think there should not be a seperate toilet, but rather just one toilet, do you think women should be allowed to go top less in the street? Many such questions are answered with a stern 'No' by those same people who profess the totally identicality of women, not equality but identicality. As though women and men are identical.

Maybe your terminology should be as I said before explained before commencing further.

format_quote Originally Posted by cali dude

Men not be able to have babies only proves that women are superior to men.

So now your telling us women are superior to men, but that seems contradictory!

Whilst if we take the stance that we as Muslims hold, i.e. they are equal in the sight of God, but in other matters of life one might naturally more adapt whilst in another the other might be more adapt, then we come to what you have said, i.e. women are superior in the area of having babies, whilst men might be superior in another field.

format_quote Originally Posted by cali dude

Have you heard of something called maternity leave?

Are you suggesting that women could have and support 4 husbands, whislt she was on maternity leave, so let me picture this, we according to this could have a work force of women, who would support men who would not have to work, and would support men even on maternity leave, which would be most of the time since they would be having 4 husbands. Which in practicality would mean that the people who cannot have kids and the older generation who are unable to get pregnant would do all the work, whilst the majority of women who can have kids would be on maternity leave alot of the time with husbands who would not work.

You seriously believe that would work?

format_quote Originally Posted by cali dude

It isn't matter of expecting her to earn money. It's a matter of if is earning money. I am pretty sure there Muslim female doctors, making lots of money. So why wouldn't she have the same rights as men?

Making the same amount of money does not change someone's gender. Can a man who makes the same amount of money as the average woman then say he should have the right to have kids?

format_quote Originally Posted by cali dude

I am not sure if this is true. I think it's the other way around :-)

Again your mistaken. Men can be aroused much quicker than women, men also reach their climax naturally quicker than women, so if a woman had more than one husband it would mean she would need to be able to keep them happy, which would be a hard task since males as I said are aroused quicker so it is unlikely she could respond to all of them at the same time, unlike females where their arousal is most of the time brought about by the husband's actions.

format_quote Originally Posted by cali dude

Malaikah,

We are not talking about her to provide, instead her ability to provide and once she is capable of providing, which I am pretty sure a lot of female Muslim doctors do, why doesn't she have the same rights as men? Why does she still have to wear burka and why does she still get beaten up by Talibans http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZiYT1ywtXxA?

Are you saying when a Muslim is makes a lot of money working as a doctor for example, she doesn't support family at all?

You seem to feel Burka is a punishment or a social badge that a women wears because she is of a lower class, and because she finally makes money she should be freed from such a thing, rather the covering of both men and women are not dependent on social status or income!

I cannot view that video incorect link the site is telling me but it is interesting you brought the taliban into the equasion.


Furthermore, I encourage you to let us touch on the fundamentals of Islaam, let me ask you for a change, do you have a religion or faith you follow, what is your belief system?

Do you have any problems with the attributes of God in Islaam?

Eesa

format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk

in general men are more lustful than women, in general, so no her argument is correct.

Maybe so. - Does not mean the need of 4 wives is acceptable. It's seen as a upperand by most muslim men.

format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

Maybe so. - Does not mean the need of 4 wives is acceptable. It's seen as a upperand by most muslim men.

The ruling for the 4 wives is that it is the maximum limit - a muslim isn't obligated to marry 4.

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

[B][COLOR="Green"]Again your mistaken. Men can be aroused much quicker than women, men also reach their climax naturally quicker than women, so if a woman had more than one husband it would mean she would need to be able to keep them happy, which would be a hard task since males as I said are aroused quicker so it is unlikely she could respond to all of them at the same time, unlike females where their arousal is most of the time brought about by the husband's actions.

I like the justification, No wonder it lures so many men to Islam.

format_quote Originally Posted by cali dude

But since it's one-on-one at a time, ability to satisfy multiple partner is not really a good argument, is it? I don't think men with multiple wives have sex with all every night, do you?

You're going around in circles.

I wish you could talk to either of my daughters. I think you would see that the views of a Muslimah are quite different than what it seems you have been lead to believe.

format_quote Originally Posted by cali dude

Today, it has been proven that women are equally capable as men.

Then how come, Islam doesn't provide with equality? For example, a man is allowed to beat his wife. A man can have many wives even though it's proven that women can equally capable of earning as much as men, in some cases even more than men. Then how come a woman isn't allowed to have many husbands if she can afford to do so?

Equality does not mean same in the sense of identical. It would be very unwise for women and men to have the same treatment for all situations in the name of equality.

That would mean unisexual treatment. No seperate male/female restrooms in public places. No time off work for maternity leave. Pregnancy would be viewed as a disorder that needs to be cured. Just a few thoughts that immediatly come to mind.


Now about the way women are treated in marriage, that would best be answered by a Muslimah that was in a Non-Muslim marriage prior to her reverting to Islam.

My youngest daughter had just that experience. I will not go into details but after her divorce she reverted to Islam and a few years later she married a very fine Muslim husband. She will immediatly tell anybody that she has found more freedom then she ever dreamed possible in her Muslim marriage. Just a few examples her husband can not touch a single penny of any money that is hers. But, he still has to provide for all of her finacial needs even if she has more money than he has. She has no obligation to pay for any household expenses. Yes, she does work and she does go to school. She has now been been a student for nearly 20 years and pursues as much education in whatever fields she desires as long as they are halal. She is in the medical field, most of it has been in pediatrics, she has just now decided to change her specialty to oncology. Her current tuition expenses are over $50,000 dollars. If she dosen't want to pay them herself her husband is obligated to pay them. She is also still working and earns a very good income. She does not use any of her income for household expenses. What she uses it for is very much halal and she is very pleased with where it goes. But her husband supports her in all of her living needs. He pays for her cars, gasoline etc. She has no necessary expenses except for what she desires. Fortunatly her desires are very admirable and as I said her income all goes for a very halal purpose. It is very doubtful she would find that much freedom in a "normal" marriage.

Now with the hijab. No man has the right to force a woman to wear the hijab. My daughter wears it by choice and if you where to try to take it off of her, I would suspect you would have a broken arm. Her husband can not make her remove it when she goes to public meetings although on occasion he has told her it might be best to not wear it in some places. She will not take it off for any man. She says she will be killed as a Muslim, before she would take it off to hide the fact she is Muslim.

When she was married her first time and was not Muslim her husband did make her dress as he felt best to promote his business image. She also shared responsability for his bills. She was expected to help pay for their living expenses so that they could present the image of their social status. Then the physical and emotional abuse she suffered at his hands was beyond belief. She was a true prisoner to his whims and at his mercy for all things. It took a very serious incident for her to break free and be able to get a divorce to bring an end to the torment her good western marriage put her through.

=cali dude;655198]Men not be able to have babies only proves that women are superior to men.

Women are superior? Do you think they made the baby without the help of a man? Fields cannot yield crops unless farmers sow the seeds.

Have you heard of something called maternity leave?

For a start, not everyone is entitled to maternity leave. Secondly it's not available in every country. And thirdly a woman will multiple husbands will probably be pregnant most of the time. So there's her ability to work and support her four husbands gone.

format_quote Originally Posted by nocturne

to simply put it. If a women were to marry a few men, and if she is to be pregnant. Would you know who the father is? (actually thinking about, nowadays u can find the lineage throught DNA tests).

DNA testing is not available in all the parts of the world. Even where it is, not everyone can afford it.

format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

I like the justification, No wonder it lures so many men to Islam.

I don't think so. It'd be easier to remain non muslim and have as many girl-friends/extra marital affairs as one wants. How many muslims/reverts do you know with four wives?



The permissability for polygamy is crystal clear in the Quran. If you read the verse below you'll notice that Allah commands men to marry only one if he fears he cannot deal with them justly. Therefore Islam actually restricts polygamy. There was no restriction on number of wives before islam. People of different beliefs still practice polygamy without restrictions today. Where the law forbids it, they just end up having extra marital affairs. Yet islam doesn't even allow polygamy for lustful desires. Only as a means to support women in need of protection/security.



And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course. (Quran 4:3)



Islam is a practical religion which provides solutions to all kinds social problems. It is not here to fulfil personal dreams and desires of those who submit to it. After the death of a man a woman is left to bring up her children alone with often no one to care for her or her children. What is the solution?

If she goes to work her children are left to fend for themselves. There's often very little if any discipline amongst such households as the mothers main concern is providing for her family. I've seen with my own eyes when mothers are out at work they're kids are out on the streets creating hell in the community. There's mothers out there doing 2-3 jobs just to keep a roof over her family's heads. Women have been known to turn to prostitution to supplement their income. What kind of life is that?

For a non muslim woman, having a boyfriend or remarrying isn't the solution either. By law he is not responsible for children of other men and often mistreats them. But in islam a man who marries a widow/divorcee is financially responsible for her and her children. Not only financially but in all matters of their welfare. Imagine how many social ills can be avoided if that happens.


It's a fact (reported in the Guardian) that the children of mothers who return to work full time in the years before they start school have slower emotional development and score less well in reading and maths tests, according to a study published by the Institute for Social and Economic Research. (Extracted from the full report.)[/


Islam is unique and wonderful in that it obliterates a woman from the burden and stresses of coping alone by allowing a man to take her into his care through the rules of polygamy.


Like I said before, a woman with 4 husbands would be pregnant most of her life, thus being unable to support them and their children. After childbirth her libido will be non existant if not low, thus being unable to cope with the sexual needs of four husbands.



Each year in March, Gallup measures the degree to which Americans are concerned about various U.S. domestic policy issues. While levels of concern can change from year to year, one finding remains constant: women tend to express higher degrees of worry than men do.



Therefore women won't even be able to cope on a psychological basis. Islam safeguards the interests of each person as an individual and as a part of society. No other religion has achieved the same and never will be able to do so. The wisdom behind Islamic teachings is simply indisputable.




Finally, I'm curious to know, as you seem very keen for women having the right to have four husbands, would you allow your wife to do the same?

peace.

format_quote Originally Posted by cali dude

Well Chris and all,

As you can see polygamy works only for certain places, for certain people and in certain situation. God's word would work universally.

WOuld be cool if you could provide an input to my reply I gave earlier if you have the time.

You state God's word would work universally, as Muslims we could not agree more.

format_quote Originally Posted by cali dude

Well Chris and all,

As you can see polygamy works only for certain places, for certain people and in certain situation. God's word would work universally.

The secret there is the word work. Sometimes for something to work, it can not be applied the same way in all places and at all times. This is the wisdom behind the conditions for polygamy. It can only work when those conditions are fulfilled.

If those conditions are not met it is forbidden. we are not permitted to decide when and where it can work, we are told that very clearly. This is not a matter and picking and choosing simply because we want it. We are permitted it only if we can fulfill the criteria, in fact there are situations under which it is obligatory even if we do not want it.

Allah's(swt) is applied universaly. What is said in one place applies in another. But, for something to be applied fairly universaly it has to be specificaly stated how it is applied. We are to feed the hungry also, does that mean we are to give an equal amount of food to each person in each place. Would it not be more sensible to give to each in accordance with their needs? That would mean a different amount for differen people in different times and places. A 50 pound 10 year old school girl in london is not going to have the same food requiremnts as a 200 pound 25 year old man living as a hunter in Alaska. Should they both be given an equal amount of food when they are hungry.