Discussion with Christians about The spirit of God

Salam Alaikum:

I guess I have to ask, what seems to be the obvious question as well....why would someone "preach" to a non-muslim offering proofs from the Qur'an?

They obviously don't accept the Qur'an is the word of God or they would be Muslims. So, saying you should leave your faith because the Qur'an says so isn't going to mean anything to a non-Muslim.

If a Christian told us, as Muslims, their bible says we are wrong, will we leave Islam? Not likely...so why would it be any different for them?


Wa'alaikum salam,
Hana

I was going to say the same as above, but I remember that I think the Prophet recited to many a people from the Qu'ran as a form of da'wah then I remembered also that those were arabic speakers who could percieve the linguistic miracle of the Qu'ran.

IslamicFajr, in honesty, I in my non-Muslim days would have not honestly payed attention not becuse it is not good but because it does not involve me, I think the above is amazing for muslims but not non muslims.Thats my sincere advise.


Eesa.

Just making some commentary on:

1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Interesting to note that this passage say's to test the prophet (one claiming to be), it does not say their will be no prophet.

Secondly the part highlighted Red is what all muslim attested to. Jesus (Al-Masih) is flesh and bone i.e. Human being.

Salam Alaikum and Peace:

I think when we are so passionate about our faith and we see things so clearly we feel others must also be able to see it and we forget that they don't share that.

I've heard of reverts that read the Qur'an once and reverted immediately. Or learn about Islam and within a week profess the Shahadah....then there is me. lol It took me over 3 years before I said the Shahdah, but I can honestly say, that no one could even come close to making me think there is another way. And now I feel like brother Islamicfajr.....it's SOOO clear in my mind and I really have to pull myself back and realize that the non-Muslims I'm talking to are where I was before I reverted and they also need the time to absorb everything. It was so easy to believe Islam was the truth....so, so easy. The hard part was letting go of what I knew and had always been taught. That reality can be extremely difficult, and for me it was. It's almost like a betrayal in a sense and I was angry...ufff, so angry.

So, we just have to have patience and try to understand how it feels to be on "the other side". I guess for me it's a bit easier in that regard because I've been there, so I can only advise those that haven't, to try to understand.

Wa'alaikum salam and peace,
Hana

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

I was going to say the same as above, but I remember that I think the Prophet recited to many a people from the Qu'ran as a form of da'wah then I remembered also that those were arabic speakers who could percieve the linguistic miracle of the Qu'ran.

Eesa.

Salam Alaikum, Brother:

I absolutely agree with what you said, and I think the other part is that prior to His prophethood, He was already so respected and well known that some were quick to believe He spoke the truth. Unfortunately, there was also a lot of suffering for them to endure, but in the end, Alhamdulillah, He was able to bring thousands into the folds of Islam.

For the rest of us, we're just words on a pc, or a face in the crowd so we have to careful when giving Da'wa that we don't become too aggressive in our efforts.

Just my humble opinion.

Wasalam,
Hana

Peace to you Eric:

If we are passionate about our faith it can cause us huge problems. The chances are you will remain a Muslim for the rest of your life and I will remain a Christian. Supposing we lived next door to each other for the rest of our lives, how could we reconcile being neighbours with all these conflicts of belief?

Through the wise words of the most passionate Muslim, our Prophet Muhammed, pbuh, as revealed by Allah, swt, (109:6) "To you be your way, to me mine."

Tolerance is a must. Allah, swt, guides whom He wills. And, in fact, as Muslims, we must be kind and just to our neighbours. Is this always easy? No, of course not. We are not perfect. So, this is something we must strive to achieve for the sake of Allah, swt.

To be honest, Eric, I have had many wonderful conversations with non-Muslims who were as passionate about their faith as I am about mine, but it requires mutual respect, patience and tolerance. However, I've also been on the other end, where the conversation took a nose dive. In those cases, "to you be your religion, to me be mine"...and stop the conversation as it serves no purpose at that point.

But, that does take a lot of practice, and I remind myself of that first.

Peace to you,
Hana

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

We believe that in rejecting this testimony, which was an eye-witness testimony to the life and teaching of Jesus, that one is rejecting not only the truth, but even rejecting the source of truth in one's life. How can we accept as true anything that would come from one who would deny that Jesus is God come in the flesh? We cannot. By that very denial, we know it is a false teaching.

.....Peace be upon those who follow true guidance...
1st:if u Turth seeker..plz Read n don't lie ur eyes..

“Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free” John 8:31 – (NIV)

about Jesus :
Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God, the second person in the "Holy trinity." However, the very Bible which is used as a basis for knowledge about Jesus and as the basis for doctrine within Christianity clearly belies this claim. We urge you to consult your own Bible and verify that the following conclusions are not drawn out of context:

1. God is All Knowing.....but Jesus was not
When speaking of the day of judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." Mark 13:32, and Matt 24:36. But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the day of judgment would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.

2. God is All Powerful.....but Jesus was not
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said,
"Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..."
St. John 5:19.

Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
St. John 5:30.

But God is not only all-powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.

3. God does not have a God.....but Jesus did have a God.

God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "l ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God."
St. John 20:17.

He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?"
Matt 27:46.

If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4),

was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless not as I will but as thou wilt."
Matt 26:36-39.

Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

4. God is an invisible spirit.....but Jesus was flesh and blood
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said. "No man hath seen God at any time."
St. John 1:18.

'"Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape."
St. John 5:37.

He also said in St. John 4:24. "God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.

5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him but Jesus acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from his own.

Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in St. John 14:28, "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as good master in Matt 19:17, Jesus responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." St. John 8:42. Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God,when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but thine be done" and in St. John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which hath sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.

Conclusion
The Church recognizes the Bible as the primary source of knowledge about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what basis have you come to believe otherwise?

My brother or sister, the belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as presented in the Bible. God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity.

If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

.......................................

What is the word of God about Jesus:

A. Regarding Sonship of Jesus:
That is Jesus, son of Mary, in word of truth, concerning which they are doubting. It is not for God to take a son unto Him. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing he but says to it "Be", and it is.
(Qur'an 19:34,35).

And they say, 'The All-merciful has taken unto Himself a son.' You have indeed advanced something hideous. The heavens are well nigh rent of it and the earth split asunder, and the mountains well nigh fall down crashing for that they have attributed to the All-Merciful a son; and it behoves not the All-Merciful to take a son. None is there in the heavens and earth but comes to the All-Merciful as a servant
(Qur'an 19:88-93).

Truly the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, "Be", and he was.
(Qur'an 3:59).

People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the Truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers. and say not, 'Three', Refrain, better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be on Him - that He should have a son! To Him belongs that which is in the heavens and on the earth, God suffices for a guardian.
(Qur'an 4:171)

B. Regarding Jesus being God:

And when God said. 'O Jesus son of Mary,did you say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God?" He Said, 'To You be Glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, You knew it, knowing what is within my soul, and I do not know what is within Your soul; You know the things unseen. I only said to them what You did command me: "Serve God, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a witness over them, while I remained among them; but when You did take me to Yourself the Watcher over them; You are the witness of everything.
(Quran 5:116,117)

C. Regarding Crucifiction of Jesus:
And for their unbelief, and their uttering against Mary a mighty calumny, and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God'...yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they did not slay him of certainty... no indeed, God raised him up to Him; God is Almighty, All-Wise. There is not one of the people of the Book but will assuredly believe in him before his death, and on the Resurrection Day he will be a witness against them.
(Qur'an 4:156-159)

....................
finally........

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O people of the Scripture! (Jews and Christians): Why do you disbelieve in the Ayaat of Allaah, [the Verses about Prophet Muhammad present in the Tawraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] while you (yourselves) bear witness (to their truth)?

O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?

And a party of the people of the Scripture say: ‘Believe in the morning in that which is revealed to the believers (Muslims), and reject it at the end of the day, so that they may turn back’”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:70-72]



Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

"O people of the Scripture (Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allaah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allaah and His Word, ('Be!' - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rooh) created by Him; so believe in Allaah and His Messengers. Say not: 'Three (trinity)!' Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allaah is (the only) One Ilaah (God), glory is to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allaah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs."
[al-Nisaa' 4:171]

peace,

islamicfajr

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Again, just like in another thread, I see that you don't have a good understanding of what Christianity teaches in this regard.

I am sure you understand how the same event might appear different to two different people depending on where they were standing and viewing the event from. Well, in reading the Bible, it is clear that you are reading it from an Islamic persepctive. I don't fault you for that, I could you do anything else. But, in doing so, you see things differently than those who belong to the book. Thus you get a mistaken idea about what it is all about.

.....Peace be upon those who follow true guidance...

Grace Seeker,i'm not misuderstand Christianity teaches....The differences in belief between us and Christians do not let us get close unless they give up their kufr (disbelief) and misguidance, and join the monotheists who believe in One Lord and God, and bear witness that the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is His Messenger, and believe that ‘Eesa (Jesus – peace be upon him) was a human being.

These are the most significant deviations in their religion, which widen the gap between us Muslims and them:

1. The Christian belief that the Messiah is the son of God.

2. The Christian belief that the Messiah (peace be upon him) is a god alongside God and that he is the second person of the holy trinity, according to their beliefs.

3. The belief that divinity may be incarnated in humanity.

4. The belief that God is formed of three Persons, which is known as the doctrine of the trinity.

5. The Christian belief that the Messiah (peace be upon him) was crucified by the Jews on the command of Pontius Pilate, and that he died on the cross.

6. The Christian belief that the Messiah died on the cross as a ransom for mankind and as expiation for original sin.

7. The Christian attitude towards the Jews who disbelieved in Jesus (peace be upon him) and claimed that they crucified him and killed him, and they accused his mother Mary (Maryam) of fornication – of which she was innocent – yet despite all that their attitude towards them today is one of support and loyalty, and their attitude towards the Muslims who venerate Jesus (peace be upon him) and his mother is one of enmity and disavowal.

8. Their distortion of the Book of God the Gospel (Injeel), whether they distorted the words by changing them or by adding words, or they distorted the meaning, and in doing that they attribute things to God that cannot be attributed to Him.

9. The doctrine of redemption, which is their belief that God sent His only son to redeem mankind from a sin committed by the father of mankind (Adam – peace be upon him), but God was unable to forgive his sin, so He sent His only son who had no sin, to sacrifice himself in order to do away with sin. This is an attribution of imperfection to the Lord of the Worlds and a denial of the fact that Adam (peace be upon him) repented and Allaah saved the Messiah (peace be upon him) from death.

10. Their disbelief in the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), even though he is mentioned in the Old and New Testaments.

11. Their belief in the soundness of the distorted Torah that they have in front of them today, which contains insults against God, describing Him as having shortcomings, and insults against the Prophets and Messengers, saying things that one can hardly dare utter, but we mention them in order to highlight the abhorrent nature of the kufr (disbelief) that they follow. They describe God as weeping with regret for the Flood which drowned the people of Noah, until His eyes became sore, and the angels came to visit Him – exalted be He far above that.

They describe Lot (peace be upon him) as committing incest with his two daughters, and Noah as drinking wine until he became drunk and his ‘awrah (nakedness) became visible. And there are even more foolish stories than that.

See Hidaayat al-Hayaara fi Awbah al-Yahood wa’l-Nasaara by Ibn al-Qayyim; Naqd al-Nasraaniyyah by Dr. Muhammad ibn ‘Abd-Allaah al-Saheem


finally, are u know that equation 1+1+1=1 makes no sense to any rational person, whether he is a mathematician or not.

then, I advise you (and I do not think that you will reject this advice) to think deeply about what you have read, putting aside your background, any pre-conceived ideas, your own desires and feelings of attachment to your religion or culture, and to seek guidance sincerely from Allaah. Allaah Most Generous and will never let any of His servants down. Allaah is the One Who guides to the Straight Path, and He is Sufficient for us and is the best disposer of affairs

format_quote Originally Posted by islamicfajr

Grace Seeker,i'm not misuderstand Christianity teaches....The differences in belief between us and Christians do not let us get close unless they give up their kufr (disbelief) and misguidance, and join the monotheists who believe in One Lord and God, and bear witness that the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is His Messenger, and believe that ‘Eesa (Jesus – peace be upon him) was a human being.

Islamicfajr, if you want to talk to anyone you have to open yourself, try to understand someone how is different. Not accept but try to understand.
Looking only form Islamic perspective at Christianity and Christians you want find anything there.
There is a reason why Grace Seeker and I have chosen this kufr (of "abhorrent nature"), misguidance, "polytheism", deviations, belief in the soundness of the distorted Torah and Gospel (you probably forgot to add the rest of Bible... or may term "foolish stories" was referring to it..? ).
Of course you can answer that we are not rational and that we can't count to 3.But I think that it might be a bit more complicated. That there is a point of view from which Christianity may have more sense than you like to present it.
You won't be able to give successful dawah unless you will try to see this point.

11. Their belief in the soundness of the distorted Torah that they have in front of them today, which contains insults against God, describing Him as having shortcomings, and insults against the Prophets and Messengers, saying things that one can hardly dare utter, but we mention them in order to highlight the abhorrent nature of the kufr (disbelief) that they follow. They describe God as weeping with regret for the Flood which drowned the people of Noah, until His eyes became sore, and the angels came to visit Him – exalted be He far above that.

They describe Lot (peace be upon him) as committing incest with his two daughters, and Noah as drinking wine until he became drunk and his ‘awrah (nakedness) became visible. And there are even more foolish stories than that.

We believe that prophets are humans. Because of this they are (very) imperfect. Only god is perfect.

format_quote Originally Posted by islamicfajr

.....Peace be upon those who follow true guidance...

Grace Seeker,i'm not misuderstand Christianity teaches....The differences in belief between us and Christians do not let us get close unless they give up their kufr (disbelief) and misguidance, and join the monotheists who believe in One Lord and God, and bear witness that the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is His Messenger, and believe that ‘Eesa (Jesus – peace be upon him) was a human being.

These are the most significant deviations in their religion, which widen the gap between us Muslims and them:

1. The Christian belief that the Messiah is the son of God.

2. The Christian belief that the Messiah (peace be upon him) is a god alongside God and that he is the second person of the holy trinity, according to their beliefs.

3. The belief that divinity may be incarnated in humanity.

4. The belief that God is formed of three Persons, which is known as the doctrine of the trinity.

5. The Christian belief that the Messiah (peace be upon him) was crucified by the Jews on the command of Pontius Pilate, and that he died on the cross.

6. The Christian belief that the Messiah died on the cross as a ransom for mankind and as expiation for original sin.

7. The Christian attitude towards the Jews who disbelieved in Jesus (peace be upon him) and claimed that they crucified him and killed him, and they accused his mother Mary (Maryam) of fornication – of which she was innocent – yet despite all that their attitude towards them today is one of support and loyalty, and their attitude towards the Muslims who venerate Jesus (peace be upon him) and his mother is one of enmity and disavowal.

8. Their distortion of the Book of God the Gospel (Injeel), whether they distorted the words by changing them or by adding words, or they distorted the meaning, and in doing that they attribute things to God that cannot be attributed to Him.

9. The doctrine of redemption, which is their belief that God sent His only son to redeem mankind from a sin committed by the father of mankind (Adam – peace be upon him), but God was unable to forgive his sin, so He sent His only son who had no sin, to sacrifice himself in order to do away with sin. This is an attribution of imperfection to the Lord of the Worlds and a denial of the fact that Adam (peace be upon him) repented and Allaah saved the Messiah (peace be upon him) from death.

10. Their disbelief in the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), even though he is mentioned in the Old and New Testaments.

11. Their belief in the soundness of the distorted Torah that they have in front of them today, which contains insults against God, describing Him as having shortcomings, and insults against the Prophets and Messengers, saying things that one can hardly dare utter, but we mention them in order to highlight the abhorrent nature of the kufr (disbelief) that they follow. They describe God as weeping with regret for the Flood which drowned the people of Noah, until His eyes became sore, and the angels came to visit Him – exalted be He far above that.

They describe Lot (peace be upon him) as committing incest with his two daughters, and Noah as drinking wine until he became drunk and his ‘awrah (nakedness) became visible. And there are even more foolish stories than that.

See Hidaayat al-Hayaara fi Awbah al-Yahood wa’l-Nasaara by Ibn al-Qayyim; Naqd al-Nasraaniyyah by Dr. Muhammad ibn ‘Abd-Allaah al-Saheem


finally, are u know that equation 1+1+1=1 makes no sense to any rational person, whether he is a mathematician or not.

then, I advise you (and I do not think that you will reject this advice) to think deeply about what you have read, putting aside your background, any pre-conceived ideas, your own desires and feelings of attachment to your religion or culture, and to seek guidance sincerely from Allaah. Allaah Most Generous and will never let any of His servants down. Allaah is the One Who guides to the Straight Path, and He is Sufficient for us and is the best disposer of affairs

Well, I must commend you for your summary. It seems that you do indeed understand more than I realized. However, there are still some things which you have said that Christians believe which are NOT among our beliefs. Please allow me to pull them out from what you have posted:

2. The Christian belief that the Messiah (peace be upon him) is a god alongside God and that he is the second person of the holy trinity, according to their beliefs.

The error in this statement is that we do not believe that the Messiah is a god alongside God. That would be two gods. Yes, we do believe that he is the second person of the holy trinity, but we still believe in just one being who is God. The expression of trinity is not three separate individual beings. It is one being who is know in three persons. There is a difference. It is a big difference. If you don't get the difference, you don't understand what Christians mean when speaking of the Trinity.

4. The belief that God is formed of three Persons, which is known as the doctrine of the trinity.

We do not believe that God is formed at all. God is eternal, the creator, not the created. The way a Christian might say what you have tried to express is that God is manifested (i.e. reveals himself) in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Yet, again, this is all one God, not three God we are speaking of.

7. The Christian attitude towards the Jews who disbelieved in Jesus (peace be upon him) and claimed that they crucified him and killed him, and they accused his mother Mary (Maryam) of fornication – of which she was innocent – yet despite all that their attitude towards them today is one of support and loyalty, and their attitude towards the Muslims who venerate Jesus (peace be upon him) and his mother is one of enmity and disavowal.

The only attitude that is enjoined on Christians to have toward others is that of Jesus Christ himself:

Philippains 2:5
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 4:22-24
You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

This attitude can best be summarized by the single word, Love. So, while some Christians may have the attitude which you describe, it is not a Christian attitude, and in fact may be a sinful attitude. Also, I suppose that there were probably those who did accuse Mary of fornication, it would seem likely. But this is mere supposition, there is nothing within Christianity which teaches that anyone ever actually accused her thusly.

8. Their distortion of the Book of God the Gospel (Injeel), whether they distorted the words by changing them or by adding words, or they distorted the meaning, and in doing that they attribute things to God that cannot be attributed to Him.

We would deny that there is any distortion. We hold that the teachings of the Old and New Testaments, as originally penned, are sufficient with regard to teaching all that is necessary for salvation. That if anyone asserts to the contrary of this, that it is they, not the scriptures, which are in error. We would not deny that we no longer possess the original documents, but we would assert that what we have still maintains the integrity of the original for the purposes of teaching with regard to faith, practice, and reproof.

9. The doctrine of redemption, which is their belief that God sent His only son to redeem mankind from a sin committed by the father of mankind (Adam – peace be upon him), but God was unable to forgive his sin, so He sent His only son who had no sin, to sacrifice himself in order to do away with sin. This is an attribution of imperfection to the Lord of the Worlds and a denial of the fact that Adam (peace be upon him) repented and Allaah saved the Messiah (peace be upon him) from death.

First, we do not understand Adam to be the father of mankind, but God.
Second, indeed God was able to forgive Adam his sin, and established a way for this in two parts. (a) There is the immeidate forgiveness seen in the creating of garments for Adam and Eve to wear from the skins of animals. (b) Even more importantly there is eternal forgivenss for all sin which you have spoken of in reference to the cross.
Third, this is not an attribution of imperfection to God, but a description of the way in which God in his perfect wisdom chose to work. Could he have done it another way? I don't have an answer to that, I suppose, but I am not God so I am incapable of knowing. What I do know is that God has revealed that this is in fact the way he did act. You are correct, we most certainly do deny that Allah saved the Messiah from death for that was the reason for which he came to earth -- not to declare Islam, but to offer his life as a sacrifice. God would make the sacrifice himself, that he had asked but spared Abraham (Ibrahim) from doing.

10. Their disbelief in the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), even though he is mentioned in the Old and New Testaments.

We believe any attempt to view Muhammad (pbuh) in either the Old or the New Testaments is a distortion of the proper understanding of the word of God.

11. Their belief in the soundness of the distorted Torah that they have in front of them today, which contains insults against God, describing Him as having shortcomings, and insults against the Prophets and Messengers, saying things that one can hardly dare utter, but we mention them in order to highlight the abhorrent nature of the kufr (disbelief) that they follow. They describe God as weeping with regret for the Flood which drowned the people of Noah, until His eyes became sore, and the angels came to visit Him – exalted be He far above that.

Yes, we do accept the Torah (and all the Tanakh) as being God's word and as sound. We do not see in it any insults against God, nor do we see in it any descriptions of God as having any shortcomings nor insults against prophets coming from God. Those that occur are on the lips of fallen, imperfect human beings, and need to be understood in that context. Also, I have just done a word search and cannot find any place where God is described as weeping. Pehaps you can point me to the verse(s) you have in mind.

12.??? They describe Lot (peace be upon him) as committing incest with his two daughters, and Noah as drinking wine until he became drunk and his ‘awrah (nakedness) became visible. And there are even more foolish stories than that.

Yes, the scriptures do show the very human side of many, including those who we look up to in the faith. Remember, none of us is perfect. I find it refreshingly honest that scripture does not try to cover up all failings.

finally, are u know that equation 1+1+1=1 makes no sense to any rational person, whether he is a mathematician or not.

You are exactly right such an equation makes no sense to any rational person. What is your point? The Bible never said that 1+1+1=1. And I never said it. There are some Christians who try to explain the Trinity in this way, I think it is a rather poor explanation, but that just means they are poor example givers, that doesn't mean that the Trinity is not true. We are not going to find something in the created world to serve as a good metaphor for the Creator God, any such attempt can at best, only explain in part what is in essence a mystery beyond human comprehension until we are joined with God in eternal life. As Paul said, "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known" (1 Corinthians 13:12).

format_quote Originally Posted by duskiness

Islamicfajr, if you want to talk to anyone you have to open yourself, try to understand someone how is different. Not accept but try to understand.
Looking only form Islamic perspective at Christianity and Christians you want find anything there.
There is a reason why Grace Seeker and I have chosen this kufr (of "abhorrent nature"), misguidance, "polytheism", deviations, belief in the soundness of the distorted Torah and Gospel (you probably forgot to add the rest of Bible... or may term "foolish stories" was referring to it..? ).
Of course you can answer that we are not rational and that we can't count to 3.But I think that it might be a bit more complicated. That there is a point of view from which Christianity may have more sense than you like to present it.
You won't be able to give successful dawah unless you will try to see this point.


We believe that prophets are humans. Because of this they are (very) imperfect. Only god is perfect.

.....Peace be upon those who follow true guidance...
duskiness,to know what i believe in.......here is basic principles of belief in Islam.....aslo should be used when any one give dawah......and the guidance from Allaah..

(1) One of the basic principles of belief in Islam, something which is obviously a basic principle and on which all the Muslims are agreed (ijmaa’) is that there is no true religion on the face of the earth apart from Islam. It is the final religion which abrogates all religions and laws that came before it There is no religion on earth according to which Allaah is to be worshipped apart from Islam. Allaah says (interpretation of the meanings):

“This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islâm as your religion”
[al-Maa’idah 5:3]

“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:85].

After the coming of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), Islam means what he brought, not any other religion.



(2) One of the basic principles of belief in Islam is that the Book of Allaah, the Holy Qur’aan, is the last of the Books to be revealed from the Lord of the Worlds. It abrogates all the Books that came before it, the Tawraat, Zaboor, Injeel and others, and it is a Muhaymin [Muhaymin: that which testifies the truth that is therein and falsifies the falsehood that is added therein] over them. So there is no longer any revealed Book according to which Allaah may be worshipped apart from the Qur’aan.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad) the Book (this Qur’aan) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Muhaymin (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures). So judge among them by what Allaah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you.”
[al-Maa’idah 5:48]



(3) It is obligatory to believe that the Tawraat and Injeel have been abrogated by the Qur’aan, and that they have been altered and distorted, with things added and taken away, as Allaah tells us in the Qur’aan, for example (interpretation of the meaning):

“So, because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them”
[al-Maa’idah 5:13]

“Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, “This is from Allaah,” to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby.”
[al-Baqarah 2:79]


“And verily, among them is a party who distort the Book with their tongues (as they read), so that you may think it is from the Book, but it is not from the Book, and they say: “This is from Allaah,” but it is not from Allaah; and they speak a lie against Allaah while they know it”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:78]


Hence, whatever in the previous books was correct is abrogated by Islam, and everything else is distorted and changed. It was reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) became angry when he saw that ‘Umar had a page with something from the Tawraat written on it, and he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Are you in doubt, O son of al-Khattaab? Have I not brought you something shining and pure? If my brother Moosa were alive, he would have no choice but to follow me.”
(Narrated by Ahmad and al-Daarimi, and others).



(4) One of the basic principles of belief in Islam is that our Prophet and Messenger Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the Seal of the Prophets and Messengers, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allaah and the last (end) of the Prophets”
[al-Ahzaab 33:40]

So there is no longer any Messenger whom it is obligatory to follow, apart from Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). If any of the Prophets were alive, they would have no choice but to follow him, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And (remember) when Allaah took the Covenant of the Prophets, saying: ‘Take whatever I gave you from the Book and Hikmah (understanding of the Laws of Allaah), and afterwards there will come to you a Messenger (Muhammad) confirming what is with you; you must, then, believe in him and help him.’ Allaah said: ‘Do you agree (to it) and will you take up My Covenant (which I conclude with you)?’ They said: ‘We agree.’ He said: ‘Then bear witness; and I am with you among the witnesses (for this).’”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:81]

When the Prophet of Allaah ‘Eesaa (peace be upon him) descends at the end of time, he will follow Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he will judge according to his Sharee’ah.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning);

“Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e. Muhammad) whom they find written with them in the Tauraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) — he commands them for Al-Ma‘roof (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained); and forbids them from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds, and all that Islam has forbidden); he allows them as lawful At-Tayyibaat (i.e. all good and lawful as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons and foods), and prohibits them as unlawful Al-Khabaa’ith (i.e. all evil and unlawful as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons and foods), he releases them from their heavy burdens (of Allaah’s Covenant with the children of Israel), and from the fetters (bindings) that were upon them. So those who believe in him (Muhammad), honour him, help him, and follow the light (the Qur’aan) which has been sent down with him, it is they who will be successful”
[al-A’raaf 7:157]

It is also one of the basic principles of belief in Islam that the Message of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is addressed to all of mankind.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And We have not sent you (O Muhammad) except as a giver of glad tidings and a warner to all mankind, but most of men know not”
[Saba’ 34:28]

“Say (O Muhammad): “O mankind! Verily, I am sent to you all as the Messenger of Allaah”
[al-A’raaf 7:158].

And there are many similar aayaat.



(5) One of the basic principles of belief in Islam is that we must believe that every Jew, Christian or other person who does not enter Islam is a kaafir, and that those against whom proof is established must be named as kaafirs and regarded as enemies of Allaah, His Messenger and the believers, and that they are the people of Hell, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Those who disbelieve from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikoon, were not going to leave (their disbelief) until there came to them clear evidence”
[al-Bayyinah 98:1]

“Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islâm, the Qur’ân and Prophet Muhammad) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikoon will abide in the fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures”
[al-Bayyinah 98:6]

“This Qur’aan has been revealed to me that I may therewith warn you and whomsoever it may reach”
[al-An’aam 6:19]

“This (Qur’aan) is a Message for mankind (and a clear proof against them), in order that they may be warned thereby”
[Ibraaheem 14:52].

And there are many similar aayaat. It was reported in Saheeh Muslim that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “By the One in Whose hand is my soul, no one among this nation, Jew or Christian, hears of me, then dies without having believed in that with which I was sent, but he will be one of the people of the Fire.” Hence whoever does not regard the Jews and Christians as kuffaar is himself a kaafir, according to the ruling of Sharee’ah, “Whoever does not regard the kaafir as such after proof has been established against him is himself a kaafir.”

............................
finally,

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And say: ‘The truth is from your Lord.’ Then whosoever wills, let him believe; and whosoever wills, let him disbelieve

[al-Kahf 18:29 – interpretation of the meaning]

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say: ‘O you mankind! Now truth (i.e. the Qur’aan and Prophet Muhammad), has come to you from your Lord. So whosoever receives guidance, he does so for the good of his own self; and whosoever goes astray, he does so to his own loss; and I am not (set) over you as a Wakeel (disposer of affairs to oblige you for guidance)’”[Yoonus 10:108]


Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taaghoot (false gods) and believes in Allaah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break”

[al-Baqarah 2:256]

And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And the duty of the Messenger is only to convey (the Message) plainly”

[al-‘Ankaboot 29:18]

....................
peace,
islamicfajr