I watched a film tonight called "ten commandments" as there was nothing on. It was quite good actually. I know the story anyway. If God did all this to help the Jews then, why does it not happen to people today? Why wasn't God there to stop Jesus being crucified yet he was there to help the Jews?
Well, since this thread is discussing question regarding Christianity, I'm still going to go on the assumption that Jesus is indeed God. But, the reason that he does not do anything in his own power is that, according to Philippians 2, Jesus emptied himself of his divine power when he became incarnate as a human being on earth:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
So, what he did he could only do in the very same way that any other human being could do them, by God (specifically the Father in this case) giving him the power to do it. In Jesus' case, I believe the Father did that by sending the Holy Spirit to indwell in the life of Jesus. Today, Christians have this same power available to them if we would only learn to live as submissive of a life as Jesus did.
---well , I wanted to know , in this world , who decides this ? The mainstream Christians can declare other groups as non-Christians ?
Ahhh. OK. Fair question.
Yeah, it pretty much works that way.
Although it works the other way also -- that is that many of the new and non-mainstream groups like to declare everyone else non-Christian.
So, each person pretty much has to determine for him or herself who is going to be the authoritative voice to whom they listen. Discerning who is and who is not trustworthy to speak on behalf of the church is often the most important and also difficult of the decisions one has to make.
I would counsel you to read widely, from different doctrinal backgrounds, but also to look for those who use reason over emotion to make their points. (But now you have to decide if my advice is trustworthy or not. See how tricky it gets.)
Most Christians believe in it, but of course you will have the occasional group such as the Unitarians who don't, although they aren't exactly Christians by their own admission.
Besides their own admission? The fact they do not accept the core belief system of Christianity. Unitarians are about spirituality and a rather "liberal" concept of religion. I'm not judging them, I'm simply saying, as they have, that they do not represent Christianity.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
I don't know. Nobody can tell me :sunny: I believe Jesus is the Son of God, not God Himself. I don't believe that it is imperative that we worship but to live the life we are given. God is our Father and he looks at us as his children and once we pass our spirit will hatch out of this egg shell we are in (physical body) and then our spirit is separated between the good and the bad. If you were good you are let into the "spirit world" which is a much better place than this. If you were bad you do not enter. I don't believe religion is a factor but you should be thankful to God.
Most of my beliefs derive from spiritualism. I have been to spiritualist churches in the past as members of my family have passed.
England
I have been a Catholic all my life, I have read the bible through and through again and I too believe in God the way you do. I do not believe that Jesus was actually God and I dont really go to church much anymore because I get more out of studying religion and reading books than someone reading to me. (I still go on Easter, Christmas, Lent, etc, just because to me church is church and God, I believe, is probably closer to you in a church than anywhere else) If you ever find out what religion this is, if there is even one be sure to let me know.
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."
- Bertrand Russell
"He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the
enemy." - George Washington
The word Christian was coined at Antioch in Syria meaning one who belongs to Christ. The word Christ is the Greek word for the Jewish word Messiah. Christians saw Jesus as the Messiah that God has sent to the Jews. Christians understood this role to be different than other Jews did, and thus the Jewish community split over whether Jesus was indeed the Messiah or not (most said "not"). Those that did attempted to follow not just Jesus' teaching, but believed that his very life made an impact on their lives. Unitarians do none of those things. They simply see Jesus as a good teacher about God. That is NOT what a Christian is. A Christian, as John so eloquently stated in his letter, is one who has fellowship with God through Jesus Christ.
Let me put it another way. Unitarians agree with a few (but not all) of the elemental beliefs of historic orthodox Christianity. Should such small agreement be sufficient to identifiy them as Christian to the rest of us, if they so choose to label themselves? There are some who say --If the individual calls himself/herself a Christian then he/she is. Well, let me apply that to Islam.
I happen to believe in some of the priniciples of Islam, namely that one should submit one's life to God/Allah. (I have no problem with using the Arabic word for God.) Indeed I try to live my life as one that is totally submitted to Allah's divine will in my life. I think I will start to call myself a follower of Islam. Now, I would think that the rest of the Islamic community would object to that. But if I choose that name, who is to say that I am wrong in using it? Answer: the Islamic community which says that there is more to being a follower of Islam than just the little I have said thus far. So, it is with Unitarians using the name Christian. They mean much less by it than the rest of us do.
There is more to being a Christian than just saying that you are a believer/follower/respector/observer (pick a term) of some of Christ's teachings. Christians live in relationship with God through Jesus Christ, which means participation in both his message AND his mission -- that mission includes all three of the following: recognition of his incarnation, repentance of one's own sin in the face of the reality of the Cross, and rejoicing in new life realized in us through the experience of the Resurrection.
Anything short of this is another religion. It is not historic, orthodox Christianity.
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 03-01-2007 at 07:05 PM.
I have been a Catholic all my life, I have read the bible through and through again and I too believe in God the way you do. I do not believe that Jesus was actually God and I dont really go to church much anymore because I get more out of studying religion and reading books than someone reading to me. (I still go on Easter, Christmas, Lent, etc, just because to me church is church and God, I believe, is probably closer to you in a church than anywhere else) If you ever find out what religion this is, if there is even one be sure to let me know.
Wow someone with the same beliefs as me! I've asked many many people on here what religion this is associated with and none have been able to give an answer. Alot of people have this belief though. My family have these beliefs and I know a few others too so I'm sure there is a name for it someway. Maybe it's a mix of different religions? I'll let you know if I find out.
There is more to being a Christian than just saying that you are a believer/follower/respector/observer (pick a term) of some of Christ's teachings. Christians live in relationship with God through Jesus Christ, which means participation in both his message AND his mission -- that mission includes all three of the following: recognition of his incarnation, repentance of one's own sin in the face of the reality of the Cross, and rejoicing in new life realized in us through the experience of the Resurrection.
Anything short of this is another religion. It is not historic, orthodox Christianity.
bismillah
Greetings and thanks for the response. However, I would have to disagree with the above.... so a Christian is not a Christian if he/she does not believe in the incarnation?
That is a very shaky claim. That is interesting however, in the case with the Unitarians, they believe that he was indeed the Son of God and was crucified, I do not see the difference between the two. I have a friend who is a Unitarian and she is glad to call herself a Christian, but she forsakes the notion that Jesus is God incarnate.
As far as their beliefs they do differ from Trinitarian Christianity thus:
1) the belief that human nature in its present condition is neither inherently corrupt nor depraved, but exactly as God created it and intended it to be from the beginning, capable of both good and evil;
2) the conviction that no religion has a monopoly on holy spirit or theological truth;
3) the belief that the Bible, while inspired of God, is written by humans and therefore subject to human error;
4) the rejection of traditional doctrines that malign God’s character or veil the true nature and mission of Jesus, such as the doctrines of predestination, eternal ****ation, the Trinity, and the vicarious sacrifice or satisfaction theory of the Atonement.
Lastly, Unitarian Christian beliefs have existed right from the life and times of Jesus (as); indeed many scholars argue to this day that Jesus himself was a Unitarian in outlook as were his most loyal followers including Mary Magdalene, Peter and Paul.
Over the past two millennia, many believers have sought to interpret the teachings of Jesus, and there have always been individuals and groups who have taken a Unitarian position (the Ebionites and Arians are examples of this). Unfortunately they have often been violently suppressed by others with differing viewpoints.
Wasalaam
Also, who says that just believing in Allaah/God alone is Islam. The statement of faith is of two parts:
negation and affirmation
Negation: There is nothing worthy of worship except the One true God
Affirmation: And Muhammad is His messenger.
This is Islam completely. All Muslims consider Muhammad (saw) a messenger however, there are differences in some sects who claim they are Muslims, but do not agree that Muhammad ibn Abdullah was the last prophet.
Wow someone with the same beliefs as me! I've asked many many people on here what religion this is associated with and none have been able to give an answer. Alot of people have this belief though. My family have these beliefs and I know a few others too so I'm sure there is a name for it someway. Maybe it's a mix of different religions? I'll let you know if I find out.
I have always thought it to be my logical mind combining the different religions I have learned about throughout my life. My family are full blown Catholics and I have tried to speak to my mom about this and she just says I need to talk to the priest and that she will pray for me. Problem is when I talk to the priest they just give you the same old rhetoric about needing to go with what the bible says, however I dont feel the bible actually says what they say and I wont just go with it because they say so. I am actually going to talk to the priest this weekend (I am going to church because of lent) and see if he has any answers for me, he is a new priest to me and from what I understand he is pretty intelligent, I will let you know with a PM on Monday what he says if you want. Should be pretty interesting
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."
- Bertrand Russell
"He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the
enemy." - George Washington
Also, who says that just believing in Allaah/God alone is Islam. The statement of faith is of two parts:
negation and affirmation
Negation: There is nothing worthy of worship except the One true God
Affirmation: And Muhammad is His messenger.
This is Islam completely. All Muslims consider Muhammad (saw) a messenger however, there are differences in some sects who claim they are Muslims, but do not agree that Muhammad ibn Abdullah was the last prophet.
Who says that just believing in Allah alone is Islam? I do. That is my point. If your friend can define Christianity as she has, a belief system that as you point out is not new, but has been rejected by the church as heretical over and over again, then I can do the same with regard to Islam. No, I don't hold to all the views of Islam, but if you can have Unitarian Christians, then welcome to the world of Trinitarian Muslims. If you find that a horrific thought, now you understand my objection to the other. It is equally horrific to me.
..... I think I will start to call myself a follower of Islam. Now, I would think that the rest of the Islamic community would object to that.
--well , to be a Muslim one needs to believe in ALL Prophets (pbut ) including Prophet Muhammed (p).
If one denies him as a Prophet , s/he can't be considered as a Muslim as s/he is denying the holy Quran , the Last Prophet (p) etc.
But , if someone believes that Jesus (p) is son of God , that definately does not make him/her a Jew or Muslim or Hindu .....s/he reads Bible as his/her holy book , she goes to Church , still why s/he can't be a Christian......what is s/he then ?
To believe that Jesus (p) is Saviour , is it a must to believe that he is also God ? Can't son of God be Saviour if father allows it ?
MTAFFI: I will let you know with a PM on Monday what he says if you want. Should be pretty interesting
---don't deprive us from that interesting discussion
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
--well , to be a Muslim one needs to believe in ALL Prophets (pbut ) including Prophet Muhammed (p).
If one denies him as a Prophet , s/he can't be considered as a Muslim as s/he is denying the holy Quran , the Last Prophet (p) etc.
You miss the point. That used to be the way it was in historic Islam. But, I've decided to change the rules. I want to call myself a Muslim, but I want to believe different things than the historic beliefs of Islam. I'm going to do with Islam what the Unitarians are doing with Christianity. I'm just going to start using that name, even if you say it isn't so. Too bad. If I want to call myself a Muslim, that ought to be enough to make me a Muslim, even if you fundamentalist types of Muslims don't accept it, don't worry, the rest of the world will. And then it is true.
I reiterate, I am just as much a Trinitarian Muslim as others are Unitarian Christians, one makes as much sense as the other. If you think the first does not make sense, fine; then admit that the latter does not either.
..... That used to be the way it was in historic Islam. But, I've decided to change the rules.
bro , hope i m not offending u. It's not the tradition or man made law ......It's the holy Quran that says so.
The Clans
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.
[33.40]
The Family of Imran
Say: O followers of the Book! come to an equitable proposition between us and you that we shall not serve any but Allah
and (that) we shall not associate aught with Him, and (that) some of us shall not take others for lords besides Allah;
but if they turn back, then say: Bear witness that we are Muslims.
[3.64]
And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear. 2.41
U can't be a Muslim if u think Jesus (p) is God ; also as it's mentioned in Quran that Muhammed (p) is the seal of the Prophets (pbut ) , it's a must to believe in him as the Last Prophet (p)............
If u can show 1 dozen verses from Bible that Jesus (p) is God , those who don't believe in it can also show u a dozen verses from Bible that there is no god besides One God ; so Jesus (p) is NOT God.
Jesus (p) said , my father is greater than all......so , why can't they believe in Jesus's (p) this saying & call themselves as Christians ? Those who are disobeying Jesus's (p) this saying , how come they are not denying the real teaching of Jesus (p) ?
I sincerely hope that i m not irritating u much
Last edited by Muslim Woman; 03-02-2007 at 01:28 AM.
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
bro , hope i m not offending u. It's not the tradition or man made law ......It's the holy Quran that says so.
The Clans
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.
[33.40]
The Family of Imran
Say: O followers of the Book! come to an equitable proposition between us and you that we shall not serve any but Allah
and (that) we shall not associate aught with Him, and (that) some of us shall not take others for lords besides Allah;
but if they turn back, then say: Bear witness that we are Muslims.
[3.64]
And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear. 2.41
U can't be a Muslim if u think Jesus (p) is God ; also as it's mentioned in Quran that Muhammed (p) is the seal of the Prophets (pbut ) , it's a must to believe in him as the Last Prophet (p)............
If u can show 1 dozen verses from Bible that Jesus (p) is God , those who don't believe in it can also show u a dozen verses from Bible that there is no god besides One God ; so Jesus (p) is NOT God.
Jesus (p) said , my father is greater than all......so , why can't they believe in Jesus's (p) this saying & call themselves as Christians ? Those who are disobeying Jesus's (p) this saying , how come they are not denying the real teaching of Jesus (p) ?
I sincerely hope that i m not irritating u much
No, you are not irritating me. And I hope that my outrageous claims (I do know they are outrageous) are not being taken too seriously, for it is not my intent to actually insult Islam or offend anyone.
But these objections you raise are the same that I raise regarding other who do not believe as the Bible teaches being called Christian. You said yourself that there are verses in the Bible where it teaches that Jesus is God. It is not something made up years later, it really is in the book that we believe is God's word.
Now Muslims believe that such teachings are corruptions and thus reject the whole Bible think that even what might be correct is abbrogated by the Qu'ran. I disagree, but at least I can respect that view. Unitarians like to go through it picking what they like and rejecting what they don't like. Thus the Bible isn't God's word at all to them, it is more like a recipe book. Select the dishes you like and serve them, but toss the rest aside as not of any value for you. That view I cannot respect.
What I would ask of the Muslims on this board is that they quit using the term Christian to talk about people who really aren't. If I who worships and submits my life to Allah as the one and only God, and who prays to him seeking his guidance in my daily life, and desires to do nothing more than to serve him and him only cannot be considered Muslim because I don't rever Muhammad as THE prophet, but only A prophet. Then surely you can understand that a person who rejects as true what the Christian scriptures teach:
(1) Jesus is the word of God who came in the flesh to dwell among us,
(2) Jesus offered his life as a sacrifce for the sins of the mankind
(3) Jesus died and rose again from the dead in accordance with the scriptures (here Jesus is referring to the teachings found in the Tanakh regarding the Messiah)
is also rejecting Christianity, and should not take such a name to discribe themselves. Doing so they make a mockery out of the Christian faith, pretending to be something they are not. When Muslims join them in calling these false Christians by the name Christian, they too are, in effect, doing the same thing.
Who says they are not Christian? The Bible does. And by their own website's description they admit as much but still use the name. They are simply Unitarian Universalists. Just leave off the name Christian when speaking of them and we will be fine.
Is is it same as English Methodist Mission?
For example they dont allow any statues in their church or Alcoholic wine for holy comunion
peace
I am not familar with the English Methodist Mission, so I would guess that it is not the same. But there are several different Methodist bodies scattered around the world. Nearly all trace their roots back through a man named John Wesley. If the English Methodist Mission does that, then they are at least "cousins" with the United Methodist Church.
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Uh, I don't know why I said that. My head must have been off in the clouds at the time I typed that. Sorry.
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