Jesus did not come to change the smallest part of God’s law.
Did Jesus say "When I am put on the cross I will destroy the ten commandments, I'll nail them to the cross?"
No! Absolutely Not!
They claim that Christ by His death abolished His Creator's law, which is without foundation.
He (P.B.U.H) said: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law." And it is written: "I delight to do Your will, O my God: yes, Your law is within My heart." Matthew 5; 17, 18; Psalm 40:8.
Jesus, himself, obeyed our Father’s (ceator not begetter) law and expected us to obey God’s law as well.
Jesus says "I have kept My Father's commandments.""I do always those things that please Him." John 15:10; 8:29, KJV.
"Love is the fulfilling of the law." Romans 13:10, KJV.
"Your law is truth"; "all Your commandments are righteousness." Psalm 119:142, 172, NKJV.
Paul says: I am dead to the law and law is dead to me
1. Corinthians 5:21--Paul said, "[the Father hath made him (Jesus) who knew no sin, to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." Jesus redeemed believers from the law by His death on the cross.
2. Galatians 3:13--Paul said, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse for the law, being made a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree."
3. Galatians 2:19-20--Paul said, "I, through the law, am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." Believers have died to the law and come alive in Christ.
Christians believe that Christ brought a new covenant to the world. However, that doesn't mean every law put forth by God is abandoned. The Ten Commandments are still one of the foundations of Christian law and morality.
The New Covenant is about eternal salvation, not the rewriting of Old Testament law. The Old Testament law was given to the Israelites to teach them that they were sinners. "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law..." (Romans 7:7).
Yet Christ brought about a new covenant: "He takes away the first that He may establish the second" (Hebrews 10:9). After Jesus was raised from the dead, He said: "...These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me" (Luke 24:44). All of the things that had been written about Christ in the law, prophets, and psalms were fulfilled when He died on the cross. Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets. When He fulfilled them, they were no longer needed.
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28).
Last edited by Keltoi; 02-28-2007 at 12:04 AM.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
Christians believe that Christ brought a new covenant to the world. However, that doesn't mean every law put forth by God is abandoned. The Ten Commandments are still one of the foundations of Christian law and morality.
Why was there a need for a new covenant? Isnt this a form of abrogation?
Christians believe that Christ brought a new covenant to the world. However, that doesn't mean every law put forth by God is abandoned. The Ten Commandments are still one of the foundations of Christian law and morality.
The New Covenant is about eternal salvation, not the rewriting of Old Testament law. The Old Testament law was given to the Israelites to teach them that they were sinners. "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law..." (Romans 7:7).
Yet Christ brought about a new covenant: "He takes away the first that He may establish the second" (Hebrews 10:9). After Jesus was raised from the dead, He said: "...These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me" (Luke 24:44). All of the things that had been written about Christ in the law, prophets, and psalms were fulfilled when He died on the cross. Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets. When He fulfilled them, they were no longer needed.
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28).
If He (P.B.U.H) said this: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law."
G-d Forbid, was it a falshood? or did heaven and earth disappear and I'm some being's dream?
also I have another confusion if He (PBUH) said:
And it is written: "I delight to do Your will, O my God: yes, Your law is within My heart."
Is He (PBUH) Implying that he himself is G-d (as trinitarins say) or he is pointing to/ addressing a different supreme diety?
If He (P.B.U.H) said this: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law."
G-d Forbid, was it a falshood? or did heaven and earth disappear and I'm some being's dream?
also I have another confusion if He (PBUH) said:
And it is written: "I delight to do Your will, O my God: yes, Your law is within My heart."
Is He (PBUH) Implying that he himself is G-d (as trinitarins say) or he is pointing to/ addressing a different supreme diety?
Peace
. . . there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” But now [Jesus] has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah - not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant . . ." says the LORD. “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days," says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people . . . In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (NKJV) Hebrews 8:4-13
The New Covenant did not do away with the Ten Commandments, only the observation of the Sabbath, and some dietary laws. The dietary laws were primarily for setting the people of Israel apart from those around them, and also for a very practical purpose, disease.
As for the passage you quoted with Jesus referring to God as seperate from Himself...that is because Jesus was flesh and fully human, but also One with God. This has been explained numerous times by various Christian members in other threads, and I don't want to bog this thread down with Trinity questions.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
Exodus:
You shall not make for yourself an image, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God
Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work
Deuteronomy:
you shall have no other gods before me
You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.
My Comment:
Had a thousand generations passed between the time Christ said:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law."
and Paul said: I am dead to the law and law is dead to me, (we have been given a new covenant by Christ). thus implying now its alright to worship statues of Christ and Holy Virgin, G-d was just kidding when he said:
You shall not make for yourself an image, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God
and Christ meant to add "subject to alteration by Paul later on when He said:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law." And it is written: "I delight to do Your will, O my God: yes, Your law is within My heart." Peace and goodnight to all
As a Christian, I believe that the Mosaic Law are the stipulations of the covenant made between God & Israel at Sinai. The stipulations are based upon the principle law: the 10 commandments, and particularly "Love the one God..." and "Love your neighbour..."
As Gentile Christians, we have a different covenant altogether. Thous some of our ethics are based upon the ten commandments, the only law that the New Testament reiterates is the Love law (God & neighbour).
The law still exists--it has not disappeared--and it testifies to the Gentile Christian of God's justice and mercy and love and the need for loyalty, submission & obedience, but we are not bound to it--it is not part of the covenant stipulation for the Gentile Christian.
Why was there a need for a new covenant? Isnt this a form of abrogation?
Well, for one thing, the Old Covenant was a covenant with the nation of Israel. To participate in it you had to convert to Judaism. In Jesus God made a new covenant that would be for all people, Jew and Gentile alike. The original Jewish Christians still actually kept the Old Covenant too, because they were also Jews, not just Christians. You are right that it is under Paul's direction that Christian left the Law behind as "old" and not relevant to them. But this makes sense, as Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles. Yet Paul clearly tells those who are Gentiles not to think of themselves as superior to Jews:
Romans 11
17If some of the branches [an anaolgious references to the Jews] have been broken off, and you [Gentiles], though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Also about the Jews, Paul asserts that "God's gifts and his call are irrevocable", so he still sees them as going to be saved -- whether through the Old Covenant or the New Covenant, I am not completely sure myself.
But for Gentiles who were not a part of the Old Covenant, this New Covenant is a sign of God's mercy.
^Just a note, Grace Seeker, the old covenant was never about "salvation"--they were already saved by God's election, but "saved" is not a Hebrew term, really. God continually saves-delivers his people.
^Just a note, Grace Seeker, the old covenant was never about "salvation"--they were already saved by God's election, but "saved" is not a Hebrew term, really. God continually saves-delivers his people.
hello
Then why according to Matthew 10:5-6 Once, when Jesus sent his disciples out, he advised them, "Do not go among the Gentiles, or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel".
In another place according to Matthew 15:24 Jesus said to a woman of Canaan, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
According to 1 preacher explaining above verses "The good news of the Kingdom of G-d was first to be preached to the Israelites and only later to others."
Then why according to Matthew 10:5-6 Once, when Jesus sent his disciples out, he advised them, "Do not go among the Gentiles, or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel".
In another place according to Matthew 15:24 Jesus said to a woman of Canaan, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
According to 1 preacher explaining above verses "The good news of the Kingdom of G-d was first to be preached to the Israelites and only later to others."
Ma'asalaama
Perhaps that's the case, but Jesus came to bring a message to Jews and provide a way of salvation to Gentiles as a Jewish messiah, but not in the same covenant. Jesus challenged contemporary spirituality, ethics, politics and theology in a rabbinic & pharisaic way, but that was also unique to his perspective. Part of that perspective was the revelation that God was Jesus-like, so even if Jews didn't believe Jesus, they were still accessing God through him.
Then why according to Matthew 10:5-6 Once, when Jesus sent his disciples out, he advised them, "Do not go among the Gentiles, or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel".
In another place according to Matthew 15:24 Jesus said to a woman of Canaan, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
According to 1 preacher explaining above verses "The good news of the Kingdom of G-d was first to be preached to the Israelites and only later to others."
Ma'asalaama
Breton's point is well taken. The relationship of the Messiah to Jews and of the Christ to Gentiles is not the same. (Though Messiah and Christ are the same terms, just in different lanauges.)
Jews did not seek salvation from God. You can still see that in conversation with present day Jews. They understood/understand themselves to be already chosen by God. Their covenantal responsibility is to live by the terms of the covenant, in other words to live as the people of God. Jesus' overall message to the Jews was one about the Kingdom of God and what it was like, and therefore how they should live their lives in the present as people of God's kingdom. This is what Jesus preached about and relates to the Old Covenant.
Jesus really had no message for Gentiles other than the universal statement of God's love. This message was more lived out than spoken. We see it in Jesus' interaction with the outcasts of his society, the lifting up of the downtrodden, the call to extend love to nieghbors (even Samaritan neighbors) and enemies, and ultimately in his atoning death on the cross. This is what Jesus did and is the basis for the New Covenant.
Breton's point is well taken. The relationship of the Messiah to Jews and of the Christ to Gentiles is not the same. (Though Messiah and Christ are the same terms, just in different lanauges.)
Jews did not seek salvation from God. You can still see that in conversation with present day Jews. They understood/understand themselves to be already chosen by God. Their covenantal responsibility is to live by the terms of the covenant, in other words to live as the people of God. Jesus' overall message to the Jews was one about the Kingdom of God and what it was like, and therefore how they should live their lives in the present as people of God's kingdom. This is what Jesus preached about and relates to the Old Covenant.
Jesus really had no message for Gentiles other than the universal statement of God's love. This message was more lived out than spoken. We see it in Jesus' interaction with the outcasts of his society, the lifting up of the downtrodden, the call to extend love to nieghbors (even Samaritan neighbors) and enemies, and ultimately in his atoning death on the cross. This is what Jesus did and is the basis for the New Covenant.
Hello and peace,
I still don't get it, though it might be more to do with me feeling unwell than your explanation, Perhaps we can talk again at a later time/date.
Ma'salaama (go in peace)
G-d willing I'll be back in full fettle by tommorow or day after. Hope to see you then (If He so wills)
Hello and peace,
I still don't get it, though it might be more to do with me feeling unwell than your explanation, Perhaps we can talk again at a later time/date.
Ma'salaama (go in peace)
G-d willing I'll be back in full fettle by tommorow or day after. Hope to see you then (If He so wills)
That's OK. Just get well and we'll see you back here when you are up to it.
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