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Question For The Non-muslims

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    Question Question For The Non-muslims (OP)


    salaam,

    From my experiences with non-Muslims, most of them usually have one or two main reasons why the aren't Muslim. Surprisingly, these reasons can be misconceptions sometimes.

    So my question is, what are the reason(s) that you have not accepted Islam?

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    Re: Question For The Non-muslims

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    What's so great about man? Our 'level' of what?
    Do you really think there isn't much difference between us and any other species? Our level of intelligence! Can an ape build a computer? Can a horse use other animals for transportation? We are just too advanced to even be compared with any other species.

    The Theory of Evolution is just that, a theory.
    Ever heard of the term "missing link", or intermediate species.
    The well-known evolutionist Ager admits this: "The point emerges that if we examine the fossil record in detail, we find–over and over again–not gradual evolution, but the sudden explosion of one group at the expense of another." The sudden origination of living beings on the earth is proof that they were created. (Derek V. Ager, "The Nature of the Fossil Record", Proceedings of the British Geological Association, Vol 87, 1976, p. 133.)

    Anyways, I am sure more educated people then us have argued the Theory of Evolution, which is why it is still a theory and not a Law.

    Our capacity for violence and self destruction? Our capacity to destroy our own environment? Our unique arrogance and selfishness? Or just our capacity to be miserable pretty much most of the time?
    It seems like you have a very negative outlook on life.
    Question For The Non-muslims

    قُلْ هَـذِهِ سَبِيلِي أَدْعُو إِلَى اللّهِ عَلَى بَصِيرَةٍ أَنَاْ وَمَنِ اتَّبَعَنِي وَسُبْحَانَ اللّهِ وَمَا أَنَاْ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

    Say: This is my way: I call to Allah, I and those who follow me being certain, and glory be to Allah, and I am not one of the polytheists.(12:108)

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    Re: Question For The Non-muslims

    format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah View Post
    Do you really think there isn't much difference between us and any other species? Our level of intelligence! Can an ape build a computer? Can a horse use other animals for transportation? We are just too advanced to even be compared with any other species.
    That hardly answers my point. Sure we are (probably) the most intelligent species but why is that such a big deal? Why does that give us the right to inflict our will (not to mention our knives and forks, in many cases) on less intelligent ones? No, an ape can't build a computer - neither could man until relatively recently. The old standard version of that argument was that only man used tools.. until we found out that some apes do as well. As to the horse, consider my cetacean example. What other species could a dolphin utilize for transport that can swim any quicker than the dolphin can?


    The Theory of Evolution is just that, a theory.
    As is the theory of gravity, the theory of quantum mechanics, the theory of electromagnetism, the theory of plate tectonics or the kinetic theory of gases. Why is it only evolution that is ever "just" a theory? All science is theories. 'Laws', such as the 'laws of gravity', are just formulations within a theory and are meaningless outside it.


    It seems like you have a very negative outlook on life
    I have a very positive outlook on life, but I do believe an essential part of that is in accepting its realities. Nuclear weapons won't be decommissioned or global warming stop overnight just because some people can see the sunny side of life (or, more usually, prefer just to ignore what is unpleasant or why we might not be quite so great after all).
    Last edited by Trumble; 03-03-2007 at 03:07 AM.

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    Re: Question For The Non-muslims

    Why does that give us the right to inflict our will (not to mention our knives and forks, in many cases) on less intelligent ones
    That is not the point that I was trying to make. The fact that we are so much more intelligent is a sign from God that we were created. You can point at an ape all day and say we came from that, but it just does not make any sense.
    Can you explain where life came from?
    Question For The Non-muslims

    قُلْ هَـذِهِ سَبِيلِي أَدْعُو إِلَى اللّهِ عَلَى بَصِيرَةٍ أَنَاْ وَمَنِ اتَّبَعَنِي وَسُبْحَانَ اللّهِ وَمَا أَنَاْ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

    Say: This is my way: I call to Allah, I and those who follow me being certain, and glory be to Allah, and I am not one of the polytheists.(12:108)

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    Re: Question For The Non-muslims

    format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah View Post
    The fact that we are so much more intelligent is a sign from God that we were created.
    You are just assuming what you are trying to prove. At any point in time one species must be more, and perhaps even much more, intelligent than the rest. That's a logical inevitability assuming (reasonably) that intelligence levels vary at all across species - why should it be a 'sign' of anything?


    You can point at an ape all day and say we came from that, but it just does not make any sense.
    It makes far more sense to me than some creation myth!

    Can you explain where life came from?
    Yes, but you would find it no more convincing than I would your explanation of where it came from. Or indeed your explanation of where God came from.

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    Re: Question For The Non-muslims

    It makes far more sense to me than some creation myth!
    Life can only come from life, no evidence of intermediate species (missing link), more like an evolution myth.

    I think this conversation is slowly reaching the agree to disagree point.
    Question For The Non-muslims

    قُلْ هَـذِهِ سَبِيلِي أَدْعُو إِلَى اللّهِ عَلَى بَصِيرَةٍ أَنَاْ وَمَنِ اتَّبَعَنِي وَسُبْحَانَ اللّهِ وَمَا أَنَاْ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

    Say: This is my way: I call to Allah, I and those who follow me being certain, and glory be to Allah, and I am not one of the polytheists.(12:108)

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    Re: Question For The Non-muslims

    format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah View Post
    I think this conversation is slowly reaching the agree to disagree point.

    Yup.

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    Re: Question For The Non-muslims

    Evolution is the best guess we have at how we came to be.

    Creation is the best story we have.

    The former strives for fact and blocks out desire.

    The latter strives for desire and blocks out fact.

    The former is adaptive.

    The latter is prescriptive.

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    Re: Question For The Non-muslims

    format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    2. Ritualistic Nature
    The Ritualistic Nature of Islam, to which I see leaves nothing to be admired. Ramadam to me seems a health risk more than anything else and a total disruption to any normal sleeping pattern. The same applies with Islamic Prayers. I do not see any purpose in these.
    Oddly enough, Ramadan is the my favourite time of the year- the idea of worshipping God all day by sacrificing food and drink, keeping ones cool and not becoming angry, the sympathy felt for the poor and hungry, the coming together of the family and community, the enthusiasm to increase in good deeds, the increased awareness of God...

    You don't know what you are missing out on.

    And the prayers are an excellent way of reminding a person of the purpose of life, dragging them away from the distractions of daily life to the remembrance of God and purification of the heart. They also work to expiate sins.

    And it is not ritualistic, only an atheist could truly say that, because you have no idea what goes on in the heart and mind of a person devoted to the worship of God. I guess you don't understand the feeling of security and calm it gives, and reminder of ones position in respect to everything else... and the beauty of the fact that everyone prays in the same way.

    Also, if you truly think that one can just pray by performing rituals without engaging their heart, then you are seriously mistaken.
    Last edited by Malaikah; 03-04-2007 at 12:12 AM.
    Question For The Non-muslims

    wwwislamicboardcom - Question For The Non-muslims

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    Re: Question For The Non-muslims

    format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy View Post
    We believe everyone is born Muslim i.e. in Submission to God. If u want to ask questions, ask it straight forward.

    If people could be born with submission to God without having Islam in their lives, why do you think they couldn't stay that way without having Islam in their lives?

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    Re: Question For The Non-muslims

    format_quote Originally Posted by AbuAbdallah View Post
    salaam,

    From my experiences with non-Muslims, most of them usually have one or two main reasons why the aren't Muslim. Surprisingly, these reasons can be misconceptions sometimes.

    So my question is, what are the reason(s) that you have not accepted Islam?
    I have the same belief in the one God as Islam.
    What I do not believe in is the Quran. At every page you notice that it has been written by 7th century people, not by God.

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    Re: Question For The Non-muslims

    format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah View Post
    Oddly enough, Ramadan is the my favourite time of the year- the idea of worshipping God all day by sacrificing food and drink, keeping ones cool and not becoming angry, the sympathy felt for the poor and hungry, the coming together of the family and community, the enthusiasm to increase in good deeds, the increases awareness of God...
    Ritualism:
    1. an established or prescribed procedure for a religious or other rite.
    2. prescribed, established, or ceremonial acts or features collectively, as in religious services.

    Well you make it sound nice, but that is what every belief system does with all religious ceremonies. They all enhance 'spirituality' and closeness to God, should they believe in one. I have nothing against people doing it if it helps them, or enhances them as an individual - I was just assessing why I would personally not like the idea of doing it.

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    Re: Question For The Non-muslims

    Greetings,
    format_quote Originally Posted by Cyril View Post
    I have the same belief in the one God as Islam.
    What I do not believe in is the Quran. At every page you notice that it has been written by 7th century people, not by God.
    I agree. I have studied texts of many kinds, and cannot see anything to suggest that the Qur'an stands out to such an extent that it must be the work of a supernatural author. It seems to me to be obviously the work of human hands.

    Peace

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    Re: Question For The Non-muslims

    ^^^^^ with all due respect that is because you have absolutely no knowledge of Arabic. If you did it would be as clear as day!

    as for the uselesness of fasting... here is someone with an MD who begs to differ...
    Medical Benefits of Ramadan
    Muslims do not fast because of medical benefits which are of a secondary nature. Fasting has been used by patients for weight management, to rest the digestive tract and for lowering lipids. There are many adverse effects of total fasting as well as of crash diets. Islamic fasting is different from such diet plans because in Ramadan fasting, there is no malnutrition or inadequate calorie intake. The calorie intake of Muslims during Ramadan is at or slightly below the nutritional requirement guidelines. In addition, the fasting in Ramadan is voluntarily taken and is not a prescribed imposition from the physician.

    Ramadan is a month of self-regulation and self training, with the hope that this training will last beyond the end of Ramadan. If the lessons learned during Ramadan, whether in terms of dietary intake or righteousness, are carried on after Ramadan, there effects will be long lasting. Moreover, the type of food taken during Ramadan does not have any selective criteria of crash diets such as those which are protein only or fruit only type diets. Everything that is permissible is taken in moderate quantities.

    The difference between Ramadan and total fasting is the timing of the food; during Ramadan, we basically miss lunch and take an early breakfast and do not eat until dusk. Abstinence from water for 8 to 10 hours is not necessarily bad for health and in fact, it causes concentration of all fluids within the body, producing slight dehydration. The body has its own water conservation mechanism; in fact, it has been shown that slight dehydration and water conservation, at least in plant life, improve their longevity.

    The physiological effect of fasting includes lowering of blood sugar, lowering of cholesterol and lowering of the systolic blood pressure. In fact, Ramadan fasting would be an ideal recommendation for the treatment of mild to moderate, stable, non-insulin diabetes, obesity, and essential hypertension.

    In 1994 the first International Congress on "Health and Ramadan", held in Casablanca, entered 50 extensive studies on the medical ethics of fasting. While improvement in many medical conditions was noted; however, in no way did fasting worsen any patients' health or their baseline medical condition. On the other hand, patients who are suffering from severe diseases, whether type I diabetes or coronary artery disease, kidney stones, etc., are exempt from fasting and should not be allowed to fast.

    There are psychological effects of fasting as well. There is a peace and tranquility for those who fast during the month of Ramadan. Personal hostility is at a minimum, and the crime rate decreases. Muslims take advice from the Prophet who said, "If one slanders you or aggresses against you, say I am fasting." This psychological improvement could be related to better stabilization of blood glucose during fasting as hypoglycemia after eating, aggravates behavior changes. There is a beneficial effect of extra prayer at night. This not only helps with better utilization of food but also helps in energy output. There are 10 extra calories output for each unit of the prayer. Again, we do not do prayers for exercise, but a mild movement of the joints with extra calorie utilization is a better form of exercise. Similarly, recitation of the Quran not only produces a tranquility of heart and mind, but improves the memory.

    One of the odd nights in the last 10 days of Ramadan is called the night of power when angels descend down, and take the prayer of worship to God for acceptance.

    Fasting is a special act of worship which is only between humans and God since no one else knows for sure if this person is actually fasting. Thus God says in hadith qudsi that "Fasting is for Me and I only will reward it". In another hadith, the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) has said "If one does not give up falsehoods in words and actions, God has no need of him giving up food and drink".

    * Author, Islamic Perspectives in Medicine and Health Concerns for the Believers. http://www.ISLAM-USA.com.
    E-mail: [email protected]

    Reprint Requests:
    S. Athar, MD
    Clinical Associate Professor
    Indiana University School of Medicine
    8424 Naab Road
    Suite 2D
    Indianapolis, IN 46260
    Question For The Non-muslims

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Question For The Non-muslims


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    Re: Question For The Non-muslims

    More research on the benefits of Ramadan on diabetes .....for those interested... there is tons more research done which I'll gladly post here for anyone interested.

    Ramadan Fasting and Diabetes Mellitus
    Fereidoun Azizi, MD, and Behnam Siahkolah, MD
    Endocrine Research Center,
    Shaheed Beheshti University of Medical Sciences,
    Tehran, I.R. Iran
    Abstract:
    The objective of this review article is to assist physicians who face the difficult task of advising diabetic patients about the safety of fasting during the Islamic month of Ramadan. There have been diverse findings regarding the physiological impact of Ramadan on diabetics. However, researchers have not found pathological changes or clinical complications in any of the following parameters in diabetics who fast: body weight, blood glucose, HbA1C, c-peptide, insulin, fructoseamine, cholesterol and triglycerides. In the guidelines section of the article, we strongly recommend diabetic patients continue their regular daily activity and diet regimen. It is also critical that diabetics adjust their drug treatments, particularly those patients diagnosed with insulin dependent diabetes mellitus (IDDM). We named these three important factors -- drug regimen adjustment, diet control and daily activity -- the "Ramadan 3D Triangle." With 3D attention, proper education and diabetic management, we conclude that most non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus (NIDDM) patients and occasional IDDM patients who insist on fasting can carefully observe Ramadan. Int J Ramadan Fasting Res. 2:8-17, 1998.

    INTRODUCTION

    Several of the world's great religions recommend a period of fasting or abstinence from certain foods. Of these, the Islamic fast during the Muslim month of Ramadan is strictly observed every year. Islam specifically outlines one full month of intermittent fasting. The experience of fasting is intended to teach Muslims self-discipline and self-restraint and remind them of the plight of the impoverished. Muslims observing the fast are required to abstain not only from eating and drinking, but also from consuming oral medications and intravenous nutritional fluids.

    The month of Ramadan contains 28 days to 30 days. The dates of observance differ each year because Ramadan is set to a lunar calendar. Fasting extends each day from dawn until sunset, a period which varies by geographical location and season. In summer months and northern latitudes, the fast can last up to 18 hours or more. Islam recommends that fasting Muslims eat a meal before dawn, called "sahur." Individuals are exempt from Ramadan fasting if they are suffering from an illness that could be adversely affected by fasting. They are allowed to restrain from fasting for one day to all 30 days,depending on the condition of their illness. People diagnosed with diabetes fall into this category and are exempt from the fasting requirement, but they are often loathe to accept this concession. Physicians working in Muslims countries and communities commonly face the difficult task of advising diabetic patients whether it is safe to fast, as well as recommending the dietary and drug regimens diabetics should follow if they decide to fast. The lack of adequate literature on this subject makes it difficult to answer these questions. To judge correctly whether to grant medical permission to fast to a diabetic patient, it is essential physicians have an appreciation of the effect of Ramadan fasting on the pathophysiology of diabetes mellitus. In this article, we first review principles of carbohydrate metabolism and alterations of certain biochemical variables in diabetics observing Ramadan fasting. We then overview current medical recommendations that allow certain diabetic patients to fast and outline terms for diabetic patients, particularly IDDM patients, who should not fast but insist on fasting.

    THE PHYSIOLOGICAL STATE OF DIABETICS DURING RAMADAN

    Carbohydrate metabolism during Ramadan fasting in healthy persons

    The effect of experimental short-term fasting on carbohydrate metabolism has been extensively studied (1,2). It has been uniformly found that a slight decrease in serum glucose to 3.3 mmol to 3.9 mmol (60 mg/dl to 70 mg/dl)occurs in normal adults a few hours after fasting has begun. However, the reduction in serum glucose ceases due to increased gluconeogenesis in the liver. That occurs because of a decrease in insulin concentration and a rise in glucagon and sympathetic activity (3). In children aged one years to nine years, fasting for a 24-hour period has caused a decrease in the blood glucose to half of the baseline figure for normal children of that age group. In 22% of these children, blood glucose has fallen below 40 mg/dl (4). Few studies have shown the effect of Ramadan fasting on serum glucose (5-9). One study has shown a slight decrease in serum glucose in the first days of Ramadan, followed by normalization by the twentieth day and a slight rise by the twenty-ninth day of Ramadan (6). The lowest serum glucose level in this study was 63 mg/dl. Others have shown a mild increase (7) or variation in serum glucose concentration (8,9), but all of them fell within physiological limits (6). From the foregoing studies, one may assume that the stores of glycogen, along with some degree of gluconeogenesis, maintain normal limits of serum glucose when a fast follows a large pre-dawn meal. However, slight changes in serum glucose may occur in individuals depending upon food habits and individual differences in metabolism and energy regulation.

    Body weight during Ramadan fasting

    (a) In normal subjects:
    Weight losses of 1.7 kg. (10), 1.8 kg. (11), 2.0 kg. (12) and 3.8 kg (13) have been reported in normal weight individuals after they have fasted for the month of Ramadan. In one study that was over-represented by females, no change in body weight was seen (14). It has also been reported that overweight persons lose more weight than normal or underweight subjects(12).

    (b) In diabetics:
    A review of literature shows controversy about weight changes in diabetics during Ramadan. (6,15-24). In one group of studies, patients had an increase in their weight (17,21). In another group, there were no change (15,19,22,23) or a decrease (6,16,18,20,24) in body weight. While no food or drink is consumed between dawn and sunset during the month of Ramadan, there is no restriction on the amount or type of food consumed at night (23,25). Furthermore, most diabetics reduce their daily activities (15,23) during this period in fear of hypoglycemia. These factors may result in not only a lack of weight loss, but also a weight gain in such patients (26). (See later discussion about nutrition and physical activity.)

    Blood glucose variations during Ramadan fasting in diabetics

    Most patients show no significant change in their glucose control (3,23,24,27). In some patients, serum glucose concentration may fall or rise (28-30). This variation may be due to the amount or type of food consumption, regularity of taking medications, engorging after the fast is broken, or decreased physical activities. In most cases, no episode of acute complications (hypoglycemic or hyperglycemic types) occurs in patients under medical management (9,15,16,22), And only a few cases of biochemical hypoglycemia without clinical hazards have been reported (17,19,25).

    Other parameters of diabetes control during Ramadan fasting

    In general, HbAIC values show no change or even improvement during Ramadan (15-18,20,22,23,25,27,28,32). Only two studies have reported slight increases in glycated hemoglobin levels(19,31). However, one report has emphasized the same increase in non-fasting patients as fasting patients (31), and the other has shown a return to initial levels immediately after the month of Ramadan (19).

    The amount of fructosamine (17,22,24,30,32), insulin, C-peptide(23,30) also has been reported to have no significant change before and during Ramadan fasting.

    Energy intake and serum lipid variables during Ramadan fasting in diabetics

    The amount of Energy (calorie) intake have been reported in some of the literature, indicating a decrease in energy intake (24,28).

    Most patients with non-insulin dependent diabtes mellitus (NIDDM, diabetes type II) and insulin dependent diabetes mellitus (IDDM, diabetes type I) show no change or a slight decrease in concentrations of total cholesterol and triglyceride (15-19,27,28,32). Increase in total cholesterol levels during Ramadan seldom occurs (23). As in healthy persons (33-36), few studies have reported increases in high-density-lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol in diabetics during Ramadan (18,19,27). One report indicates an increase in low-density-lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol and a decrease in HDL-cholesterol (28). Until there is a standardization of diabetes Ramadan research in three fundamental factors -- the Three D Triangle of drug regimens, diet control and daily activity -- the benefits or hazards of Ramadan fasting on diabetics serum lipids is unclear.

    Other biological parameters during Ramadan fasting in diabetics

    Serum creatinine, uric acid, blood urea nitrogen, protein, albumin, alanine amino-transferase, aspartate amino-transferase values do not show significant changes during the fasting period (15,17,32). Slight non-significant increases in some biological parameters may be due to dehydration and metabolic adaptation and have no clinical presentation.

    FASTING GUIDELINES TO DIABETICS

    During the last two decades, a better understanding of pathophysiological changes during Ramadan fasting in diabetic patients has provided a few guidelines on how to advise diabetics who want to fast. Physicians working with Muslim diabetics should employ certain criteria to advise their patients regarding the safety of Ramadan fasting.

    The following criteria should be helpful in making such a decision (20,37):

    Forbid fasting in:

    All brittle type I diabetic patients;
    Poorly controlled type I or type II diabetic patients;
    Diabetic patients known to be incompliant in terms of following advice on diet drug regimens and daily activity;
    Diabetic patients with serious complications such as unstable angina or uncontrolled hypertension;
    Patients with a history of diabetic ketoacidosis;
    Pregnant diabetic patients;
    Diabetic patients will inter-current infections;
    Elderly patients with any degree of alertness problems;
    Two or more episodes of hypoglycemia and/or hyperglycemia during Ramadan.
    Allow fasting in:

    Patients who do not have the aforementioned criteria;
    Patient who accept medical advisement.
    Encourage fasting in:

    All overweight NIDDM patients (except for pregnant or nursing mothers) whose diabetes is stable with weight levels 20% above the ideal weight or body mass index (body weight, kg/height, meters squared) greater than 28.
    EDUCATION OF THE DIABETICS BEFORE RAMADAN

    NIDDM patients and IDDM patients who insist on fasting should be given a few recommendations about fasting (16). They should be forbidden from skipping meals, taking medication irregularly or gorging after the fast is broken (26).

    The principles of pre-Ramadan considerations are (37):

    (a) assessment of physical well being;

    (b) assessment of metabolic control;

    (c) adjustment of the diet protocol for Ramadan fasting;

    (d) adjustment of the drug regimen e.g. change long-acting hypoglycemic drugs to short-acting drugs to prevent hypoglycemia);

    (e) encouragement of continued proper physical activity;

    (f) recognition of warning symptoms of dehydration, hypoglycemia and other possible complications.

    RECOMMENDATIONS DURING RAMADAN FASTING

    I. Nutrition and Ramadan fasting:
    Dietary indiscretion during the non-fasting period with excessive gorging, or compensatory eating, of carbohydrate and fatty foods contributes to the tendency towards hyperglycemia and weight gain (21,23). It has been emphasized that Ramadan fasting benefits appear only in patients who maintain their appropriate diets (24,38,39). Thus, in order to optimize control, diabetics must be reminded to abstain from the high-calorie and highly-refined foods prepared during this month (38).

    II. Physical activity and Ramadan fasting:
    Several studies indicate that light to moderate regular exercise during Ramadan fasting is harmless for NIDDM patients (15). It has been shown that fasting does not interfere with tolerance to exercise (40). It should be impressed upon diabetic patients that it is necessary to continue their usual physical activity especially during non-fasting periods (41)

    III. Drug regimens for IDDM patients:
    Some experienced physicians conclude Ramadan fasting is safe for IDDM patients with proper self-monitoring and close professional supervision (16). It is fundamental to adjust the insulin regimen for good IDDM control during Ramadan fasting. Two insulin therapy methods have been studied successfully

    1. Three-dose insulin regimen: two doses before meals (sunset and Dawn) of short-acting insulin and one dose in the late evening of intermediate-acting insulin (16)

    2. Two-dose insulin regimen: Evening insulin combined with short-acting and medium-acting insulin equivalent to the previous morning dosage, and a pre-dawn insulin consisting only of a regular dosage of 0.1-0.2 unit/kg (25).

    Home blood glucose monitoring should be performed just before the sunset meal and three hours afterwards. It should also be performed before the pre-dawn meal to adjust the insulin dose and prevent any hypoglycemia and post-prandial hyperglycemia following over-eating.

    IV. Drug regimens for NIDDM patients:
    Available reports indicate that there are no major problems encountered with NIDDM overweight patients who observe fasting in Ramadan (3). With proper changes in the dosage of hypoglycemic agents there will be low risk for hypoglycemia and hyperglycemia.

    The authors of the largest series of patients treated with glibenclamide during Ramadan recommended that diabetics switch the morning dose (together with any mid-day dose) of this drug with the dosage taken at sunset (31).

    V. Other health tips for reduction of complications:

    1. Implementation of the 3D Triangle of Ramadan -- drug regimen adjustment, diet control and daily activity -- as the three pillars for more successful fasting during Ramadan.

    2. Diabetic home management that consists of:

    Monitoring home blood glucose especially for IDDM patients, as described above;
    Checking urine for acetone (IDDM patients);
    Measuring daily weights and informing physicians of weight reduction (dehydration, low food intake, polyuria) or weight increase (excessive calorie intake) above two kilograms;
    Recording daily diet intake (prevention of excessive and very low energy consumption).
    3. Education about warning symptoms of dehydration, hypoglycemia and hyperglycemia.

    4. Education about breaking fast as soon as any complication or new harmful condition occurs.

    5. Immediate medical help for diabetics who need medical help quickly, rather than waiting for medial assistance the next day.

    6. Further attention on fasting during the summer season and geographical areas with long fasting hours.

    VI. IDDM children and Ramadan fasting:
    We do not encourage fasting for IDDM children. However, a few studies demonstrate that fasting is safe among diabetic adolescents. Of these studies, one study concludes that Ramadan fasting is feasible in older children and children who have had diabetes for a long time, and it concludes fasting does not alter short-term metabolic control. Nevertheless, fasting should only be encouraged in children with good glycemic control and regular blood glucose monitoring at home (25).

    POST-RAMADAN SUPERVISION OF FASTING DIABETICS

    After the month of Ramadan ends, the patients therapeutic regimen should be changed back to its previous schedule. Patients should also be required to get an overall education about the impact of fasting on their physiology (37).

    THE RESEARCH METHODOLOGY ON DIABETICS DURING RAMADAN

    From a methodological point of view, few research papers on Ramadan fasting are relevant because of the absence of control periods before Ramadan and afterwards, the absence of measurements during each week of Ramadan, a lack of attention to dietary habits, food composition, food value, caloric control, weight changes and the importance of the schedule during circadian periods.

    It is recommended that all these factors should be taken into consideration and that all intervening and confounding variables should be under control. It is clear that more work should be done on Ramadan fasting to evaluate physiological and pathological changes with proper research methods (42).

    Fasting during the entire month of Ramadan is reserved usually for healthy Muslims. However, many diabetic patients are allowed to fast periodically during Ramadan. The magnitude of periodic total fasting effect on blood glucose and hepatic glucagon depends on the number of fasting days (43), and this should be considered in all Ramadan fasting research activities.

    CONCLUSION

    The bulk of literature indicates that fasting in Ramadan is safe for the majority of diabetics patients with proper education and diabetic management. Most NIDDM patients can fast safely during Ramadan. Occasional IDDM patients who insist on fasting during Ramadan can also fast if they are carefully managed. Strict attention to diet control, daily activity and drug regimen adjustment is essential for successful Ramadan fasting.

    To shed more light on pathophysiological changes in Ramadan fasting, in particular in Muslims diabetics, it is recommended that a multicentric international controlled clinical trial be employed to assess the effect of differences in gender, races, physical activities, food habits, sleep patterns and other important variables on physiologic and pathologic conditions during Ramadan fasting.

    Address correspondence to:
    Prof. F.Azizi,
    P.O. Box 19395-4763, Tehran, I.R.Iran,
    Fax:+98-21-2402463,
    E-mail: [email protected]

    REFERENCES

    (1) Cahill GF Jr. Starvation in men. N Engl J Med .1970; 282:668-675.
    (2) Herber D. Endocrine response to starvation, malnutrition, and illness. In: DeGroot Ly (Edr), Endocrinology. Third edition, vol 3, Philadelphia: Saunders, PP 2663-2678, 1995.
    (3) Azizi F. Medical aspects of Islamic fasting.Med J IR Iran .1996; 10:241-246.
    (4) Chaussain JL. Glycemic response to 24h fast in normal children and children with ketosis hypoglycemia. J Pediatr. 1973; 82:438-443.
    (5) Haouri M, Haourai-Oukerro F, Mebazaa A, Nagati K. Circadian evolution of serum level of glucose, insulin, cortisol and total proteins in healthy, fasting volunteers. Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec. 1-3, 1997, Istanbul, Turkey, P 31.
    (6) Azizi F, Rasouli HA. Serum glucose, bilirubin, calcium, phosphorus, protein and albumin concentrations during Ramadan. Med J IR Iran. 1987; 1:38-41.
    (7) Scott TG. The effect of Muslim fast of Ramadan on routine laboratory investigation. King Abdulaziz Med J 1981; 1:23-35.
    (8) Khogheer Y, Sulaiman MI, Al-Fayez SF. Ramadan fasting state of controls. Ann Saudi Med. 1987; 7(suppl.): 5-6.
    (9) Davidson JC. Muslims, Ramadan and diabetes mellitus. BMJ .1979; 2:1511-1512.
    (10) Azizi F. Effect of dietary composition on fasting-induced changes in serum thyroid hormones and thyrotropin. Metabolism.1978; 27:934-945.
    (11) Sajid KM, Akhtar M, Malik GQ. Ramadan fasting and thyroid hormone profile. JPMA. 1991; 41:213-216.
    (12) Takruri HR. Effect of fasting in Ramadan on body weight. Saudi Med J. 1989; 10:491-494.
    (13) Sulimani RA. Effect of Ramadan fasting on thyroid function in healthy male individuals. Nutr Res. 1988; 8:549-552.
    (14) Shoukry MI. Effect of fasting in Ramadan on plasma lipoproteins and apoproteins. Saudi Med J. 1986; 7:561-567.
    (15) Ewis A, Afifi NM. Ramadan fasting and non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus : Effect of regular exercise. Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec. 1-3, 1997, Istanbul,Turkey, P 76.
    (16) Al Nakhi A, Al Arouj M, Kandari A, Morad M. Multiple insulin injection during fasting Ramadan in IDDM patients. Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec. 1-3, 1997, Istanbul, Turkey, P 77.
    (17) Klocker N, Belkhadir J, El Ghomari H, Mikou A, Naciri M, Sabri M. Effects of extreme chrono-biological diet alternations during Ramadan on metabolism in NIDDM diabetes with oral treatment. Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec. 1-3, 1997, Istanbul, Turkey, P 78-79.
    (18) Khatib F. Effect of fasting in Ramadan on blood glucose and plasma lipids in diabetics with NIDDM. Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec. 1-3, 1997, Istanbul, Turkey, P 42.
    (19) Uysal A, Erdogan M, Sahin G, Kamel N, Erdogan G. The clinical, metabolic and hormonal effects of fasting on 41 NIDDM patients, during the Ramadan 1997. Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec. 1-3, 1997, Istanbul, Turkey, P 44-45.
    (20) Athar S, Habib M. Management of stable type II diabetes NIDDM during Ramadan fasting. First International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Jan. 19-22, 1994, Casablanca, Morocco, P 29.
    (21) Rashed H. The fast of Ramadan: No problem for the well: the sick should avoid fasting. BMJ. 1992; 304:521-522.
    (22) Sulimani RA, Laajam M, Al-Attas O, Famuyiwa FO, Bashi S, Mekki MO. The effect of Ramadan fasting on diabetes control type II diabetic patients. Nutrition Research 1991; 11:261-264.
    (23) Laajam MA. Ramadan fasting and non insulin-dependent diabetes: Effect of metabolic control. East Afr Med J. 1990; 67:732-736.
    (24) Mafauzy M, Mohammed WB, Anum MY, Zulkifli A, Ruhani AH. A study of fasting diabetic patients during the month of Ramadan. Med J Malaya.1990; 45:14-17.
    (25) Salman H, Abdallah MA, Al Howasi M. Ramadan fasting in diabetic children in Riyadh. Diabet Med. 1992; 9:583-584.
    (26) Sulimani RA. Ramadan Fasting: Medical aspects in health and disease. Ann Saudi Med. 1991; 11:637-641.
    (27) Dehghan M, Nafarabadi M, Navai L, Azizi F. Effect of Ramadan fasting on lipid and glucose concentrations in type II diabetic patients. Journal of the Faculty of Medicine, Shaheed Beheshti University of Medical Sciences, Tehran, I.R. Iran. 1994; 18:42-47.
    (28) Bouguerra R, Ben Slama C, Belkadhi A, Jabrane H, Beltaifa L, Ben Rayana C, Doghri T. Metabolic control and plasma lipoprotein during Ramadan fasting in non-insulin dependent diabetes .Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec. 1-3, 1997, Istanbul, Turkey, P 33.
    (29) Niazi G, Al Nasir F. The effect of Ramadan fasting on Bahraini patients with chronic disorders. Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec. 1-3, 1997, Istanbul, Turkey, P 24.
    (30) Bagraicik N, Yumuk V, Damei T, Ozyazar M. The effect of fasting on blood glucose, fructosamine, insulin and C- peptide levels in Ramadan. First International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Jan. 19-22, 1994, Casablanca, Morocco, P 32.
    (31) Belkhadir J, El Ghomari H, Klocker N, Mikou A, Nasciri M, Sabri M. Muslims with non-insulin dependent diabetes fasting during Ramadan: treatment with glibenclamide. BMJ. 1993; 307:292-295.
    (32) Al Hader AFA, Abu-Farsakh NA, Khatib SY, Hassan ZA. The effects of Ramadan fasting on certain biochemical parameters in normal subjects and type II diabetic patients. First International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Jan. 19-22, 1994, Casablanca , Morocco, P 26.
    (33) Aldouni A, Ghalim N, Saile R, Hda N, Parra HJ, Benslimane A. Beneficial effect on serum apo AI, apo B and Lp AI levels of Ramadan fasting. Clin Chim Acta. 1998; 271:179-189.
    (34) Maislos M, Abou-Rabiah Y, Zuili I, Iordash S, Shany S. Gorging and plasma HDL-cholesterol - the Ramadan model. Eur J Clin Nutr. 1998; 52:127-130.
    (35) Aldouni A, Ghalim N, Benslimane A, Lecerf JM, Saile R. Fasting during Ramadan induces a marked increase in high-density -lipoprotein cholesterol and decrease in low-density-lipoprotein cholesterol. Ann Nutr Metab. 1997; 41: 242-249.
    (36) Maislos M, Khamaysi N, Assali A, Abou-Rabiah Y, Zvili I, Shany S. Marked increase in plasma high-density-lipoprotein cholesterol after prolonged fasting during Ramadan. Am J Clin Nutr. 1993; 57: 640-642.
    (37) Omar M, Motala A. Fasting in Ramadan and the diabetic patient. Diabetes Care. 1997; 20:1925-1926.
    (38) Tang C, Rolfe M. Clinical problems during fast of Ramadan. Lancet. 1989; 1:1396.
    (39) Omar M. Fasting and some chronic medical disease: Modifications in therapy. Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec. 1-3, 1997, Istanbul, Turkey, P 73.
    (40) Arab M. Different aspects of health in Ramadan among normal and diabetic persons. Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec.1-3, 1997, Istanbul, Turkey, P 36.
    (41) Horton ES. Exercise and decreased risk of NIDDM. N Engl J Med. 1991; 325: 196-199.
    (42) Roky R, Kotbi S, Taoudi Bencherkroun M, Benzai B, Aadil N, Iraki I, Moussamith S, Tazi A and Hakkou F. Bilbiographic study on Ramadan effect on physiology, pathology and therapeutic. Second International Congress on Health and Ramadan. Dec. 1-3, 1997, Istanbul, Turkey, P 82-83.
    (43) Sulaiman M, Zahir F, Khairy A. Effects of a Muslim-style fast on blood sugar and hepatic glycogen levels in rats. Saudi Med J. 1988; 9:503-508.
    Question For The Non-muslims

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    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Question For The Non-muslims


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    Re: Question For The Non-muslims


    Question:
    If people are born Muslim (in state of submission to God) why don't they stay that way during their lives?
    Answer:
    The Linguistic Meaning of Fitrah
    The Religious Meaning of Fitrah
    Fitrah and Human Responsibility
    Alienation from Fitrah
    The Christian Doctrine of Original Sin
    Appendix: Ibn Taymiyyah's View on Fitrah

    Introduction
    In attempting a definition of ‘fitrah’, I give an exposition of its linguistic and religious meaning. The religious understanding of fitrah is based on the positive interpretation of fitrah.
    Suffice it to say that linguistic and positive religious explanations have one thing in common: both define fitrah as an inborn natural predisposition which cannot change, and which exists at birth in all human beings. What makes our religious understanding positive is that it not only acknowledges fitrah as a natural predisposition, but also one which is inclined towards right action and submission to Allâh, the One God.
    After discussing the implications for human responsibility, I compare, for the benefit of Western readers, the Islamic concept of original goodness with the Christian concept of original sin. I argue that the doctrine of original sin, from an Islâmic point of view, cannot be reconciled with the notion of Divine mercy nor the human responsibility. Since the doctrine of original sin features significantly in the Christian concept of human nature, and as Islâm and Christianity are the world’s largest revealed religions, this aspect of their creeds presents an interesting contrast, well worth investigating.

    The Linguistic Meaning of Fitrah
    ‘Every new-born child is born in a state of fitrah. Then his parents make him a Jew, a Christian or a Magian, just as an animal is born intact. Do you observe any among them that are maimed (at birth)?’[1]
    The word fitrah comes from the Arabic radicals fa ta ra, the verbal noun being fatrun. The root action means, he clove, split, slit, rent or cracked it. Note the usage of the first form fatarahu (He created it); that is, He caused it to exist, newly, for the first time. Thus fatiru’s-samâwât, the Originator or Creator of the heavens.[2]
    The second form, fattara(hu) (verbal noun taftir), denotes repetition, muchness and frequency of the root action which means, as we saw, he clove, split, slit, rent or cracked it.[3] Futira (‘ala shay’) is equivalent to tubi‘a, which is the passive form of taba‘a (verbal noun tab‘un) he sealed, stamped, printed or impressed, being a synonym of khatama, he sealed. Ar-Râghib says that it means the impression of a thing with the engraving of the signet and stamp; thus taba‘a’llâhu ‘alâ qalbihî ‘Allâh sealed his heart’, that is the unbeliever’s heart. Similarly, khatama ‘alaihi, pertains to the natural constitution which denotes a quality of the soul; either by creation or habit, but more especially the creation.[4] Also, taba ‘a’llâhu ‘alâ amr – ‘Allâh created (him) with a disposition to the affair, state or condition’. Likewise, tubi‘a ‘ala shay’ ‘he was created with a disposition to a thing’ which is synonymous with jubila or futira.[5] Tab‘un – originally a verbal noun – signifies nature or an inborn disposition. Its synonyms are sajjiyah, jibillah, khalîqah, tabî‘ah and mizâj. These are names for innate natural disposition which cannot change, and which exists at birth in all human beings.[6] Thus, fitrah, having the same meaning as tab‘un, linguistically means an inborn natural disposition.
    The term fitrah literally means, creation; the causing a thing to exist for the first time; and the natural constitution with which a child is created in his mother’s womb. It is said that is the meaning in the Qur’ân (30:29), and in the central, opening hadîth.[7]

    The Religious Meaning of Fitrah
    In the context of the hadîth, according to Abû Haytham, fitrah means to be born either prosperous or unprosperous [in relation to the soul]:
    ‘And if his parents are Jews, they make him a Jew, with respect to his worldly situation; [i.e. with respect to inheritance, etc.] and if Christians, they make him a Christian, with respect to that situation; and if Magians, they make him a Magian, with respect to that situation; his situation is the same as that of his parents until his tongue speaks for him; but if he dies before his attaining to the age when sexual maturity begins to show itself, he dies in a state of conformity to his preceding natural constitution, with which he was created in his mother’s womb.’[8]
    Fitrah is also associated with Islâm and being born as a Muslim. This is when fitrah is viewed in respect to shahâdah – that there is no god but Allâh and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allâh – which makes a person a Muslim. Fitrah, in this sense, is the faculty, which He has created in mankind, of knowing Allâh. It is the natural constitution with which the child is created in his mother’s womb, whereby he is capable of accepting the religion of truth.[9] That fitrah refers to religion is further shown in a tradition in which it is related that the Prophet, may Allâh bless him and grant him peace, taught a man to repeat certain words when lying down to sleep, and said: ‘Then if you die that same night, you die upon the fitrah (in the true dîn).’ Also by the saying: ‘The paring of the nails is of the fitrah (i.e. of the dîn).’[10]
    This meaning is affirmed by sûrah 30 âyah 30:
    ‘Set your face to the dîn in sincerity (hanîfan) which is Allâh’s fitrah (the nature made by Allâh) upon which He created mankind (fatâra’n-nâs). There is no changing the creation of Allâh. That is the right dîn but most people know not.’
    Apparently Abû Hurairah, may Allâh be pleased with him, cited this verse after the central hadîth which means that, in his view, the fitrah of the hadîth is the same fitrah in the âyah. The âyah refers to the fitrah as good because the right religion is being described as Allâh’s fitrah. Thus according to Abû Hurairah, fitrah is associated with the dîn of Islâm.[11]
    Since Allâh’s fitrah is engraved upon the human soul, mankind is born in a state in which tawhîd is integral. Since tawhîd is intrinsic to man’s fitrah, the prophets, peace be upon them, came to remind man of it, and to guide him to that which is integral to his original nature. The âyah describes a fitrah of primordial faith which Allâh Himself implanted in human nature. It implies Islâm’s essential message of submission to the will of Allâh as taught as practised by the prophets.
    The Laws or the sharî‘ahs, which the prophets were sent with, are guiding lights to the essential faith in Allâh which is created in every human being. Furthermore, since this faith comes from Allâh, it naturally follows that only laws capable of guiding man back to it must also come from Allâh, hence Islâm is also called dîn al-fitrah, the religion of human nature.
    That every child is born in this pure state of fitrah is also supported by the following hadîth concerning the polytheists:
    ‘It is related that the Prophet, may Allâh bless him and grant him peace, said that he saw in a vision an old man at the front of a large tree and around him were children and in the vision he was told that the old man was Ibrâhîm and that the children who were around him were the children who, before attaining the age of discretion, had died. At this, some Muslims had asked hum: "And the children of the polytheists too, Messenger of Allâh?" The Prophet, may Allâh bless him and grant him peace, replied: "The children of the polytheists as well."[12]
    Being with Ibrâhîm meant being in Paradise, and this includes children of polytheistic families. It is clear, from the Qur’ân and from the hadîth, that every child is born with a pure nature, as a Muslim. Islâm recognises that all children, whether born of believing or unbelieving parents, go to Paradise if they die before attaining the age of discretion.
    Imâm Nawawî defined fitrah as the unconfirmed state which exists until the individual consciously acknowledges his belief. Hence, if a child were to die before he attains discretion he would be on of the inmates of Paradise. This view applies to the children of polytheists as well, and is supported by the above-quoted hadîth. The legal implication of this hadîth is that all children are born pure, sinless and predisposed to belief in one God; moreover they are of the inmates of Paradise; however, if their parents are non-Muslims, the religion of their parents will be applicable to them in this world.[13]
    Islâm is also called dîn al-fitrah, the religion of human nature, because its laws and its teachings are in full harmony with the normal and the natural inclination of the human fitrah to believe in and submit to the Creator. Like the word al-Islâm, the word dîn also means, according to Lane, obedience and submission, among other meanings. Allâh states:
    ‘And who is better in obedience (in dîn) than he who resigns himself to Allâh?’ (Qur’ân 4:125)
    ‘There shall be no compulsion in obedience (dîn).’ (Qur’ân 2:256)
    Ad-dîn implies religion in the widest sense of the word, embracing both the practical aspects of the acts of worship and ordinary transactions of life, and the teachings of religion; and it is a name for that whereby one serves Allâh.
    ‘Truly, the religion (dîn) in the sight of Allâh is al-Islâm.’ (Qur’ân 3:19)
    And, according to Lane, it means particularly the religion of al-Islâm. The synonyms of ad-dîn are ash-sharî‘ah (the law), tawhîd (Oneness of Allâh) and wara‘ (caution). Ad-dîn also comes from the verb dana, meaning ‘he had indebted’. This is significant, according to al-Attas, because man is indebted to Allâh for his existence and sustenance. The believer will realise that his spirit acknowledged Allâh in pre-existence, and that the debt that he must return is his self, and this can be done by service and submission to Allâh. This return implies a return to man’s inherent spiritual nature, to his fitrah. The one who submits to Allâh is called ‘abd (a slave) of Allâh, and his service is called ‘ibâdah (slavehood or conscious submission to the will of Allâh). By worshipping Allâh in such a manner, man in fulfilling the purpose of his creation and existence.
    ‘I have not created the Jinn and man but that they should serve Me (li ya‘budûnî).’ (Qur’ân 51:56)
    Such worship or submission does not entail loss of freedom, for, freedom is to act as one’s true nature demands; that is, as one’s fitrah demands. Al-Attas succinctly explains the connection between submission, fitrah and dîn as follows:
    ‘When we say that such a man is fulfilling the purpose for his creation and existence, it is obvious that that man’s obligation to serve God is felt by him as normal because it comes as a natural inclination on the man’s part to do so. This natural tendency in man to serve and worship God is also referred to as dîn, … here in the religious context it has a more specific signification of the natural state of being called fitrah. In fact dîn also means fitrah. Fitrah is the pattern according to which God has created all things… Submission to it brings harmony, for it means realisation of what is inherent in one’s true nature; opposition to it brings discord, for it means realisation of what is extraneous to one’s true nature.’[14]

    Fitrah and Human Responsibility
    Man is distinguished from the rest of the creation because he has been endowed with intellect (‘aql) and free-will (irâdah). The intellect enables him to discern right from wrong. He can use these faculties to complement his fitrah and to please Allâh or to be untrue to it and displease Allâh. The choice is his. The prophets and Divine revelation are external sources of guidance to guide the intellect and will of man. The Qur’ân declares that the Prophet, may Allâh bless him and grant him peace, enjoins the right and lawful things (ma‘rûf) and forbids the wrong and unlawful things (munkar). Man is responsible for his actions and accountable to Allâh for every atom of right and wrong that he does. It is in this sense of accountability that guides man to act in accordance with the Divine will. It empowers him to struggle against the wrong-doing of his lower self (nafs) as well as the negative influences of the social circumstances. The central hadîth makes plain that it is the social circumstances after the birth of the child that causes the individual to diverge from fitrah. Hence if someone follows an aberrant path it is not because of any innate wrong within his nature, but because of the emergence of the lower self or nafs after birth, and negative effects in the social circumstances.
    The concept of fitrah as original goodness, in my view, does not merely connote a passive receptivity to good and right action, but an active inclination and a natural innate predisposition to know Allâh, to submit to Him and to do right. This is man’s natural tendency in the absence of contrary factors. Although all children are born in a state of fitrah, the influence of the environment is decisive; parents may influence the religion of the child by making him a Christian, Jew or Magian. If there are no adverse influences, then the child will continuously manifest his fitrah as his true nature. Since many infants are born with gross physical deformities, the maiming referred to in this hadîth is not meant in the physical sense; it means that all children are born spiritually pure, in a state of fitrah. The reference to animals born intact in the central hadîth should be viewed as an analogy to illustrate the parallel spiritual wholeness of children at birth.
    It is precisely because of man’s free-will and intellect that he is able to overcome the negative influences of the environment and attain to the highest level of psycho-spiritual development, an-nafs al-mutma’innah, ‘the self made tranquil’. At this level, his inner and outer being, his soul and body, are able to conform to the requirements of his fitrah and the dictates of the sharî‘ah. He actualises his fitrah, and attains psycho-spiritual integration and inner peace.

    Alienation from Fitrah
    The central hadîth suggest that circumstantial (i.e. parental and other social) influences cause man to change and become alienated from his fitrah. However in Qur’ân 30:30 (‘There is no changing in the creation of Allâh.’) suggests that fitrah is universal unchanging given of the human constitution. This meaning is consistent with the linguistic definition of fitrah as innate natural disposition which cannot change, and which exists at birth in all human beings. The synthesis of the meanings of both statements is that although fitrah remains a universal unchanging given of the human constitution, people may, because of the elements of intellect and free-will, decide and choose to conduct themselves in a wrong or unlawful manner. All the children of Adam, including those who deviated from the path of tawhîd[15], possessed fitrah. Civilisations which have been condemned and destroyed by Allâh because of their practice of polytheism (shirk) and unbelief (kufr), possessed fitrah. Fitrah is a universal and immutable given of the metaphysical human constitution, and as a rule, cannot be corrupted or altered. No wrong action can pollute the Divine spirit [modifier’s note: i.e. spirit created by God] which Allâh has blown into man (Qur’ân 15:29) despite the many generations of polytheism and unbelief. For example, a generation whose forefathers were mushrikûn (those who practice shirk) does not possess a fitrah of a lesser quality than a generation of believers. However, both shirk and kufr represent the antithesis of fitrah by undermining its very object and raison d’etre; kufr is a rejection of the oneness of Allâh (tawhîd). When a individual commits shirk or kufr he denies his own nature. Fitrah which is integral to man’s spirit (rûh) was created by Allâh so that he man acknowledge Him as the Lord Who has power over all things. Tawhîd is intrinsic to man’s fitrah because Allâh in His infinite wisdom intended for man to know Him as the One God. This is why man was able to acknowledge his Lord before his existence on earth, that is, in pre-existence state.
    The function of the prophets and Divine revelation is not only to remind man about that which he already knows (that is, tawhîd), but also to teach him that which he does not yet know (that is, sharî‘ah). Man already knows tawhîd because of the pre-existent fitrah as well as his earthly unchanging fitrah. The prophets have come only to remind man of tawhîd; the choice is left to the individual, as suggested in the following verse:
    ‘Surely, this is a reminder; so whoever wills, let him take a way to his Lord.’ (Qur’ân 76:29)
    Knowledge of the Divinely revealed laws, the methodology of worship and devotion, etc. are acquired by man from sharî‘ah which is based on Divine revelation and the teachings of the prophets. Since every individual is endowed with the innate knowledge of tawhîd, he is held accountable for his belief in Allâh precisely because of his fitrah. Not every soul, however, will be held accountable for not practicing sharî‘ah because knowledge of sharî‘ah is acquired only by those who received the message of the Divine revelations and the teachings of he prophets.
    The distinction between the inborn knowledge of tawhîd (which includes the knowledge of right and wrong) and the acquired knowledge of sharî‘ah (which includes what is lawful and unlawful) is significant because of the legal implications of each. The mushrik, one who violates tawhîd, will not be pardoned for his polytheism, irrespective of whether he received the message of Islâm or not. On the other hand, the practice of sharî‘ah is only required from the Muslim while the non-Muslim (who did not receive the message of Islâm) is not expected to fulfill this obligation. An individual may be forgiven for not practising the sharî‘ah if he had not received the message of Islâm, but he will not be forgiven for rejecting tawhîd. The Muslim will thus be held responsible for tawhîd and sharî‘ah. Dr. Faruqi Ahmad Dasuqi,[16] who holds this view, adds that the hunafa’ [17] of past centuries had acknowledged tawhîd and will not be held accountable for sharî‘ah.
    Apart from the chosen prophets, I venture to say that there is no difference between the fitrah of individual men: all men are endowed with the same or an ‘equal’ fitrah. The believer is in harmony with his fitrah because his instincts are directed in service of Allâh, but the unbeliever is alienated from his fitrah because his instincts are in the service of everything else besides Allâh. The reason for man’s destruction of himself and his environment is that he has become alienated. Nevertheless, he can overcome this estrangement his will and intellect with the Divine will and knowledge. It is man’s recourse to Islâm which will enable him to effect such a reconciliation.

    The Christian Doctrine of Original Sin
    Religions may be contrasted with secular philosophies in that the former recognise the transcendent principle of human nature while the latter tend to view man as a material being. Religions usually refer to this transcendent principle as the spirit or the soul in man. Most religions recognise three dimensions within man: body, mind and spirit. Secular theories of human nature tend to recognise only the body and sometimes the mind. Western psychologists such as Carl Jung recognise the spiritual dimension not as an independent unchanging reality, but as a part of the human psyche. Religions in general, with the exception of Hinayana Buddhism, recognise the spiritual dimension of man as a distinct unchanging reality of human nature. The first step towards self-knowledge is the recognition of our inmost spiritual essence which is universal in man and which is immortal. It is this innate spirituality which explains the urge at the heart of every man for betterment and self-realisation; and it is this human spirit which explains man’s capability to emerge out of darkness into light and goodness. This emergence has been the unfailing history of man: nothing can stop the human soul from projecting itself nearer to the source of all good, Allâh. Islâm and Christianity both recognise this innate spirituality but they differ in the methods by which to attain to this self-realisation, and they also differ in the methods by which they attain to this self-realisation, and they also differ with respect to their views of innate human nature. For the Christian view I need to turn to the doctrine of original goodness in Islâm. Such a comparison will bring into focus the divergent perspectives of human nature of two major religions of the world.
    Christianity, in all the varied forms in which it exists today, is probably the largest religious movement. It emerged out of Judaism as a religion of salvation by faith. Christianity became a universal religion of redemption, and its world-renouncing strain has been strong for a great part of its history. Judaism and Islâm were never so dominated by monasticism and the ideal of celibacy. This is not to say that Christianity did not have a world affirming strain in it. The Kingdom of God was an imminently arriving state of this earth. With emphasis on the person of Jesus, peace be upon him, rather than his preaching, salvation was to be by rather than his preaching, salvation was to be by faith-union with Jesus in his supposed death and resurrection. Jesus, peace be upon him, was exalted to heaven and acclaimed as Lord, Son of God, and the meaning of Messiah – an anointed prophet-king – was altered radically.
    Paul was the main figure to work out Christian theology almost entirely in terms of the doctrine for man. Jesus’ two worlds are reinterpreted in terms of a great contrast between man in bondage to the flesh and man redeemed in Christ. This theology is set out in the first eight chapters of The Epistle to the Romans.[18] The flesh (sarx) is man in his weakness and the spirit (pneuma) is the Divine breath and power of life which makes man inwardly aware of himself as a person. The whole person is either bound to sin or redeemed in Christ. As a rabbinically trained Jew, Paul had to integrate his new gospel of salvation with the old doctrine of creation and so he began the development of the Christian epic story:
    ‘Creation had originally been perfect, but Adam fell and mankind has since been in bondage to sin; but through Christ, the second Adam or Last man, the world or mankind are being restored to their original perfection. Thus in the Christian doctrine of man the central theme is that Christ is the Creator’s proper (=own) Man.[19]
    To make this scheme more intelligible, Paul had to emphasise both the parallels and the contrasts between Adam and Christ, peace be upon both of them. Adam was first made in the image of God, but Christ is the true and final image of God. Adam’s disobedience plunged mankind into ruin, but Christ’s obedience restored mankind. Adam brought wrath and guilt upon mankind, Christ has brought grace and acquittal.
    This contrast profoundly affected later Christian thought. The Christian doctrine of man has two themes, the Divine image and the Fall. Since the latter theme is more directly relevant to my discussion of original sin I shall focus on this aspect, Adam’s disobedience plunged the human race into ruin, and fallen man could not of himself do good, please God or gain salvation.
    A good example of the classic Christian doctrine of man is Milton’s Christian epic Paradise Lost (1667). The themes are the special creation of man by God, the Divine image in man, original righteousness, the Fall through man’s disobedience, the curse on man and woman, and the ensuing original sin. This scheme was wrecked by Darwinism and today liberal and humanistic theologians take over the evolutionary view of man’s gradual ascent, seeing Christ as a pinnacle of human development. Others, such as Rudolph Bultman and Paul Tillich, have built their theology on an existentialist doctrine of man.
    The Christian is born in sin and in an impure state, and cannot redeem himself by his own inner resources, but only through Christ. Salvation for the Christian is centred on an external entity – the mystical body of Christ in which the Christian must participate in order to be saved.
    By contrast, in Islâm the redemptive potential is centred in the individual himself, who engages in meaningful intercourse with the guidance provided by the Qur’ân and the Sunnah, Salvation in Islâm depends on faith (îmân) and good conduct (ihsân), and not on faith alone. The Qur’ân emphasises the exertion of will, for ‘there is nothing for man but that which he strove for’. This notion of the will also has implications for responsibility. A person is responsible only for the manner in which he exercised his own will and not the will of other persons.
    Christians believe that Christ has paid the wages of sin through his death, and having suffered for all men’s sins. Salvation is based on this faith. Without the doctrine of original sin there would be no need for a saviour and, consequently, the trinity, the crucifixion and the resurrection would become meaningless.
    Islâm rejects the premises of these doctrines, especially the concept of original sin which is alien to Islâm and inconceivable to the Muslim mind. Islâm has a different version of the Fall. Adam acknowledged that he had gone astray and sincerely sought Allâh’s forgiveness which was granted to him unconditionally. Adam and his progeny descended from bliss to the earth because of his error, and yet, none of his children inherited the blame for his error. The volitional implication of fitrah is that man is responsible for his own wrong actions. It is inconceivable to Muslim thinking that mankind should be punished for wrong actions that others did. The concept of Divine forgiveness features strongly in the Qur’ân, for Allâh accepts the sincere repentance of His slaves.
    ‘But the devil made them slip from it, and caused them to depart from the state in which they were. And We said, "Down with you and be henceforth enemies unto one another; and you shall have in the land a state of settledness and necessities of life for a period."
    Then Adam received words (of guidance) from his Lord and He accepted his repentance: truly, He is the Acceptor of Repentance, the Compassionate.’ (Qur’ân 2:36-37)
    Tawbah (literally, turning, i.e. away from wrong action, and to Allâh) or repentance plays a very significant and decisive role in a Muslim’s life. Although man is born in a state of original goodness or fitrah, he is also subject to temptation and folly. Allâh has granted him the ability and opportunity to repent which means that he should admit his errors and turn remorsefully away from them to Allâh.
    Knowledge of Divine mercy as well as knowledge of the innate goodness of the human fitrah, serves three very important functions: firstly it gives the believer hope of salvation and success; secondly, it gives him confidence in his own potential to do right and resist wrong; thirdly, it exhorts and admonishes him to actively pursue all that is right and resist all that is wrong. These are the merits of sincere repentance. Just as the Prophet Adam, peace be upon him, repented and was pardoned for his wrong action, so may his descendents repent and be pardoned for their wrong actions.
    Confession and penance is a fundamental pillar of the Roman Catholic Church, but for the rest of the Christian world it holds virtually no fundamental value. Belief in Christ as a Saviour is of primary importance, even for the Catholic who engages in penance mainly as a means of self-discipline or self-retribution. No amount of confession or repentance can save the Christian from the belief in Christ as the Saviour. Adherence to this doctrine can be problematic when viewed in the light of the doctrine of original sin.
    Neither Islâm, common sense or modern Western law, hold a person responsible for the deeds of someone else. Certain awkward questions may also be posed to the adherents of this doctrine. For example, does inheritance of Adam’s sin mean that man is born innately sinful or guilty of a sin he did not commit or both? Did Christ’s suffering change human nature or did it only absolve man of guilt for the sin he never committed, or both? If man is born innately evil and sinful why is he still capable of choosing good over evil? What happened to the souls before Christ who could have had the benefit of the latter’s alleged suffering; were they saved by the Saviour they neither knew nor acknowledged or were they just too unfortunate to be born at the wrong time? These questions are asked in all sincerity of the believing Christian whose faith every Muslim is required to respect.
    To conclude, fitrah may be defined as a natural predisposition for good and for submission to the One God… While the concept of fitrah offers a hopeful and positive outlook for the Muslim, the doctrine of original sin is fraught with negative connotations and complex dogma. To the average Christian, man is impure and bound for eternal ****ation, even if he leads a life of virtue, if he does not accept Christ as his saviour. Apart from the Christian theory, there are secular theories of human nature which are also subject to determinism, fatalism and pessimism.
    If, in this chapter, the reader has not gained a clear conception of what fitrah is, it should at least be clear to him what it is not. Fitrah does not refer to man’s outward behaviour; not to his psyche, personality or character. A definition of fitrah does not involve the role of man as an individual or a collectivity as such. Rather, fitrah pertains to the deep, common spiritual essence of man. It is humankind’s natural and universal innate predisposition for goodness and submission to One God.

    Notes and References
    [1] I. M. Hanîf, Sahîh Muslim bisharh al-Nawawî, Book of Qadr, Vol. 16 (al-Matba‘at al-Misriyyah bi al-Azhari, 1930) p. 207.
    [2] Ibn Manzûr, Lisân al-‘Arab al-Muhît. Vol. 4., ed. A. al-‘Alayali, (beirut: Dâru Lisân al-‘Arab, 1988), pp. 1108-1109; cf. also, al-Isfahânî, al-Raghîb, Mu‘jam Mufradat Alfaz al-Qur’ân ed. Nadîm Mar‘ashlî. (Dârul Karîb al-‘Arabi, 1984) p. 2415; cf. also, Lane, E. W., Arabic-English Lexicon. 2 volumes, Cambridge: The Islamic Texts Society, 1972), p. 397.
    [3] This repetition also applies to the 7th form verb infatara, 5th form tafattara and the 1st form fatara, e.g. idha’s-samâ’unfatarat ‘When the heaven shall be cleft’, (Qur’ân 82:1), and yakadu’s-samâwâtu yatafttarna minhu ‘The heavens almost become repeatedly rent in consequence thereof’, (Qur’ân 19:92), and tafatarat qadamahu ‘his feet became cracked’.
    [4] Lane, Ibid., p. 1823; al-Isfahânî, al-Raghîb, Kitâb al-Dharî‘ah ila Makarim al-Sharî‘ah. Ed. Abû’l-Yazîd al-‘Ajamî, (Cairo, 1987), p. 113.
    [5] Lane, Ibid, p. 1823.
    [6] Yasien Mohamed, The Islamic Conception of Human Nature with Special Reference to the Development of an Islamic Psychology. unpublished thesis, (Cape Town: Department of Religious Studies, University of Cape Town, 1986), p. 74; cf. also, Lane, Ibid., p. 1823; al-Isfahânî, al-Dharî‘ah, op.cit., p. 113; al-Isfahânî, Alfaz, op.cit., p. 310.
    [7] Ibn Manzûr, Lisân al-‘Arab, op.cit., p. 1109; cf. also Lane, Arabic-English Lexicon, op.cit, pp. 2415-2416.
    [8] Ibn Mazûr, Ibid. p. 1109; Lane, Ibid., pp. 2415-16.
    [9] ‘Alî ibn Muhammad al-Sayyad al-Sharîf Jurjânî, Kitâb al-Ta‘rifat ed. ‘Abdul Mun‘îm al-Hafani. (Cairo: Dârul Rashad, 1991), p. 190; cf. also Ibn Manzûr and Lane, Idid.
    [10] See Ibn Manzûr and Lane, Ibid.
    [11] Muhammad al-Ansârî A. A. Qurtubî, Al Jâmi‘u al Ahkâm al-Qur’ân Vol. 12 Part 14. (Cairo: al-Maktabu al-‘Arabiyyah, 1967), p. 25.
    [12] Ibid, p. 30; cf. Ibn Manzûr, Ibid.
    [13] Ibn Taymîyya Dar‘u Ta‘arud al ‘Aql wa al Naql. Vol. 8, ed. Muhammad Rashad Sa’im. (Riyadh: Jami‘at al-Imâm Muhammad ibn Sa‘ud al-Islamiyyah, 1981), p. 382-3.
    [14 ] S.M.N. Al-Attas, Islam, Secularism and the Philosophy of the Future, London: Mansell Publishing Limited, 1985, pp. 57-58.
    [15] cf. Lane, op.cit., for the meaning of the ad-dîn.
    [16] Tawhîd is the corner-stone of the Islâmic belief which was taught by all the prophets. The Arabs deviated form tawhîd but it was restored to its original purity with the advent of Muhammad, may Allâh bless him and grant him peace, Divine Unity is expressed as lâ ilâha ill’Allâh ‘There is no deity but Allâh’ and together with his expression of Muhammadun Rasûlu’llah ‘Muhammad is the Messenger of Allâh’, a person is admitted into the fold of Islâm. Tawhîd implies that Allâh is One, and that He is one and unique in His essence (dhât), His attributes (sifât), and His works. This monotheistic concept of Allâh liberates man from subservience to everything and everyone, and is the basis for the unity of mankind. The antithesis of tawhîd is shirk which is considered to be the only unforgivable wrong action (Qur’ân 4:48), and it signifies the association of partners with Allâh. Blind submission to one’s own desires is also described as shirk (Qur’ân 25:43).
    [17] Dasuqî, F. A. Muhadarat fî al-‘Aqîdah al-Islâmiyyah, (Alexandria: Darul Da‘wah, 1983), p. 28.
    [18] The hanîf (singular of hunafa’) is one who naturally rejects polytheism and idolatry while inclined towards acceptance of tawhîd. In the Qur’ânic context, the hanîf refers particularly to those who followed the faith of Ibrâhîm as well as those who accepted tawhîd during the Jâhiliyyah period. After the advent of the Prophet Muhammad, may Allâh bless him and grant him peace, the term acquired a more circumscribed meaning – one who follows the dîn of Muhammad, may Allâh bless him and grant him peace. Dr. Dasuqî cites Zaid ibn ‘Amr ibn Nufayl and Qais ibn Sa‘ada as examples of hunafâ’ in pre-Islâmic times. A more well-known hanîf was Waraqa ibn Nawfal, the cousin of the Prophet’s wife, Khadîjah.
    [19] Don Cupitt, The Nature of Man, (London: Sheldon Press, 1979), pp. 33-34.

    Appendix: Ibn Taymiyyah's View on Fitrah
    According to Ibn Taymiyyah every child is born in a state of fitrah; in a state of innate goodness, and it is the social environment which cause the individual to deviate from this state. There is a natural correspondence between human nature and Islâm; man is suited for Dîn al-Islâm and responds spontaneously to its teachings. Dîn al-Islâm provides the ideal conditions for sustaining and developing man’s innate qualities.[1] Man’s nature has inherently within it more than simply knowledge of Allâh, but a love of Him and the will to pracitise the religion (dîn) sincerely as a true hanîf. This points to the element of the individual will, a pro-active drive which purposefully seeks to realise Islamic beliefs and practices. Ibn Taymiyyah responded to Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr’s notion of fitrah and argued that it is not merely a dormant potential which should be awakened from without, but rather the source of awakening itself, within the individual. The hanîf is not the one who reacts to sources of guidance, but one who is already guided and seeks to establish it consciously in practice.[2] The central hadîth refers to a change which may be affected by the social environment; Ibn Taymiyyah maintained that this change is one from a given state, a positive state of Islâm, to Judaism, Christianity, Magianism, etc. The social environment may be also guide the individual to îmân and good conduct so that the motivation in him to do good may be expressed, aided by external sources of guidance.[3] Ibn Taymiyyah was of the view that the human soul possesses an innate receptive capacity and a need for Islâmic guidance while Dîn al-Islâm is an adequate stimulus for this capacity and a sufficient fulfillment of this need.
    Moreover, if sources of external misguidance are absent, the fitrah of the individual will be actualised involuntarily and good will prevail.[4] In support of this view, Ibn Taymiyyah cited Abû Hurairah’s reference to the central Qur’ânic âyah (30:30) after the latter’s quoting the central hadîth.[5] In other words, whenever Abû Hurairah, may Allâh be pleased with him, reported the central hadîth, he used to recite after it the following Qur’ânic âyah:
    ‘Set your face to the dîn in sincerity (hanîfan: as a hanîf) which is Allâh’s fitrah (the nature made by Allâh) upon which He created mankind (fatara’n-nâs). There is no changing the creation of Allâh. That is the right dîn but most people know not.’ (Qur’ân 30:30)
    Abû Hurairah’s citation of this âyah after the hadîth apparently means that the fitrah of the hadîth refers to the fitrah of the Qur’ânic âyah, which is a good fitrah because the right dîn is being described as Allâh’s fitrah. The logic of this argument is that Abû Hurairah, may Allâh be pleased with him, meant that fitrah is associated with Islâm (al-Qurtubi, 1967). And according to Ibn Taymiyyah it is the social circumstances, as represented by the parents, which causes the child to be a Jew, a Christian or a Magian.
    Since the Prophet, may Allâh bless him and grant him peace, did not mention the parents changing the child from a state of fitrah to a state of Islâm, we must suppose that the child’s state at birth is in harmony with Islâm, in the widest sense of submission to Allâh (Ibn Taymiyyah, 1981). Another implication of this view of fitrah is that, while good constitutes the inner state of a person’s nature, evil is something that happens after the person is born. That is to say, deviation after birth is due to the corrupting influence of the social environment.
    Ibn Qayyim (d. 751 A.H.), a disciple of Ibn Taymiyyah, held similar views on the positive interpretation. He did not regard fitrah as mere knowledge of right and wrong at birth but as an active, inborn love and acknowledgement of Allâh which reaffirms His Lordship. He also explained that Qur’ân 16:78 (‘And Allâh brought you forth from the wombs of your mothers, knowing nothing…’) does not refer to innate knowledge of Allâh or Islâm, but rather to knowledge of the particulars of religion in general which is why the latter type of knowledge is absent at birth. Moreover, fitrah is not merely the capacity or readiness to receive Islâm, in which such a condition can be unfulfilled when parents choose Judaism or Christianity as the child’s religion; Ibn Qayyim argued that fitrah is truly an inborn predisposition to acknowledge Allâh, tawhîd and dîn al-Islâm.[6]
    Imâm an-Nawawî (d. 676 A.H. / 1277 C.E.), a Shâfi‘î faqîh who wrote one of the principal commentaries on Sahîh Muslim, defined fitrah as the unconfirmed state of îmân before the individual consciously affirms his belief. We have already alluded to this positive view of fitrah and the implications it has for children whose parents are polytheists.
    Al-Qurtubî (d. 671 A.H.) supported the positive view of fitrah by using the analogy of the physically unblemished animals in the central hadîth to illustrate that, just as animals are born intact, so are humans born with the flawless capacity to accept the truth; and, just as the animal may be injured or scarred, so can fitrah be corrupted or altered by external sources of misguidance.

    Notes and References
    [1] Ibn Taymiyya Dar‘u Ta‘arud al ‘Aql wa al Naql. Vol. 8, ed. Muhammad Rashad Sa’im. (Riyadh: Jami‘at al-Imam Muhammad ibn Sa‘ud al-Islamiyyah, 1981), Vol. VIII, p. 383 and pp. 444-448.
    [2] Ibid., p. 385.
    [3] Ibid., p. 385.
    [4] Ibid., pp. 463-364.
    [5] Ibid., p. 367. cf. also al-Qurtubî, Al-Jâmi‘u al-Ahkâm al-Qur’ân, p. 25.
    [6] al-Asqalânî, Fathul Barî, p. 198

  21. #96
    cali dude's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Question For The Non-muslims

    NoName55, are you answering my question here?

    I asked
    If people could be born with submission to God without having Islam in their lives, why do you think they couldn't stay that way without having Islam in their lives?
    So are we saying that even though a child is born with submission to God but s/he doesn't stay this way because s/he is introduced to an organized religion? But if a child is not introduced to an organized religion and there is nothing done to break his submission to God, why do you think it isn't possible for her/him to stay submitted to God?

    I personally think that you should no problem with people being introduced Judaism and Christianity as they were the religions before Islam on this side of the world. Therefore, they must have some kind of association with God and also apparently according to some of the people here they also believe that their prophets were also considered true prophets even in Islam.

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    Re: Question For The Non-muslims

    NoName55, are you answering my question here?
    Ahlan Brother
    yes!
    So are we saying that even though a child is born with submission to God but s/he doesn't stay this way because s/he is introduced to an organized religion? But if a child is not introduced to an organized religion and there is nothing done to break his submission to God, why do you think it isn't possible for her/him to stay submitted to God?

    I personally think that you should no problem with people being introduced Judaism and Christianity as they were the religions before Islam on this side of the world. Therefore, they must have some kind of association with God and also apparently according to some of the people here they also believe that their prophets were also considered true prophets even in Islam.
    I refer you to my previous reply, as one is neither able to be any more comprehensive than that nor is one intrested in a slanging match

    Ma'asalaama

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    Re: Question For The Non-muslims

    format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson View Post
    I agree. I have studied texts of many kinds, and cannot see anything to suggest that the Qur'an stands out to such an extent that it must be the work of a supernatural author. It seems to me to be obviously the work of human hands.
    I didn't know you could speak Arabic? Surely, as an English teacher, you of all people would recognise the fact that poetry cannot be translated and still retain its original charm?

    (Although the Quran is not strictly poetry, but close to it).
    Question For The Non-muslims

    wwwislamicboardcom - Question For The Non-muslims

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    Re: Question For The Non-muslims

    Greetings,
    format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah View Post
    I didn't know you could speak Arabic?
    I can't, and never claimed that I could.

    Surely, as an English teacher, you of all people would recognise the fact that poetry cannot be translated and still retain its original charm?
    Of course, and there's a lot more besides charm that is lost in translation when it comes to poetry. In fact, one definition of poetry is 'that which is lost in translation'.

    But I question your underlying assumption that it is only through Arabic that one can see the Qur'an as being the word of god. There are many Muslims who cannot read or speak Arabic, yet they still believe the Qur'an is the word of god.

    Also, it doesn't matter how good the poetry of the Qur'an is; I find its content abhorrent and irrational in several areas, and even knowing Arabic wouldn't change this.

    I find it almost impossible to understand how a human being could write as well as Shakespeare did, but I'm not about to claim that he must have been divinely inspired for that reason.

    Is it possible that the Qur'an is so highly regarded in Arab countries because of the apparent widespread ignorance of other cultures and literatures that obtains there? This article quotes some figures which I've seen questioned in some quarters, but if they are accurate, they would partly explain the belief in Arab countries that the Qur'an is so well written it must have been the work of god.

    That's the way I see it, at any rate, and this is another section of reasons why I'm not a Muslim.

    Peace

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    Re: Question For The Non-muslims

    format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson View Post
    Greetings,


    I can't, and never claimed that I could.



    Of course, and there's a lot more besides charm that is lost in translation when it comes to poetry. In fact, one definition of poetry is 'that which is lost in translation'.

    But I question your underlying assumption that it is only through Arabic that one can see the Qur'an as being the word of god. There are many Muslims who cannot read or speak Arabic, yet they still believe the Qur'an is the word of god.

    Also, it doesn't matter how good the poetry of the Qur'an is; I find its content abhorrent and irrational in several areas, and even knowing Arabic wouldn't change this.

    I find it almost impossible to understand how a human being could write as well as Shakespeare did, but I'm not about to claim that he must have been divinely inspired for that reason.

    Is it possible that the Qur'an is so highly regarded in Arab countries because of the apparent widespread ignorance of other cultures and literatures that obtains there? This article quotes some figures which I've seen questioned in some quarters, but if they are accurate, they would partly explain the belief in Arab countries that the Qur'an is so well written it must have been the work of god.

    That's the way I see it, at any rate, and this is another section of reasons why I'm not a Muslim.

    Peace


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