Christians and "heretics"

format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi

The Circumcisers (1st Century)

The Circumcision heresy may be summed up in the words of Acts 15:1: "But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren, ‘Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.’"

Many of the early Christians were Jews, who brought to the Christian faith many of their former practices. They recognized in Jesus the Messiah predicted by the prophets and the fulfillment of the Old Testament. Because circumcision had been required in the Old Testament for membership in God’s covenant, many thought it would also be required for membership in the New Covenant that Christ had come to inaugurate. They believed one must be circumcised and keep the Mosaic law to come to Christ. In other words, one had to become a Jew to become a Christian.
But God made it clear to Peter in Acts 10 that Gentiles are acceptable to God and may be baptized and become Christians without circumcision. The same teaching was vigorously defended by Paul in his epistles to the Romans and the Galatians—to areas where the Circumcision heresy had spread.

But didn't Jesus (alaihi salam) according to the New Testament instruct his disciples and followers to follow EVERYTHING the Pharisees and Jewish teachers of the law tell them, which necessarily includes circumcision? Paul definitely wrote many things which contradicted the Gospel of Jesus Christ (alaihi salam).

format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

yes the earliest being "(70-155/160)"

If I told you a story by the time it reaches the tenth person it will have already deranged and I am talking just one day or one week..... not "(70-155/160)." Let alone in a different tongue all together than that which Jesus (PBUH) spoke!

At this stage in the game we can agree to disagree! And, I can certainly respect that you'd appreciate the opinion of those who withhold your faith as you know it today rather than a very radical opposing opinion!

You refuse to accept the Bible as authentic. When some one provides Christian writings from the time immediately following the writing of the New Testament, you claim they are too late in dating to accurately reflect the beliefs of the original church. What that sounds like to me is you have made up your mind, no matter the facts.

Nonetheless, here are some writings from the first century and 2nd century writers who were disciples of the companions of Jesus:

excerpts from the Letter of Clement of Rome to the Corinthians:
Out of love the Lord took us to himself; because he loved us and it was God's will, our Lord Jesus Christ gave his life's blood for us -- he gave his body for our body, his soul for our soul.

Let the one truly possessed by the love of Christ keep his commandments. Who can express the binding power of divine love?

Let us fix our attention on the blood of Christ and recognize how precious it is to God his Father, since it was shed for our salvation and brought the grace of repentance to all the world.

Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the ministers of God's grace have spoken of repentance;

excerpts from the Letter of Barnabbas (not to be confused with the 14th century document supposedly known as the Gospel of Barnabbas)

Barnabas 2:5
What to Me is the multitude of your sacrifices, saith the Lord I am
full of whole burnt-offerings, and the fat of lambs and the blood
of bulls and of goats desire not, not though ye should come to be
seen of Me. or who required these things at your hands? Ye shall
continue no more to tread My court. If ye bring fine flour, it is
in vain; incense is an abomination to Me; your new moons and your
Sabbaths I cannot away with.

Barnabas 2:6
These things therefore He annulled, that the new law of our Lord
Jesus Christ, being free from the yoke of constraint, might have its
oblation not made by human hands.

Barnabas 5:1
For to this end the Lord endured to deliver His flesh unto
corruption, that by the remission of sins we might be cleansed, which
cleansing is through the blood of His sprinkling.

Barnabas 5:5
There is yet this also, my brethren; if the Lord endured to suffer
for our souls, though He was Lord of the whole world, unto whom God
said from the foundation of the world, Let us make man after our
image and likeness, how then did He endure to suffer at the hand
of men?

Barnabas 5:6
Understand ye. The prophets, receiving grace from Him, prophesied
concerning Him. But He Himself endured that He might destroy death
and show forth the resurrection of the dead, for that He must needs
be manifested in the flesh;

Barnabas 5:7
that at the same time He might redeem the promise made to the
fathers, and by preparing the new people for Himself might show,
while He was on earth, that having brought about the resurrection He
will Himself exercise judgment.

Barnabas 5:9
And when He chose His own apostles who were to proclaim His Gospel,
who that He might show that He came not to call the righteous but
sinners were sinners above every sin, then He manifested Himself
to be the Son of God.

Barnabas 5:10
For if He had not come in the flesh neither would men have looked
upon Him and been saved, forasmuch as when they look upon the sun
that shall cease to be, which is the work of His own hands, they
cannot face its rays.

Barnabas 5:11
Therefore the Son of God came in the flesh to this end, that He might
sum up the complete tale of their sins against those who persecuted
and slew His prophets.

Barnabas 6:12
For the scripture saith concerning us, how He saith to the Son; Let
us make man after our image and after our likeness, and let them
rule over the beasts of the earth and the fowls of the heaven and
the fishes of the sea. And the Lord said when He saw the fair
creation of us men; Increase and multiply and fill the earth.
These words refer to the Son.

Barnabas 12:10
Behold again it is Jesus, not a son of man, but the Son of God, and
He was revealed in the flesh in a figure. Since then men will say
that Christ is the son of David, David himself prophesieth being
afraid and understanding the error of sinners; The Lord said unto
my Lord, Sit thou on My right hand until I set thine enemies for a
footstool under Thy feet.

Barnabas 12:11
And again thus sayith Isaiah; The Lord said unto my Christ the
Lord, of whose right hand I laid hold, that the nations should give
ear before Him, and I will break down the strength of kings. See
how David calleth Him Lord, and calleth Him not Son.

Barnabas 15:8
Finally He saith to them; Your new moons and your Sabbaths I cannot
away with. Ye see what is His meaning ; it is not your present
Sabbaths that are acceptable [unto Me], but the Sabbath which I have
made, in the which, when I have set all things at rest, I will make
the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another
world.

Barnabas 15:9
Wherefore also we keep the eighth day for rejoicing, in the which
also Jesus rose from the dead, and having been manifested ascended
into the heavens.

excerpts from the Didache

Now about food: bear what you are able to bear. But watch out for the idol-sacrifices, for this is a religious service of dead gods.

Now about baptism, baptize this way: after first uttering all of these things, baptize "into the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy Spirit" in running water. But if you do not have running water, baptize in other water. Now if you are not able to do so in cold water, do it in warm water. Now if you don't have either, pour water three times on the head, "into the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the holy Spirit." Now before the ritual cleansing, the baptizer and the one being baptized should fast, and any others who are able. Now you will give word for the one who is being baptized to fast for one or two days beforehand.

Now according to the Lord's day, gather together and break bread and give thanks, after acknowledging your wanderings to one another, so your sacrifice would be a clean one.

excertps from the Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians

Polycarp 1:2
and that the steadfast root of your faith which was famed from
primitive times abideth until now and beareth fruit unto our Lord
Jesus Christ, who endured to face even death for our sins, whom God
raised, having loosed the pangs of Hades;

Polycarp 3:2
For neither am I, nor is any other like unto me, able to follow the
wisdom of the blessed and glorious Paul, who when he came among you
taught face to face with the men of that day the word which
concerneth truth carefully and surely; who also, when he was absent,
wrote a letter unto you, into the which if ye look diligently, ye
shall be able to be builded up unto the faith given to you,

Polycarp 6:2
If then we entreat the Lord that He would forgive us, we also ought
to forgive: for we are before the eyes of our Lord and God, and we
must all stand at the judgment-seat of Christ, and each man must
give an account of himself.

Polycarp 7:1
For every one who shall not confess that Jesus Christ is come in
the flesh, is antichrist: and whosoever shall not confess the
testimony of the Cross, is of the devil; and whosoever shall pervert
the oracles of the Lord to his own lusts and say that there is
neither resurrection nor judgment, that man is the firstborn of
Satan.

Polycarp 8:1
Let us therefore without ceasing hold fast by our hope and by the
earnest of our righteousness, which is Jesus Christ who took up our
sins in His own body upon the tree, who did no sin, neither was
guile found in His mouth, but for our sakes He endured all things,
that we might live in Him.

Polycarp 12:2
Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal
High-priest Himself the [Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in
faith and truth, and in all gentleness and in all avoidance of wrath
and in forbearance and long suffering and in patient endurance and in
purity; and may He grant unto you a lot and portion among His saints,
and to us with you, and to all that are under heaven, who shall
believe on our Lord and God Jesus Christ and on His Father that
raised him from the dead.

excerpts from St. Ignatius of Antioch to Polycarp

3:2 Be thou more diligent than thou art. Mark the
seasons. Await Him that is above every season, the
Eternal, the Invisible, who became visible for our
sake, the Impalpable, the Impassible, who suffered for
our sake, who endured in all ways for our sake.

8:3 I bid you farewell always in our God Jesus
Christ, in whom abide ye in the unity and supervision
of God. I salute Alce, a name very dear to me. Fare ye
well in the Lord.

What I note is that we have the themes of Jesus' identification not only with God but as being co-eternal with God, indeed as being God reaffirmed over and over again. And yet we also see it affirmed that he came in the flesh, died a sacrficial death by which he gained atonement or forgiveness of the sins of those who belong to him, that the Father raised him from the dead, and that Jesus will ultimately serve as a divine judge of the the righteous and unrighteous.

I also noted the Polycarp spoke very highly of Paul, even though he was a disciple not of Paul but of John.

We also see use of the Trinitarian forumlaic expression of "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" used as part of the instructions for how to perform Christian baptism in the Didache, something written and used by the church even before the Gospels. It predates even most of Paul's letters, so one cannot say that Paul invented it.

Note also that the Didache speaks of the gathering to break bread and give thanks (in other words the Eucharist) on the Lord's day, a reference to the Resurrection, which would mean that worship on Sunday was very early in the life of the church.

The evidence is overwhelming, from the Christian scriptures, from other Christian writings of the first generation of the church, from the church fathers over the next 200 years before Nicea, a belief in Jesus as God, and of the Holy Spirit as divine has been a part of the Christian faith from the beginning. No one labelled it Trinity until 325, but the beliefs that they labelled as such were present all along.

format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777

But didn't Jesus (alaihi salam) according to the New Testament instruct his disciples and followers to follow EVERYTHING the Pharisees and Jewish teachers of the law tell them, which necessarily includes circumcision? Paul definitely wrote many things which contradicted the Gospel of Jesus Christ (alaihi salam).

Greetings Talha



I am sure you are familiar with the story of Muhammad's (pbuh) pilgrimage to Mecca in 628. His followers recalling Muhammad's words "Truly did Allah fulfill the vision for His Messenger. Ye shall enter the Sacred Mosque, IF ALLAH WILLS, with minds secure, heads shaved, hair cut short, and without fear. For He knew what ye knew not, and He granted, besides this, a speedy victory." had anticipated that they would would have access to Mecca that very same year. When that did not occur, Muhammad answered saying, "Yes, did I tell you that we would go to Ka'ba this year?" Answer: No, he did not. They were in Mecca the next year.

Similarly, one has to be careful not to take Jesus' statement and apply it where it does not apply.

Jesus is speaking: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Mattew 5:17)

Now what was he going to fulfill? We get that answered by Jesus himself after the resurrection:

Luke 24
44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48And ye are witnesses of these things.

So, Jesus did indeed fulfill the Law. It did not pass away, it was completed. One attends school until one completes the course before you. Once completed, one does not say that the school passed away, rather it is completed. One no longer serves the school, but the school in essence serves you as you take what you gained there and apply it to life.

Jesus having completed that course that was set for him in his life, now moves to apply it to the lives of others.

Jesus is speaking to his disciples. Might it apply for all people as a universal principle, or does it apply to just a few? The Law that God gave to Moses has yet to pass away. The Jews (and Jesus' first disciples were all Jews) still live by the Law. This is the Old Covenant that God made with them. But in Christ we have a New Covenant. This New Covenant provides a way for non-Jews to gain access to the Father and that is through Jesus Christ.

Just as God made covenant with Abraham and then asked for Abraham's son, so God the Father has his own son become the sacrifical lamb whose blood redeems us. Why does God seek blood atonement? It is a gastly, gruesome thing. I truly don't know. But I do know that from the beginning, with Cain and Abel even, God preferred the blood sacrifice offered by Abel. I can see why an athiest might be repulsed by all of this, but I cannot understand why it would offend either a Jew or a Muslim as it is part of the history of both.

And so, God now makes covenant with all people through this sacrifice, that all who would look to Jesus and believe (and again, I define that as trust, not just believing concepts about Jesus, but really trusting in what he has done for them) can have new life free from sin in Jesus' name. And those who are not Jews do not have to become Jews to be partakers of this expanded promise of God's grace. This grace is available for Jew and non-Jew alike. Or Jews, if they prefer, can continue to live a life of keeping 613 laws of God, and I trust that God will honor their efforts, but it will be Christ's sacrifice that actually enables them (any of us) to get to heaven as well.