From what I understand the hate between Jews and Muslims are very odd. Jews were not gased by any Muslims, yet by Hitler who professed Christian beliefs (although in no way to I even compare Christianity to him), and Muslims and Jews always worked together when facing the common enemy of Crusaders and Christian invaders. Zionism may very well have destroyed that relationship. The reason theologically I support the state of Israel today is that although the state should never have beeen created because even a Jewish majority in the state of Israel is pushing it, I must support it according to Torah law.
As long as I am under the impression that if the land of Israel is put under Arab control thousands of Jews will die, I cannot support a return to complete exile, because the Torah teaches a Jewish life can only not break the law to survive in the case of murder, idolatry and rape.
So if Israel dismantles tommorow, am I right to believe that "vigilante" justice would occur, and many Jews who were born in Israel and did not take any land would be killed?
Am I correct to believe Jews would be killed in riots?
I realize that Zionism has made the Arab people bloodthristy against the Jewish people, and although this is G-d's will, he also gives people free choice. Do you believe Jews would be safe under Palestinain control in the Holy Land?
That is the main reason I support Israel, because I have to to support the saving of Jewish life.
Studying Torah outweighs interfaith dialogue, so I will not be on except once and a while to answer Questions in the Judaism Q/A thread: HERE.
The fear of the L-rd is a spring of life, to turn away from the snares of death. (Mishlei 14:27)
do you have any novel ideas? obviously if both sides continue to use violence for a solution it will go on forever. it hasn't worked yet and it never will. it has been going on for so long that i don't think the mutual hatred and fear will ever go away.
the mideast is one of those situations that look hopeless to me.
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
Although some scholars believed that G-d has set aside a specific date for the coming of the moshiach, most authority suggests that the conduct of mankind will determine the time of the moshiach's coming. In general, it is believed that the moshiach will come in a time when he is most needed (because the world is so sinful), or in a time when he is most deserved (because the world is so good). For example, each of the following has been suggested as the time when the moshiach will come:
if Israel repented a single day;
if Israel observed a single Shabbat properly;
if Israel observed two Shabbats in a row properly;
in a generation that is totally innocent or totally guilty;
in a generation that loses hope;
in a generation where children are totally disrespectful towards their parents and elders;
What Will the Moshiach Do?
Before the time of the moshiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16) The moshiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).
The world after the messiah comes is often referred to in Jewish literature as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come. This term can cause some confusion, because it is also used to refer to a spiritual afterlife. In English, we commonly use the term "messianic age" to refer specifically to the time of the messiah.
Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people. (Isaiah 2:4) Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity.
All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.
In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings.
-Judaism 101: Moshiach
Studying Torah outweighs interfaith dialogue, so I will not be on except once and a while to answer Questions in the Judaism Q/A thread: HERE.
The fear of the L-rd is a spring of life, to turn away from the snares of death. (Mishlei 14:27)
So if Israel dismantles tommorow, am I right to believe that "vigilante" justice would occur, and many Jews who were born in Israel and did not take any land would be killed?
I want to comment on this part of your post. The children who were born on the land they are fighting for, are they not being killed? Facin oppression since the day they were born. Some not even seeing the light of day. Its really a no win situation if u think about it. Just a thought, not trying to be offensive...
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
I want to comment on this part of your post. The children who were born on the land they are fighting for, are they not being killed? Facin oppression since the day they were born. Some not even seeing the light of day. Its really a no win situation if u think about it. Just a thought, not trying to be offensive...
Interesting position. My point however, is that in 30 years about all Israeli's will be native born in the land, and will have no connection to any of the creation of Israel.
Palestinians that wish for the right of return, they have not been born on this land although they believe to to be theres. Many are taught hate and will they take "revenge" out on the children of who the hate? I seem to think the answer would be yes.
Studying Torah outweighs interfaith dialogue, so I will not be on except once and a while to answer Questions in the Judaism Q/A thread: HERE.
The fear of the L-rd is a spring of life, to turn away from the snares of death. (Mishlei 14:27)
rabbi,
i understand what moshiach is supposed to do. are you saying that human beings can do nothing but continue to kill and maim each other until moshiach comes? of course, no one knows when that will be.
in a sense, you are agreeing with me that it is a hopeless situation and will just go on and on and on indefinitely because it is beyond human solutions.
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
rabbi,
i understand what moshiach is supposed to do. are you saying that human beings can do nothing but continue to kill and maim each other until moshiach comes? of course, no one knows when that will be.
in a sense, you are agreeing with me that it is a hopeless situation and will just go on and on and on indefinitely because it is beyond human solutions.
Nothing is hopeless when G-d is in control. It is a matter of what am I suppose to learn. How will this make me a better person overall. How can I create a hopeless situation into a one filled with hope.
Tikun Olam or "repairing the world". It is a great concept.
What I pointed out is that many sources say the Moshiach will come when we all have the feeling of hopelessness for this world and humanity that you express.
Studying Torah outweighs interfaith dialogue, so I will not be on except once and a while to answer Questions in the Judaism Q/A thread: HERE.
The fear of the L-rd is a spring of life, to turn away from the snares of death. (Mishlei 14:27)
If israel is to be given back to the muslims and made into an islamic state then under islamic law Shariah the jews have the right to live in the land if they agree to pay jizyaa which means they have the right to live under islamic rule worship and all with out being haramed and being protected.
But as soo many years have passed and soo much has been done to the Muslims and palastines in particluar there might be hatred but in islam this isnt allowed when the Prophet Muhamad (S.a.w.) went to open makkah or take control of it no one was killed or hurt. They all had saftey even though they were at war with the prophet for so many yrs.
If the laws of islam say something then they must be implemented in the land we are people of hear and obey.
But as soo many years have passed and soo much has been done to the Muslims and palastines in particluar there might be hatred
Well many Jews also would have a tough time with this peace. Understand that 1 out of every 4 people who have died in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have been Jews. It is not as unproportional as you think it is.
But back to the point. I know what Islamic law says, but I have doubts the Palestinians would follow Islamic law. After all Islamic law condemnes suicide, alchohol, and not wearing a hijab. Have you ever been to some of these West Bank and Gaza areas. They are as secular as they come putting there own nationalism before there religion, exactly like the Zionists.
Studying Torah outweighs interfaith dialogue, so I will not be on except once and a while to answer Questions in the Judaism Q/A thread: HERE.
The fear of the L-rd is a spring of life, to turn away from the snares of death. (Mishlei 14:27)
Nothing is hopeless when G-d is in control. It is a matter of what am I suppose to learn. How will this make me a better person overall. How can I create a hopeless situation into a one filled with hope.
Tikun Olam or "repairing the world". It is a great concept.
What I pointed out is that many sources say the Moshiach will come when we all have the feeling of hopelessness for this world and humanity that you express.
ur messiah will come (though ur true missah did come Jesus a.s) the prophet Muhamad s.a.w. has spoken about him in great detail and he will be one of the major signs that the day of judgment is very soon may allah protect us from the trials of that time ameen
Well many Jews also would have a tough time with this peace. Understand that 1 out of every 4 people who have died in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have been Jews. It is not as unproportional as you think it is.
But back to the point. I know what Islamic law says, but I have doubts the Palestinians would follow Islamic law. After all Islamic law condemnes suicide.
Palestinians will have to live under islamic law their, in islam there is no different country all muslim countries will have 1 ruller over them and eveyrone must follow the law no one is above Gods law. as i said if they agree they will be protected and the muslims must agree to this
ur messiah will come (though ur true missah did come Jesus a.s) the prophet Muhamad s.a.w. has spoken about him in great detail and he will be one of the major signs that the day of judgment is very soon may allah protect us from the trials of that time ameen
Well my belief is that the Moshiach will fufill the requirements G-d has for him, and will not need two tries to accomplish G-d's will here on earth. But I completly respect yours, since belief in the Moshiach is not a requirement for gentiles.
Studying Torah outweighs interfaith dialogue, so I will not be on except once and a while to answer Questions in the Judaism Q/A thread: HERE.
The fear of the L-rd is a spring of life, to turn away from the snares of death. (Mishlei 14:27)
Nope, never said that. If i support the state of Israel dismantling and a Jew dies because of it, it could be said that it is my fault. It is more responsibilty for your fellow Jews actions then the worth of blood.
I'm afraid that is the exactly the message I received, and am still receiving. It is more important to you to save the life of one Jewish person that it is to put a stop to the suffering and death of hundreds of Palestinians.
I'm afraid that is the exactly the message I received, and am still receiving. It is more important to you to save the life of one Jewish person that it is to put a stop to the suffering and death of hundreds of Palestinians.
I believe it has nothing to do with the Palestinians at all. It is a matter of how his actions affect other Jews. Judaism believes very much that causing non-Jews suffering can lead to just as much punishment from God. (I will try to find the source where I read it) However, what he is refering to is the what laws overide opposition to Zionism. He speaking completly in a Torah based mode. He is not judging Jew over Palestinian, but merely stating what the Jewish law or Halacha has to say on the matter.
What he is talking about has nothing to do with Palestinian suffering. It is based on what Jewish law says on the matter. It is clear that if Jews are going to die then opposition to Zionism is a bad idea. It doesn't mean Palestinians mean nothing but instead the Jewish law focuses only Jews, since the laws deal with how Jews must treat other Jews and what Jews must do, not non-Jews. It is not that Jewish law and Judaism says that the Palestinian suffering does not matter, but instead it just doesn't mention it, in the Torah and he is specifically discussing the Torah. At least that is what I got from it, and from studying Judaism and Christianity in college.
You will find that in Islam as well, Muslims lives are favored over the unbelievers.
Last edited by ManchesterFolk; 03-10-2007 at 01:46 AM.
i would love if the state of israel didn't exist, but also though we have to look at reality.. handing israel over to the arabs would be absolutely devestating for jews.. thousands upon millions would die. it would be TERRIBLE.
therefore i don't think israel should cease to exist.. it wouldn't be probable. the jews woudn't live in peace with the muslims.
the interesting thing too though, is that the palestine/israel conflict doesn't seem to be about land anymore.. because honestly, who cares about land the size of new jersey.. my goodness! it's not about land.. because there is plenty of land is western iraq, in syria, and in jordan.
it's about hate. the palestinians hate the israelis. in return the israelis hate the palestinians.
handing israel over to the palestinians wouldn't only be devestating for the jews, but for the arabs as well. you should see how much the israelis harass the palestinians.. just look on youtube. in hebron, there are 200,000 muslims, 800 jewish settlers. yet the MUSLIMS are the ones being harassed. in fact, near the settlement arab homes are caged off. and israeli women will chant hateful comments at the palestinians, and hit them and such. and the children will stone the other children. it's disgustingly horrible.
considering that israel is booming in population, expected to have 10 million jews by 2050, i just don't find it probable to hand it over to the arabs.. unless you want utter genocide.
after WW2, they should have moved the jews to nebraska.. not israel!
Interesting position. My point however, is that in 30 years about all Israeli's will be native born in the land, and will have no connection to any of the creation of Israel.
Palestinians that wish for the right of return, they have not been born on this land although they believe to to be theres. Many are taught hate and will they take "revenge" out on the children of who the hate? I seem to think the answer would be yes.
Five million Jews came into Palestine and took over, so what would be wrong with five million Palestinians moving into Israel and taking over in thirty years time.
This really backs up that unjust law that possession is nine tenths of the law when it comes to ownership. You only have to be tougher than your opponent and keep hold of what you have taken.
Justice has to be fair to all people, and have the Jews been fair to the Palestinians?
if there is no state of Israel, then are Jews safer? It is tough to think that statement is true.
The answer depends on whether the Jews were safe before the state of Israel came into existence in 1948. You know full well that we Muslims have nothing to do with extremists like Hitler. If Jews were wiped off during the Holocaust, he and his kind will definitely come looking for us Muslims.
Now back to the question, do Jews feel safer with the present State of Israel around?
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