A Question Relating to the Bible being changed

**don532** · 03-16-2007

Greetings. I know I am showing my lack of knowledge on this subject, but I really would like to know the Muslim perspective on a couple of questions I have had for a long time.

Mohammad and the Koran came to us around 622AD. This is almost 300 years after the council at Nicea.

If I am not mistaken, the Koran instructs Muslims to read the books of God and calls them the word of God, light and guidance, and illumination.

I think I am correct in assuming Muslims believe the scriptures were corrupted before the council of Nicea.

1. Why would the revelation given to Mohammad instruct Muslims to pay any attention to these texts, and even refer to them so highly, if they have been corrupted for hundreds of years at the time the Koran was written?

2. If the Koran instructs Muslims to read the books of God, why is the Bible illegal in some Muslim countries?

Thank you.

**Woodrow** · 03-18-2007

Originally Posted by NoName55

no comment, just a note to self for posterity.

"If the Qur'an is from God then all three should agree"

Just a note to not take things out ot context. The message being given is that if the Bible and the torah do not agree with the Qur'an they have been changed.

we know the Qur'an is the Qur'an is the true word of God(swt), but non-Muslims do not know that. Until a non-Muslim comes to the understanding that the Qur'an is the true word they can not understand why we believe the Bible and the Torah have been Changed.

**don532** · 03-18-2007

Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

The Verse there is speaking with regards to the Christians and Jews and Sabians who were good at their time, right now it is impossible for a Christian or a Jew or a Sabian to hear about Muhammad properly, understand his message then turn it down and then still go paradise.

For the Jews of Moses' time, peace be upon him, they are included in that verse, the Christians of Jesus' time, peace be upon him, are included in that verse, but now, in our time, another Messenger has been sent, and it is upto us to follow this Messenger, and those who have the opportunity and know about him, but they don't follow him, then they are not included in the verse.

And Allah knows best.

Thank you for clarifying. My curiosity gets the best of me and I must ask another question even though I thought I was done for today. From where do you get that understanding? I do not find such context in the surrounding verses. Is this one of those verses that is further explained by another verse in the Qur'an?

**Woodrow** · 03-18-2007

Originally Posted by don532

Thank you for clarifying. My curiosity gets the best of me and I must ask another question even though I thought I was done for today. From where do you get that understanding? I do not find such context in the surrounding verses. Is this one of those verses that is further explained by another verse in the Qur'an?

Don, one of the most difficult hings in trying to understand the Qur'an is to realizwe that you are using a translation. There are reasons why we do not consider translations to be the Qur'an. However, if you use several translations together you can get an approximation of the Arabic meanings.

I notce you mentioned Pickthall so I am assuming you are using his translation.

Here are a few ayyats from Surah 5 which may help clarify your question above.

Since you are using Pickthall I am going to use Yusuf Ali here, compare it with Pickthall and between both you should get a better feeling as to what is meant.

5:72. They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. S P C

5:73. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. S P
5:74. Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. S P
5:75. Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! S P C

5:76. Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things." S P
5:77. Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way. S P C

5:78. Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses. S P C
5:79. Nor did they (usually) forbid one another the iniquities which they committed: evil indeed were the deeds which they did. S P C

5:80. Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers. Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with the result), that Allah's wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide. S P
5:81. If only they had believed in Allah, in the Prophet, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers. S P

5:82. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. S P C
5:83. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses. S P

5:84. "What cause can we have not to believe in Allah and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?" S P

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

**NoName55** · 03-18-2007

Originally Posted by don532

Thank you for clarifying. My curiosity gets the best of me and I must ask another question even though I thought I was done for today. From where do you get that understanding? I do not find such context in the surrounding verses. Is this one of those verses that is further explained by another verse in the Qur'an?

greetings,

if Not in surrounding verses then elswhere spread throughout.

a little something on understanding:> http://www.islamicboard.com/667647-post4.html

Tafsir (Explanation):> http://www.qtafsir.com/

here is a kinda content list:> http://www.islamicboard.com/680790-post36.html

A gatway to huge lists of links to works of formerly Christian Brothers:> http://www.islamicboard.com/userpage-user10595.html

http://abdurrahman.org/qurantafseer/tafsirkathir.chm

**don532** · 03-18-2007

Thank you. I see now. I mentioned the Pickthall because it was quoted to me in a response. The Qur'an I am reading says on the spine it is a translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali.

Thank you so much for answering my question. I think I understand now. I'm sure I will have more questions. Please forgive me in advance if I wear out anyone's patience.

I will now go look at the link's NoName took the time to provide.

Thank you once again.

**don532** · 03-18-2007

NoName the glossary is phenomenal. Thank you!

He gave His only unique son....is that the correct translation?

**NoName55** · 03-19-2007

Originally Posted by don532

NoName the glossary is phenomenal. Thank you!

He gave His only unique son....is that the correct translation?

You are most welcome, Brother of mine (in Adam)

Son should be Servant (remember the explanation in article by Br. Estes)

**Hemoo** · 03-19-2007

i found a hadith that shows that jews used to change their books and to judge against what came in torah

the hadith is in authintic Hadith book of "SAHIH MUSLIM" in chapter "Punishments Prescribed By Islam"

here it is

Al-Bara' b. 'Azib reported: There happened to pass by Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) a Jew blackened and lashed. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) called them (the Jews) and said: Is this the punishment that you find in your Book (Torah) as a prescribed punishment for adultery? They said: Yes. He (the Holy Prophet) called one of the scholars amongst them and said: I ask you in the name of Allah Who sent down the Torah on Moses if that is the prescribed punishment for adultery that you find in your Book. He said: No. Had you not asked me in the name of Allah, I would not have given you this information. We find stoning to death (as punishment prescribed in the Torah). But this (crime) became quite common amongst our aristocratic class. So when we caught hold of any rich person (indulging in this offence) we spared him, but when we caught hold of a helpless person we imposed the prescribed punishment upon him. We then said: Let us agree (on a punishment) which we can inflict both upon the rich and the poor. So We decided to blacken the face with coal and flog as a substitute punishment for stoning. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: O Allah, I am the first to revive Thy command when they had made it dead. He then commanded and he (the offender) was stoned to death. Allah, the Majestic and Glorious, sent down (this verse): "O Messenger, (the behaviour of) those who vie with one another in denying the truth should not grieve you..." up to "is vouchsafed unto you, accept it" (v. 41)2176 It was said (by the Jews): Go to Muhammad; it he commands you to blacken the face and award flogging (as punishment for adultery), then accept it, but it he gives verdict for stoning, then avoid it. It was (then) that Allah, the Majestic and Great, sent down (these verses): "And they who do not judge in accordance with what Allah has revealed are, indeed, deniers of the truth" (v. 44); "And they who do not judge in accordance with what Allah has revealed-they, they indeed are the wrongdoers" (v. 45); "And they who do not judge in accordance with what God has revealed-they are the iniquitous (v. 47). (All these verses) were revealed in connection with the non-believers.

so this is an example of the alteration that jews used to do in their books

i hope this informations are usefull

salam

**don532** · 03-19-2007

I am making progress. The tools shared with me here are making looking for truth and answers to my questions much easier.
Having been a Christian most of my life, I have been taught reasoning why Islam cannot be true. Most of that reasoning concludes some of the characteristics of Islam are ridiculous and cannot be true. I'm sure that for those that come from a Muslim background, some of the characteristics of Christianity seem ridiculous and cannot be true.
I cannot speak for those of a Muslim background that have seriously read the Bible, but for me of a Christian background, after having spent time in the Qur'an, I have learned Islam is not ridiculous. It cannot be dismissed out of hand, with just a couple of quick statements. Though not a convert, this certainly has taught me a great level of respect for Islam and its followers.

In my reading, I see reference to a published list of 101 contradictions in the Bible, and a list of 101 Christian refutations. I am now going to find this information and start reading again.
If I have questions on other subjects (I am sure I will), I will ask in a thread properly titled. There are many concepts in the Qur'an that are unfamiliar to me. Those will surely pique my curiosity.
Thank you all who have shared with me. I appreciate your patience.

**queenmuslimah** · 03-19-2007

mashallah may allah guide u to the right path inshallah......remember we are all behind u 100%......

**NoName55** · 03-19-2007

@don532 are you talking about these at -www.kronosofia.dk/frames/side/biblioteket/101.html
or something else?

**don532** · 03-19-2007

Originally Posted by NoName55

@don532 are you talking about these at -www.kronosofia.dk/frames/side/biblioteket/101.html
or something else?

I am not sure. I was reading in another post about the 101 contradictions. Is there more than one such list of contradictions?

**Umar001** · 03-19-2007

How will you benefit from those threads, am just curious?

**don532** · 03-19-2007

Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

How will you benefit from those threads, am just curious?

I have been raised a Christian all my life. If there are contradictions in what I have believed, I want to know what they are.

**Umar001** · 03-19-2007

Originally Posted by don532

I have been raised a Christian all my life. If there are contradictions in what I have believed, I want to know what they are.

Well, if you'd like I can talk to you about it, and then you look into it yourself. I've been through it, so maybe that'd help.

But that'd be in another thread.

**Grace Seeker** · 03-20-2007

Originally Posted by Woodrow

Just a note to not take things out ot context. The message being given is that if the Bible and the torah do not agree with the Qur'an they have been changed.

There is another point of view. That one is that if the Bible and the Torah (that bit is redundant as the whole of the written Torah is one portion of the Bible, though I guess that Jews do speak of the Oral Torah) do not agree with the Qu'ran then the Qu'ran has been fabricated. Which one of those two views ohe holds is determined by faith. Indeed, an atheist might hold that first the Bible was fabricated and then the Qu'ran was a subsequent fabrication influenced in part by the Bible. That opinion would also be based on one's particular faith perspective. All supposed "proofs" that I have ever seen articulated are rooted in the subjective faith (or lack thereof) of the one presenting them.

we know the Qur'an is the Qur'an is the true word of God(swt), but non-Muslims do not know that. Until a non-Muslim comes to the understanding that the Qur'an is the true word they can not understand why we believe the Bible and the Torah have been Changed.

Again, what you "know" is a subjective expression of faith. For I also "know" that the Bible is a trustworthy revelation of God's self to humanity, and contains all that is necessary for knowledge of salvation and living a faithful life. Asl long as a Muslim is of the understanding that the Qu'ran is the true word, they cannot understand the truth which is revealed in the Bible for they are blinded to it.

I expect you to disgree with my statement, but I hope you recognize that except for our personal prefrence for the authority of one faith over the other, that both statements would have equal credence to someone not already party to either of our faiths.

**Woodrow** · 03-20-2007

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

There is another point of view. That one is that if the Bible and the Torah (that bit is redundant as the whole of the written Torah is one portion of the Bible, though I guess that Jews do speak of the Oral Torah) do not agree with the Qu'ran then the Qu'ran has been fabricated. Which one of those two views ohe holds is determined by faith. Indeed, an atheist might hold that first the Bible was fabricated and then the Qu'ran was a subsequent fabrication influenced in part by the Bible. That opinion would also be based on one's particular faith perspective. All supposed "proofs" that I have ever seen articulated are rooted in the subjective faith (or lack thereof) of the one presenting them.

Again, what you "know" is a subjective expression of faith. For I also "know" that the Bible is a trustworthy revelation of God's self to humanity, and contains all that is necessary for knowledge of salvation and living a faithful life. Asl long as a Muslim is of the understanding that the Qu'ran is the true word, they cannot understand the truth which is revealed in the Bible for they are blinded to it.

I expect you to disgree with my statement, but I hope you recognize that except for our personal prefrence for the authority of one faith over the other, that both statements would have equal credence to someone not already party to either of our faiths.

No reason to disagree over the point that we disagree.

It is really quite simple You are certain you are correct, I am certain I am correct and the guy hiding behind the curtain is certain both of us are mistaken.

**MustafaMc** · 03-24-2007

Originally Posted by don532

If I am not mistaken, the Koran instructs Muslims to read the books of God and calls them the word of God, light and guidance, and illumination.

Don, you are in fact mistaken on every point of this sentence. I have read the Quran more than once and I have never read such an ayat (verse).

Originally Posted by don532

I think I am correct in assuming Muslims believe the scriptures were corrupted before the council of Nicea.

Yes, we believe that neither the Old nor the New Testament are the authentic message revealed to Prophet Moses, David, or Jesus (peace upon them).

Originally Posted by don532

1. Why would the revelation given to Mohammad instruct Muslims to pay any attention to these texts, and even refer to them so highly, if they have been corrupted for hundreds of years at the time the Koran was written?

The Quran does not speak highly of the Bible, rather it speaks highly of the Prophets and the original messages they brought. The Quran sternly warns those who attribute words to Allah that are in fact their own.

Originally Posted by don532

2. If the Koran instructs Muslims to read the books of God, why is the Bible illegal in some Muslim countries?

I am not aware of the Bible being forbidden in a Muslim country. This is quite different however from forbidding the active dispersal of heresy (Christian evangelism) and the widespread dispersal of free Bibles (Gideons) in a Muslim country.

**don532** · 03-24-2007

Greetings. I realize now I had much of this concept wrong. Here is some of what I was referring to.

5:44 It was We who revealed the Law (to Musa): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the Prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's Will, by the Rabbis and the Doctors of Law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's Book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My Signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

2:285 The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His Books, and His Messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His Messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey, (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

3:84 Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Ibrahim, Isma'il, Ishaq, Ya'qub, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Musa, 'Isa, and the Prophets, from their Lord: we make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

4:136 O ye who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

I suppose one could believe in the true books as revealed before any corruption, and that would have nothing to do with reading the Torah, Psalms and Injeel that exist today.

My comment about Bibles not being allowed in some Muslim countries is based on my, and others travel experience with customs. We have been told going into certain areas, Saudi Arabia being one, not to bring a bible. I have tried to find the customs rules that were quoted at the time, but I cannot.

Thank you for your insight. Peace.

**MustafaMc** · 03-24-2007

Originally Posted by don532

I have been raised a Christian all my life. If there are contradictions in what I have believed, I want to know what they are.

Don, Ahmed Deedat has books and videos that point out errors and contradictions in the Bible much better than I can. For example this link may be helpful. http://www.ahmed-deedat.co.za/frameset.asp

Can anyone explain Hebrews 7:1-3? "This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High (Allah, by my interpretation). He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kiings and blessed him, and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also "king of Salem" means "king of peace." Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever." According to my limited knowledge the only ones to have no mother or father are Adam and Eve as they were created beings. Even though Jesus had no father, he had a mother. We believe that he also was a created being since he was not conceived in the natural way. Quran 19:35-36 "It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Transcendent is He! When He determines a matter, He only says to it: “Be!” and it is. (And Jesus had declared): “Assuredly Allah is my Lord and your Lord. Therefore serve Him. That is the Straight Path.” and Quran 3:59 – "The likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then He said to him: “Be!” and he was."

The fundamental article of Islamic faith can be summarized in Quran 112:1-4, "Say: He Allah, is One! Allah, the eternally Besought! He has not begotten, nor been begotten, and equal to Him there is none."