A Message To The Non-Muslims After which they are not Excused by Ignorance
Bismillaahir Rahmaanir Raheem
Dear Reader,
The purpose of this message is to invite you to think of and contemplate about the real purpose of your life on this earth and where you will end up in the Hereafter. Will you end up in Paradise or in Hell-Fire? Please, take note, that when you have read this message, you are considered to have legislatively been given proof and been informed of the admonition of all messengers, and after which you will not be excused by ignorance:
Take note that Allah the Almighty is the One and Only God. He is Eternal. He is Absolute. He has not begotten and has not been begotten and no one is like Him.
Allah says: “Say: He is Allah, the One; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him.” Surah No.112, Verses 1-4.
Allah says: “He is the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees.” Surah No. 42, Verse No. 11.
Learn that Allah the Almighty is the Creator of all creatures. There is no god for this universe and what it holds but Allah.
Allah says:“Allah is the Creator Of all things, and He is the Guardian and Disposer of all affairs.” Surah No.39 Verse 62.
Allah says: “Such is Allah, your Lord, The Creator of all things, there is no god but He: Then how you are deluded away from the Truth!” Surah No.40, Verse No.62.
Allah says:“To Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and earth: To Allah do all matters return.” Surah No.3 Verse No. 109.
Be informed that Allah the Almighty has created you for one single purpose which is to worship Him alone.
Allah says:“I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me”. Surah No.51 Verse No. 56.
Allah says:“And they have been commanded no more than this: To worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being true (in faith); to establish regular prayer; and to give zakat (i.e. charity given to the needy); and that is the Religion Right and Straight”. Surah No.98, Verse No. 5.
Understand that it is out of sincerity and purity of worship to Allah to avoid worshipping the created whoever and whatever they may be.
Allah says:“Certainly they disbelieve who say: “(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah, - Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.” Surah No. 5, Verse No. 72.
Allah says:“Say: "I do no more than invoke my Lord, and I join not with Him any (false god).” Surah No 72, Verse No. 20.
Allah says:“Say: "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your God is one God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner.” Surah No. 18, Verse No. 110.
Allah says:“Those to whom We have given the Book rejoice at what hath been revealed unto thee: but there are among the clans those who reject a part thereof. Say: "I am commanded to worship Allah, and not to join partners with Him. Unto Him do I call, and unto Him is my return.” Surah No. 13, Verse No. 36.
Learn that he, who worships Allah joining with Him another whoever or whatever it may be, has associated partners with Allah and consequently his deeds will turn fruitless and he will be among the losers.
Allah says:“But it has already been revealed to thee, - as it was to those before thee, - “if thou wert to join (gods with Allah), truly fruitless will be thy work (in life), and thou wilt surely be among the losers.” Surah No. 29, Verse No. 65.
Allah says: “This is the Guidance of Allah: He giveth that guidance to whom He pleaseth, of His servants if they were to join other gods with Him, all that they did would be vain for them.” Surah No. 6, Verse No.88.
Take note that Allah the Almighty sent all Prophets and Messengers to reinforce and remind people that there is no god but Allah. That is nothing is worthy of being worshipped but Allah.
Allah says: “For we assuredly sent amongst every people a Messenger, (with the command), “serve Allah, and eschew Evil”: of the people were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom Error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).” Surah No.16, Verse No. 36.
Allah says: “Not a messenger did We send before thee without this inspiration sent by Us to him: that there is no god but I; therefore worship and serve Me.” Surah 21 Verse 25. There is no prophet who said to his people but: “We sent Noah to his people. He said: “O my people! Worship Allah! Ye have no other god but Him. I fear for you the Punishment of a dreadful Day!” Surah No. 7, Verse No. 59.
Be informed that having faith and believing in all Prophets and Messengers is a must. If anyone rejects faith or doesn’t believe one Prophet or Messenger of Allah’s the Almighty, they are rejecting faith in Allah and disbelieving Him and all His Prophets and Messengers.
Allah says: “The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith, each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His Messengers. “We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of his Messengers.” And they say: “We hear, and we obey: (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys.” Surah No. 2, Verse No. 285.
Allah says:“‘Verily it has been revealed to us that the Chastisement (awaits) those who reject and turn away.” Surah No. 20, Verse No. 48.
Allah says:“And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah or rejects the Truth when it reaches him? Is there not a home in Hell for those who reject Faith?” Surah No.29, Verse No. 68.
Allah says:“Those who reject the Book and the (revelations) with which we sent Our messengers: but soon shall they know.” Surah No. 40, Verse No. 70.
Be informed that Muhammad bin Abudullah bin Abdullmutalib (Peace and Blessings of Allah Be Upon Him) (PBBUH ) is the Messenger of Allah, who was sent by Allah as mercy to the worlds, giving glad tidings and warnings and that he is the seal of all Prophets and messengers and there is no Prophet after him.
Allah says: “Muhammad is no more than a Messenger: many were the Messengers that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.” Surah No. 3, Verse No. 144.
Allah says: “Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures),-in the Taurat and the Gospel; - for he commands them what is just and Forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure): He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him, - it is they who will prosper.” Surah No. 7, verse No. 157.
Allah says: “Say: “O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to who belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He that giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger. The unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words, follow him that (so) ye may be guided.” Surah No. 7, Verse No. 158.
Allah says: “Now hath come to you a Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that you should suffer, ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful”. Surah No. 9, Verse No. 128.
Allah says: “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets. And Allah has full knowledge of all things.” Surah No. 33, Verse No. 40.
Allah says: “Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah…” Surah No 48, Verse No. 29.
Allah says: “And remember, Jesus, the Son of Mary, said: “O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Taurat (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad. But when he came to them with Clear Signs, They said, “This is evident sorcery!” Surah No.61, Verse No.6.Take note that Allah the Almighty revealed to Muhammad (PBBUH) the Holy Quran which is the word of Allah and which contains Guidance and Light for the worlds. It has alsoexplanation of everything.
Allah says: “Ramadan is the (month) in which was sent down The Qur’an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong) so every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spent it in fasting, but if anyone is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you: He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.” Surah No.2, Verse No.185.
Allah says: “Say: “What thing is most weighty in evidence?” say: “Allah is witness between me and you; this Qur’an hath been revealed to me by inspiration. That I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can ye possibly bear witness that besides Allah there are other gods?” say: “Nay! I cannot bear witness!” Surah No. 6, Verse No. 19.
Allah says:“Verily this Quran doth guide to that which is most right (or stable), and giveth the glad tidings to the Believers who work deeds of righteousness, that they shall have a magnificent reward.” Surah No. 17, Verse No. 9. Allah says: “We send down (stage by stage) of the Quran that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe: to the unjust it causes nothing but loss after loss.” Surah No. 17, Verse No. 82.
Allah says: “As for thee, thou receives theQuran from One All-Wise, All-Knowing.” Surah No. 27, Verse No. 6.
Allah says:“And We have explained to man, in this Quran, every kind of similitude: yet greater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with gratitude!” Surah No. 17, Verse No. 89.
Appreciate that the Holy Quran, which was revealed to Allah’s Prophet (PBBUH), has been the Greatest Evident Miracle Ever. It is continuing and everlastingly challenging all mankind gathered together to produce something like it or like one of its Surahs.
Allah says: “Say: ‘if the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.’” Surah No. 17, Verse No. 88.
Allah says: “And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witness or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah, if ye are truthful.” Surah No. 2, Verse No. 23.
Be informed that Allah has ordered all mankind no matter what their colours, sexes; languages may be to believe in Muhammad the Prophet (PBBUP), follow him and obey him. He who obeys the Prophet (PBBUH) obeys Allah and consequently he will be on the right path; and; he who disobeysthe Prophet (PBBUH), disobeys Allah and consequently he will be on the wrong path.
Allah says: “Say: “Obey Allah and His Messenger”: but if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject faith.” Surah No. 3, Verse No. 32.
Allah says:“O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak).” Surah No. 8, Verse No. 20.
Allah says:“He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah…” Surah No. 4, Verse No. 80. Allah says: “Say: “if ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most merciful.” Surah No. 3, Verse No. 31.Take note that he who hears of Muhammad the Prophet (PBBUH) and neither believes in him nor follows him is a disbeliever in Allah, rejecting faith in Him andconsequently worthy to be tortured on the Day of Judgement.
Allah says: “We know indeed the grief which their words do cause thee: It is not thee they reject: It is the Signs of Allah, which the wicked deny.” Surah No. 6, Verse No. 33.
Allah says:“On that day those who reject Faith and disobey the Messenger will wish that the earth were made one with them: but never will they hide a single fact from Allah!” Surah No. 4, Verse No. 42. Allah says: “If anyone contends with the Messenger even after Guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men to Faith, we shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell,- What an evil refuge!” Surah No. 4, Verse No. 115.
The Prophet (PBBUH) says: “By the One in whose hands Muhammad’s soul is, if anyone, anywhere in the world, whether a Jew or Christian hears of me and dies without believing in my Message will definitely be amongst those in Hell-Fire.” (Muslim)
Take note that the Religion before Allah is Islam and it is the religion of all Prophets and Messengers. No religion is accepted of anyone but Islam.
Allah says:“And Abraham enjoined upon his sons and so did Jacob;” Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the state of submission (to Me).” Surah No. 2, Verse No.132.
Allah says: “The Religion before Allah is Islam..” Surah No. 3, Verse No. 19.
Allah says:“If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah) never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost.” Surah No. 3, Verse No.85.
Be informed that resurrection after death is coming and absolutely true; the Hour is coming and absolutely true and theaccountability on doomsday is absolutely true.
Allah says: “Lost indeed are they who treat it as a falsehood that they must meet Allah, - until on a sudden the Hour is on them, and they say: “Ah! Woe unto us that we neglected; for they bear their burdens on their backs, and evil indeed are the burdens that they bear?” Surah No. 6 Verse No. 31.
Allah says:“Verily the Hour is coming- I have almost kept it hidden- for every soul to receive its reward by the measure of its Endeavour.” Surah No. 20, Verse No. 15.
Allah says:“And verily the Hour will come: there can be no doubt about it, or about (the fact) that Allah will raise up all who are in the graves.” Surah No. 22, Verse No. 7.
Allah says:“The Unbelievers say, “Never to us will come the Hour”: say, “Nay! But most surely, by my Lord, it will come upon you;…” Surah No 34, Verse No. 3.
Allah says:“The Hour will certainly come: therein is no doubt: yet most men believe not.” Surah No. 40, Verse No. No. 59. Allah says:“Again, on the Day of Judgement, will ye be raised up.” Surah No. 23, Verse No. 16.
Allah says:“Allah is never unjust in the least degree: if there is any good (done), He doubleth it, and giveth from His Own self a great reward.” Surah No. 4, Verse No. 40.
Allah says:“Then shall anyone who has done an atom’s weight of good, see it! And anyone who has done an atom’s weight of evil, shall see it.” Surah No. 99, Verses Nos. 7-8. Learn that Paradise and its bounties are absolutely true, therein everlasting goodness and bounties of which no ear has ever heard of, or an eye has ever seen or a mind has ever been able to imagine. All this has been prepared Allah’s righteous believers.
Allah says:“The parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised! - beneath it flow rivers; perpetual is the fruits therof and the shade therein: such is the End of the Righteous and the End of the Unbelievers is the Fire.” Surah No. 13, Verse No. 35.
Allah says:“But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow, every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: “Why, this what we were fed with before,” for that are given things in similitude; and they have therein spouses purified; and they abide therein (forever).” Surah No. 2, Verse No. 25.
Allah says:“But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness- to them shall We give a Home in Heaven, - lofty mansions beneath which flow rivers, -to dwell therein for aye; an excellent reward for those who do (good)!” Surah No. 29, Verse No. 58.
Allah says:“Verily the Companions of the Garden shall that Day have joy in all that they do.” Surah No. 36, Verse No. 55.
Allah says:“(Here is) the description of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water unstaling; rivers of Milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Forgiveness from their Lord, (can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell fro ever in the Fire and be given to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?” Surah No.47, Verse No. 15.
Allah says:“Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous.” Surah No.3 Verse No 133.
Allahsays: “Be ye foremost (in seeking) forgiveness from your Lord, and a Garden (of Bliss), the width whereof is as the width of heaven and earth prepared for those who believe in Allah and His messengers: that is the Grace of Allah, which He bestows on whom He pleases: and Allah is the Lord of Grace abounding.” Surah No. 57, Verse No. 21.
Learn that the Hell fire is absolutely true; its torture in is true; and fierce. It has a torture that is extremely fierce, harsh, and perpetual. Its torture is something that no ear has ever heard of, or an eye has ever seen or a mind has ever been able to imagine. All this has been prepared for those who associate partners with Allah and who made it false to believe in Allah.
Allah says: “Know they not that for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger is the Fire of Hell? - Wherein they shall dwell. That is the supreme disgrace.” Surah No.9, Verse No. 63.
Allah says:“…on the Day of Judgement we shall gather them together, prone on their faces, blind, dumb, and deaf: their abode will be Hell: every time it shows abatement, We shall increase for them the fierceness of the Fire.” Surah No. 17, Verse No. 97.
Allah says: “And We shall drive the sinners to hell, (like thirsty cattle driven down to water)” Surah No. 19, Verse No. 86.
Allah says: “Verily he who comes to his Lord as a sinner (at Judgement), -for him is Hell: therein shall he neither die nor live.” Surah No. 20, Verse No. 74.
Allah says:“But those who reject (Allah) - for them will be the Fire of Hell: not term shall be determined for them, so they should die, nor shall its Chastisement be lightened for them. Thus do WE reward every ungrateful.” Surah No. 35, Verse No. 36. Allah says: “The Unbelievers will be led to Hell in groups: until, when they arrive there, its gates will be opened. And its Keepers will say, “Did not messengers come to you from among yourselves, rehearsing to you the Signs of your Lord, and warning you of the Meeting of this Day of yours?” The answer will be: “True: but the Decree of Chastisement has been proved true against the Unbelievers!” Surah No. 39, Verse No. 71.
Take note that if you die believing in the oneness of God and in Muhammad (PBBUH), Allah’s last Messenger, you will be amongst those who will be saved and led into Paradise to live in its bounties for ever.
Allah says: “But such as come to Him as Believers who have worked righteous deeds, for them are ranks exalted.” Surah No. 20, Verse No. 75.
Whereas, if you die associating partners with Allah, disbelieving in Him and rejecting faith in Him, you will be among thosewhowill be in Hell Fire for ever and ever.
Allah says: “But whosoever turns away from My Message, verily for him is a life narrowed down, and We shall raisehim up blind on the Day of Judgement.” SurahNo. 20, Verse 124.
Allah says: “And who does more wrong than one to whom are recited the Signs of his Lord, and who then turns way therefrom? Verily from those who transgress We shall exact (due) retribution.” Surah No. 32, Verse no. 22.
Allah says: “Verily he who comes to his Lord as a sinner (at Judgement),-for him is Hell: therein shall he neither die nor live.” Surah No. 20, Verse No. 74
Allah says: “…and if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.” Surah No. 2, Verse No. 217
Be informed that there is no force in religion; the right path is clear and the wrong path is clear. So after you have read and thought of and contemplated about the above message, you will not be excused by ignorance. As the warnings and message of all messengers have now reached you, you will be brought to account and be accountable on the Day of Judgment when there is no benefit for money or children but only for those who will come with good deeds and clear hearts.Finallytake note that the devils of mankind and Jinn’s and the wicked of the learned among them are scheming day and night to prevent you from listening to this message and to any other message that speaks of the Truth.
We pray to Allah that He helps you find the right path and guide you to what pleases Him
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds
What you've mentioned are a mathematical and a biological concept respectively. I don't know why you call them logical concepts.
what is illogical about them?
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I take your point. Atheism is a belief, and hasn't been proven with logic. Agnosticism is more logically rigorous, in that it sees no evidence to support the existence of god and so takes a neutral position. I believe atheism is true largely because I think it is far more likely that god was invented by humans than that he actually exists.
Peace
Good for you!
Peace....
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I'm not calling them illogical, I'm just unsure as to why you call them 'logical concepts' when they are from disciplines other than logic.
If you're talking about ideas that make sense or can be logically justified that some people haven't grasped or aren't aware of, then fine - of course the people's ignorance does nothing to invalidate the truth of these cocnepts. But that's surely different from the god-concept, which atheists are very much aware of and have often thought about deeply.
I'm not calling them illogical, I'm just unsure as to why you call them 'logical concepts' when they are from disciplines other than logic.
If you're talking about ideas that make sense or can be logically justified that some people haven't grasped or aren't aware of, then fine - of course the people's ignorance does nothing to invalidate the truth of these cocnepts. But that's surely different from the god-concept, which atheists are very much aware of and have often thought about deeply.
Peace
one of the definitions of logic as per Merriam Webster
Main Entry: log·i·cal
Pronunciation: 'lä-ji-k&l
Function: adjective
1 a (1) : of, relating to, involving, or being in accordance with logic (2) : skilled in logic b : formally true or valid
So yes meant as (true or valid)! And yes many a sane, reflective persons can't accept or comprehend true and or valid concepts in regular fields, which others use in practice everyday!... Someone might arrive to the existence of G-D just through reflections of the mathematical impossibility of this world being a mere chance!
The probabilities of millions of positive coincidences is beyond anything they have learned in the fields of statistics, mathematics and probability leads them to conclude this universe wasn't a random mistake-- someone else in medicine might not understand who drives the aorticopulmonary septum to rotate a good 90 degrees to prevent transposition of the great vessels or why we have several pace makers in the heart to prevent it from going into arrest should one of them mal-function... or why the cardiac muscle is the only muscle in the body to not be affected by tetany.. or why even under hypovolemic shock the brain isn't affected until there is truly massive bleeding, as most of the blood gets shunted from the rest of the body to maintain brain function. It is logical-- an intelligent event that isn't haphazard is occuring and continues to occur--every day around the globe!
All of these natural perfect events happen on their own volition.... We know why it happens physiologically and even what it prevents-- what the outcome will be should it not happen exactly as described --but don't know what drove these events to to occur as such-- to proper function--by whom? .... these are a few and I mean very few examples of things that go right every day that you might not even think about.. some take for granted call it by some other name (mother nature) etc etc..
So frankly... it is perfectly logical for us to understand why there is a creator even by default if you will. It is too phenomenal to be the work of chance. One might later look to philosophy or religion to enhance or cement their conclusions.......this might not be easily digested by your person, because your brain works on a different plane... not as an insult to your ability to comprehend basic concepts in mathematics or medicine or other fields that might lead to the same conclusions--- as it comes easily to someone else-- it just makes perfect sense to them and not to you... So you telling someone--
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
"A logical argument will convince any rational person, no matter what their prior beliefs, as long as its premises are accepted".
I'd have to beg to differ--not everyone understands all that is logical as long as its premises are accepted!... besides that some concepts and premises are not even formally taught as a part of regular curriculum. All fields have a potential to branch into theology and philosophy... but that isn't what people pay or expect when they sign up for a class! ... its branches are outside of academia, on the basis that religion is ultimately a personal choice and not a coercion!..
And peace to you!
Last edited by جوري; 03-28-2007 at 09:39 PM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I take your point. Atheism is a belief, and hasn't been proven with logic. Agnosticism is more logically rigorous, in that it sees no evidence to support the existence of god and so takes a neutral position. I believe atheism is true largely because I think it is far more likely that god was invented by humans than that he actually exists.
Peace
Again, that is 100% a statement of theological belief (or disbelief in this case) and suffers from all the same problems that you apply to beliefs in God-- i.e. it itself is not a logical conclusion, the source of your conclusion lies within your own personal conception of what reality is or isn't.
The probabilities of millions of positive coincidences is beyond anything they have learned in the fields of statistics, mathematics and probability leads them to conclude this universe wasn't a random mistake-- someone else in medicine might not understand who drives the aorticopulmonary septum to rotate a good 90 degrees to prevent transposition of the great vessels or why we have several pace makers in the heart to prevent it from going into arrest should one of them mal-function... or why the cardiac muscle is the only muscle in the body to not be affected by tetany.. or why even under hypovolemic shock the brain isn't affected until there is truly massive bleeding, as most of the blood gets shunted from the rest of the body to maintain brain function. It is logical-- an intelligent event that isn't haphazard is occuring and continues to occur--every day around the globe!
Thank you for giving the argument from design once again. Either this convinces a person or it doesn't, and we happen to be on opposite sides of that particular fence.
So frankly... it is perfectly logical for us to understand why there is a creator even by default if you will. It is too phenomenal to be the work of chance.
Who mentioned chance?
I'd have to beg to differ--not everyone understands all that is logical as long as its premises are accepted!...
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. If you're simply saying 'there are some things which are logically justifiable that not everyone understands', then fine, that is not a controversial statement. All I'm trying to do is to show that 'logic' is called upon by some theists to support their argument, and that if this was truly so then their argument would convince non-believers; as it is, that is not the case, so their arguments cannot be purely logical.
besides that some concepts and premises are not even formally taught as a part of regular curriculum.
Just to be clear - can you give examples of what you're talking about here?
All fields have a potential to branch into theology and philosophy... but that isn't what people pay or expect when they sign up for a class! ...
I'm not sure what point you're making here either, I'm afraid.
its branches are outside of academia, on the basis that religion is ultimately a personal choice and not a coercion!..
That's absolutely the way it should be.
Again, that is 100% a statement of theological belief (or disbelief in this case) and suffers from all the same problems that you apply to beliefs in God-- i.e. it itself is not a logical conclusion, the source of your conclusion lies within your own personal conception of what reality is or isn't.
I agree completely. Perhaps I haven't been making myself clear - if so, please forgive my ineptitude.
I am an atheist. Although I place a high value on logic, I don't think that atheism is logically rigorous, and I don't think there is any proof that atheism is true. It is simply my belief, just as religious people have their beliefs.
I think that since there is no evidence for the existence of god that comes up to the level of evidence we have for, say, the existence of trees, dreams, music or thought, it is reasonable to doubt his existence. According to the scientific method, that would be a rational position. Beyond this is mere belief, and that is where atheism is situated.
Although adherence to athiesm simply seems intuitively obvious to me, I don't want to pretend it's a view based entirely on rigorous logic. I do object, though, to religious opinions that claim to be 'clear', 'logical', 'rational' or to possess 'proof' of their assumptions where there is none, and that is why I responded negatively to a claim of 'logic' earlier on in this thread.
Thank you for giving the argument from design once again. Either this convinces a person or it doesn't, and we happen to be on opposite sides of that particular fence.
What would you like to work with?
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. If you're simply saying 'there are some things which are logically justifiable that not everyone understands', then fine, that is not a controversial statement. All I'm trying to do is to show that 'logic' is called upon by some theists to support their argument, and that if this was truly so then their argument would convince non-believers; as it is, that is not the case, so their arguments cannot be purely logical.
we are in agreement with first part of that statement--
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Just to be clear - can you give examples of what you're talking about here?
I have tired of giving you examples...
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I'm not sure what point you're making here either, I'm afraid.
It isn't really the abstract work of Rothko... I am not sure what is so difficult for you to comprehend?
peace!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected
With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful
Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)
&&
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
....
just the thoughts of this kafir.
----suggesstions pl. from Kafir ........errrrrrrr......many people believe it's a bad word. I heard of Dr. Zakir Naik ....it's the word for those who don't believe in One God & the Last Prophet (p) ...just as the words like non-Jew , non- Hindu etc.
I want to know if non-Muslims feel more comfortable with the word God instead of Allah ? I read in a revert story that even after embracing Islam , the bro was more comfortable with the word God .
If non-Muslims feel more comfortable with God , then while telling them about Islam , should Muslims use God instead of Allah ? So that they can feel that it's the same God & not some strange diety etc.
[BANANA] i'm still safe - i only read the first paragraph![/BANANA]
---hahaha , so u think , ignorance is bliss ?
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
----suggesstions pl. from Kafir ........errrrrrrr......many people believe it's a bad word. I heard of Dr. Zakir Naik ....it's the word for those who don't believe in One God & the Last Prophet (p) ...just as the words like non-Jew , non- Hindu etc.
The reason it has negative connotations right now is because certain Muslims publically spit the word like venom. I just say 'non-Muslim' and if people ask what 'Kafir' means, I tell them. It's a lot like the word 'Gentile' come to think of it.
I want to know if non-Muslims feel more comfortable with the word God instead of Allah ? I read in a revert story that even after embracing Islam , the bro was more comfortable with the word God .
If non-Muslims feel more comfortable with God , then while telling them about Islam , should Muslims use God instead of Allah ? So that they can feel that it's the same God & not some strange diety etc.
'Allah' is simply the Arabic word for 'God', so whatever people are comfortable with should be okay. Allah/God will know what they mean anyhow
----suggesstions pl. from Kafir ........errrrrrrr......many people believe it's a bad word. I heard of Dr. Zakir Naik ....it's the word for those who don't believe in One God & the Last Prophet (p) ...just as the words like non-Jew , non- Hindu etc.
i don't know how typical i am for a non-muslim, but i have no problem with "kaffir" - like muezzin pointed out - it's just like "gentile" (goy). some people do find it offensive though, so it's best to use the more neutral term non-muslim.
I want to know if non-Muslims feel more comfortable with the word God instead of Allah ? I read in a revert story that even after embracing Islam , the bro was more comfortable with the word God .
If non-Muslims feel more comfortable with God , then while telling them about Islam , should Muslims use God instead of Allah ? So that they can feel that it's the same God & not some strange diety etc.
i'm fine with allah. i'm not likely to use it myself, because it would feel unnatural, or phony. i do know that some non-muslims think allah is a different god.
---hahaha , so u think , ignorance is bliss ?
who knows? seriously, i do not like the use of fear or threat, as in the first post on this thread. when i read that, i read no further.
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
contrary to popular opinion... I believe the after life is more about justice than it is of reward and punishment... but I'll go no further than that as I covered what that in some details on different threads-- and I have a more pressing things to do at the moment .........
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
If non-Muslims feel more comfortable with God , then while telling them about Islam , should Muslims use God instead of Allah ? So that they can feel that it's the same God & not some strange diety etc.
I sometimes use God in my discussions, but, if I don't use Allah, I try to preface it with "The One..." or otherwise qualify what I mean. The Christian concept of God is so intertwined with the Trinity - Father, Son (Jesus) and "the Holy Spirit" that I am inclined to not leave it open ended and vague.
If non-Muslims feel more comfortable with God , then while telling them about Islam , should Muslims use God instead of Allah ? So that they can feel that it's the same God & not some strange diety etc.
I think one should always speak with one's audience in mind.
If you feel that Allah is the same God that others would mean by the term God and that they might mistakenly think that Allah is some other god. Then, unless it is actually offensive, I would recommend using the term God to speak of God.
but what is the god that the audience speaks of? the porcelain god? the river god...some Indian gods? a forest god? some female goddess?
Allah is distinguished... can't be turned plural, can't be turned into the feminine as can be done in English... and is the way it first appeared in Semitic tongue...
If we pronounce the words "Allah" in Arabic and "Elahh (pronounced as 'El-aw')" in Aramaic, then we would hear almost the same exact word.
Religion came from that part of the world (the middle east) it came down in Semitic tongue -- not in English.... if the audience can't comprehend that... then I reckon they have bigger problems than just words being lost in translation...
I have never been big on extending dawa to anyone...
[28 56] It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one whom thou lovest; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance."
I have always thought it a privilege to be a Muslim not a right....
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
but what is the god that the audience speaks of? the porcelain god? the river god...some Indian gods? a forest god? some female goddess?
Hence why I began: "If you feel that Allah is the same God that others would mean by the term God ...."
You obviously would not want to use any term other than Allah. It is possible that Muslim Woman might. And, looking at the title of this thread, she was speaking to non-Muslims when she asked her question.
...i have no problem with "kaffir" - like muezzin pointed out - it's just like "gentile" (goy). some people do find it offensive though, so it's best to use the more neutral term non-muslim..
--want to clarify something.......i don't use the word kafir , usually i write non-Muslim. U used the word kafir & i just used that jokingly....hope nobody misunderstood me
who knows? seriously, i do not like the use of fear or threat, as in the first post on this thread. when i read that, i read no further.
----ummmm , was not paradise was also mentioned in the 1st para ? So, it was not that horrific i guess
Last edited by Muslim Woman; 03-29-2007 at 09:24 AM.
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
looks like another post gets deleted. nothing was off topic on what i posted, a message was given 2 'kafirs' and so i gave my reply. and yet its deleted
Blessed, blessed is that tongue, O my soul, which sings the Glorious Praises of the Lord God.
Sublime, pure and pious is that head, O my soul, which falls at the Lords Feet.
Nanak is a sacrifice to those, O my soul, who hear of the Lord, and believe in the Lord's Name.
If you're going to try to convert people who don't believe in Islam to the Islamic way, don't exclusively use verses from your holy book.
How can you expect people who don't believe in Allah to convert just because you explained that your holy book states that "Allah says this", or "Allah says that"?
Elsewhere on the internet, this thread would be deemed "epic fail".
I have no problem with being called a "Kafir". If people will choose speak to me in a hateful way for what I believe, so be it. I make no apologies for who I am.
If you're going to try to convert people who don't believe in Islam to the Islamic way, don't exclusively use verses from your holy book.
How can you expect people who don't believe in Allah to convert just because you explained that your holy book states that "Allah says this", or "Allah says that"?
Elsewhere on the internet, this thread would be deemed "epic fail".
I have no problem with being called a "Kafir". If people will choose speak to me in a hateful way for what I believe, so be it. I make no apologies for who I am.
???--no one has expectations from you.. no interest in converting you...no one has tread on your atheists forums speaking of Allah-- to really care what it would be called else where on the net ...... and Who here has singled you as kaffir or spoken to you hatefully? pls take a deep breath and get a glass of water.. and just calm down... I feel like you have gone into hysterics! ......
peace!
Last edited by جوري; 03-30-2007 at 05:47 AM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
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