There are many books that speak of the inerrancy of the Bible (Bibliography available upon request). The Bible also talks about Ishmael the father of the Arab race. God told Hagar to go back from running away from Abraham and Sarah. He said Ishmael was going to be very strong (Donkey of a man) with him against very man and very man against him. That is what I believe we see today - the Arab race against every man and every man against him. That is Biblical prophesy in action today. Jesus comes from the seed of Isaac and Ishmael comes for the seed of Ishmael Jehovah spoke in Isaiah 45:23 and said “I have sworn by myself, the word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall swear.” Colossians 2:9 States that in Christ dwells all of The Godhead fully. Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. In Jn. 13:19 Jesus declares himself “ I am” To the Jews he does it again by saying before Abraham was “I am” That is some pretty strong evidence according to the Bible that is inerrant by the hand of the Almighty that Jesus will tear down very imagination that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against spiritual wickness in high places. This is all said according to Scripture and can be backed up as such.
Yes, I do not question the notion of some errors in the Bible.
Question, how do you now distinguish the truth from the error?
format_quote Originally Posted by don532
I have looked at the gospels without the writings of Paul. Sure seems to me the same message is there. For example in Luke 24, it is recorded Jesus opened their minds to the scriptures and told them It is written Christ would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins would be preached in his name.....
You do know the writings of Paul in some cases are earlier than the Gospels, so I don't understand what you mean in the above caption.
format_quote Originally Posted by don532
Now I know there are answering Christianity websites out there that insist the forgiveness of sins was something God delegated to Jesus.......and Islam teaches Jesus didn't really die.....Perhaps we are in a circle here. I do not mean to waste your time. I also should study this more.
I don't see what circle we are in, I have not as of yet even spoken about Islam or even touched on Islam, all I have said is stuff that non Muslims have said before, it has nothing to do with Islam.
The idea of questioning the integrity of the Bible does not stem from Islam Don.
P.s. for anyone interested, when someone does not speak to me directly and you happen to see me not reply to someone's claim or keeping silent, it neither means I am doing so out of agreement nor out of the fact I cannot refute it, rather I am saving my time, for those who would like to speak then no probs.
Regards
Eesa.
Pps The above does not mean I can refute everyone lol.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
why is is that when people are unable to come up with a halfway decent reply they either resort to preaching or start rambling?
I used to ask that same Q... then I decided to concede my surrender-- it is like a battle between iggy pop and correggio.... not even on the same planet let alone same platform-- now when I read the same recycled rhetoric I just shrug my shoulders shake my head and move on to the next post of interest!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Lets look at what is written in Isaiah 53 which clearly lines up with everything about Jesus: Who hath believed our report and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed...
What a great presumption that Isaiah 53 is even talking about Jesus. Glory be to Almighty God.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
[QUOTE=alapiana1;701438] If Jesus is not my creator QUOTE]
i don't know why, because i know christians consider jesus to be god, but somehow jesus as creator is an entirely new concept to me. hmmm....
so jesus created the world?
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
Here's a question for thought which I feel is related to this topic. Two people are near death. One has a healthy brain but needs a body to survive, and the other a healthy body but needs a brain to survive. If the healthy body is given the healthy brain, what would be the identity of the transplant survivor, that of the one who donated the body, or of the one that donated the brain?
My question still remains unanswered.
Who was running the universe while the God was playing brain surgeon or donating one to himself and was dead for over 2 days?
Here's a question for thought which I feel is related to this topic. Two people are near death. One has a healthy brain but needs a body to survive, and the other a healthy body but needs a brain to survive. If the healthy body is given the healthy brain, what would be the identity of the transplant survivor, that of the one who donated the body, or of the one that donated the brain?
I would think the identity would go to the one who donated the brain or the head. In the New Testament The Bible says that Christ is the head of the church and we make up the body and every part of the body has a different function. That is why the eye cannot say to the ear I don't need you or the hand to foot I don't need you, because if the whole body were an eye where would the hearing be? I can see through this Bibilical model how the church and Christ who is the head according to the Bible function as one yet there are many that make up the Body. Therefore, we inherit the identiy from Christ who is the head should you choose to except him as the head of the church and your life. We are according to the Scriptures being conformed to His image on a daily basis, and it is He who will complete what He started in us. I know that Muslims do not see it this way, but I thought you might be interested to see it from a Christians perspective even as I am interest in seeing a Muslims' views.
Originally Posted by NoName55 If God and Jesus are one, then who do you suggest was the Sovereign Preserver of all things seen and unseen, during the two days and nights the Bible alleges He was dead and buried? how did the universe continue to exist? the driver is dead but the juggernaut keeps travelling forward without squishing any and everything in its path, pilot has snuffed it the aircraft keeps flying.
P.S this is the last repitition I'm making since I'm/my posts are invisible
We cannot understand how God can always exisit with no beginning; we cannot understand were the wind is coming from or where it is going; we cannot understand how Jesus could raise the dead. We cannot explain the eternal things of God with the finite ways of man. God is a spirit not flesh and blood. It is written that all things were made by Jesus and for Him and all things are held together by the Word of God - that is Jesus according to the Bible. I will glading accept the responsibility for believing such things.
from all this in your posts and bible study I can only assume that there is actually a large Zues type family of gods unless the following verses are made up by me and are not from you bible
Jacob is God's son and firstborn: "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22.
Solomon is God's son "He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14.
Ephraim is God's firstborn: "for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?).
Adam is the son of God "Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38.
Common people (you and me) are the sons of God: "Ye are the children of the LORD your God" Deuteronomy 14:1.
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" Romans 8:14.
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12.
"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15.
"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: ... now are we the sons of God" 1 John 3:1-2.
"When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:7.
"Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 2:1.
"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 1:6.
"when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men," Genesis 6:4.
"That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair" Genesis 6:2
deal with these 1 by 1 or do not post, in an ideal world you would be required to deal with questions and answers as they are presented to you. since it is not happening I shall keep out until such time as someone takes charge of the thread and forces paticipants to stop being devious, and going off in all directions
Question, how do you now distinguish the truth from the error?
You do know the writings of Paul in some cases are earlier than the Gospels, so I don't understand what you mean in the above caption.
I don't see what circle we are in, I have not as of yet even spoken about Islam or even touched on Islam, all I have said is stuff that non Muslims have said before, it has nothing to do with Islam.
The idea of questioning the integrity of the Bible does not stem from Islam Don.
P.s. for anyone interested, when someone does not speak to me directly and you happen to see me not reply to someone's claim or keeping silent, it neither means I am doing so out of agreement nor out of the fact I cannot refute it, rather I am saving my time, for those who would like to speak then no probs.
Regards
Eesa.
Pps The above does not mean I can refute everyone lol.
I haven't figured out yet how to quote a reply in parts.
The errors I concede are not in opposition to the main message which is woven through the Bible. The Word was with God, the law came, Jesus(pbuh) fulfilled the law.
What I meant was I have read the New Testament without Paul's books.
I think I was in a circle with my last comment. No reflection on you or our discussion.
Now I have to learn that quote in pieces thing....
There is no point in correcting you; no point in saying root is Adam (taught by Allah). No more any point in you being allowed to remain a member here, but that is too much to hope for, for I'll be deleted from here long before you. Wa-salaam alaikum
I believe that Adam is root. I'm sharing what I believe a majority of Christians believe. And what the Bible is saying regarding certain areas in discussion. Adam was the first (root) but Jesus according to the Bible is the Last Adam - not the second so as to suggest their could be a third. This is not meant as an attack on you or what you believe. Our beliefs will be tried by the only one and true God who is both our creator making us brothers in humanity. There is a lot we don't see clearly now but we will know soon even as we are known. Till than, we owe love to eachother, because without Love there can be no peace.
Peace
aj
Who was running the universe while the God was playing brain surgeon or donating one to himself and was dead for over 2 days?
When the body of Christ died, the spirit of Christ did not die. Since Christians believe in the Diety of Christ, then God's Spirit did not die. The Bible clearly teaches that while Christ was in the grave, God did not die.
Jn 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
So does Islam believe that a person's spirit and soul dies at physical death?
The errors I concede are not in opposition to the main message which is woven through the Bible. The Word was with God, the law came, Jesus(pbuh) fulfilled the law.
Am confused bro. Rephrase that for me please.
format_quote Originally Posted by don532
What I meant was I have read the New Testament without Paul's books.
Yes, but the Gospels having been written after the some of paul's letters can have the influence of his works. You see what I mean?
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
When the body of Christ died, the spirit of Christ did not die. Since Christians believe in the Diety of Christ, then God's Spirit did not die. The Bible clearly teaches that while Christ was in the grave, God did not die.
Jn 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
So does Islam believe that a person's spirit and soul dies at physical death?
while Christ was in the grave, God did not die.
So they are two distinct personages, Thank you very much
So they are two distinct personages, I rest my case! Thank you very much
They are distinct, but inseparable. The human body of Christ died, not His spirit. It seems many Muslims get caught up in the supposed "personages" in the Trinity without including the most basic concept of the Trinity as a whole, which is three elements of the One.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
So they are two distinct personages, Thank you very much
I knew you wanted this answer, so I posted it to get your reply. Notice that Christ said while He was in the grave ("Destroy this temple"), He was capable of bringing His body back to life ("and in three days I will raise it up").
I find it interesting that Muslims acknowledge that God can do miracles and that He is beyond our understanding, but when it comes to Jesus being the Son of God, God's actions must be within human understanding to be acceptable.
Peace Don, no problem with us disagreeing. It is very much appreciated that your disagreements are with dignity and respect.
I must state that Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, and Hippolytus were all Popes and used Papal Infallibility to establish those as being true. Were the Popes Infallible?
These men are considered some of the fathers of the church in the period before the council of Nicea.
Polycarp was a bishop of Smyrna, a disciple of John and was martyred.
Clement of Rome was a prominent leader in the church at Rome, but I don't know he carried the title of pope.
Ignatius of Antioch was martyred in Rome, so I don't think he was a pope, either.
Hippolytus, was also a bishop in a church, and was martyred also.
Yes, but the Gospels having been written after the some of paul's letters can have the influence of his works. You see what I mean?
I do see what you mean. I understand the point, but I maintain the other apostles saw and heard from Jesus(pbuh) himself as witnesses. He was their source, not Paul. I also think the concept of the trinity causes a big stumbling block here. Let's forget the trinity concept for a moment. I still see the message as Jesus being the ultimate sacrifice in the writings in the gospels and elsewhere in the Bible.
I have read much about the errors in the Bible and the refutations. My understanding and belief is the errors are not things that change the basic message. That's probably the circle I was referring to that could be debated endlessly.
These men are considered some of the fathers of the church in the period before the council of Nicea.
Polycarp was a bishop of Smyrna, a disciple of John and was martyred.
Clement of Rome was a prominent leader in the church at Rome, but I don't know he carried the title of pope.
Ignatius of Antioch was martyred in Rome, so I don't think he was a pope, either.
Hippolytus, was also a bishop in a church, and was martyred also.
Peace
I'm going to have to hang my head in shame and stand corrected. Apparantly I did not pay much attention in Catechism class during my Catholic years
Here is a listing of the first few popes.
1. St. Peter (32-67)
2. St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
St. Clement I (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125) -- also called Xystus I
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
St. Callistus I (217-22)
St. Urban I (222-30)
I'm going to have to hang my head in shame and stand corrected. Apparantly I did not pay much attention in Catechism class during my Catholic years
Here is a listing of the first few popes.
1. St. Peter (32-67)
2. St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
St. Clement I (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125) -- also called Xystus I
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
St. Callistus I (217-22)
St. Urban I (222-30)
The only one I had right was Clement.
Well at least I'm not the only one that hangs his head occasionally. LOL
I knew you wanted this answer, so I posted it to get your reply. Notice that Christ said while He was in the grave ("Destroy this temple"), He was capable of bringing His body back to life ("and in three days I will raise it up").
I find it interesting that Muslims acknowledge that God can do miracles and that He is beyond our understanding, but when it comes to Jesus being the Son of God, God's actions must be within human understanding to be acceptable.
I knew you wanted this answer, so I posted it to get your reply.
You mean you were being devious and lied to get my reply. its okay dont worry you did not do anything wrong within the context of you religion for it is part of Paulean creed to be duplicitous (if you need any reference don't hesitate to ask and I'll provide them).
You mean you were being devious and lied to get my reply. its okay dont worry you did not do anything wrong within the context of you religion for it is part of Paulean creed to be duplicitous (if you need any reference don't hesitate to ask and I'll provide them).
Ma'asalaama
Would you say that when you posted the question you were sincerely asking to gain knowledge, or were you asking because you allready are convinced that Christians are misguided about the Trinity and you were seeking an opportunity to make your point? That is, was the question as devious as the you percieve the answer to be?
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