Re: Questions about Christians. Requesting answers from Christians. (OP)
Good afternoon everybody i'm sorry I never introduced myself and I didn't do to well with filling in the info about myself in registration. If I can I will edit it. Well you have my name but I failed to mention that I'm a Christian.
If you don't mind I would like to just say in response to the claims that my Muslim friends do believe in the original Bible and that it has been changed mostly by paul. The Quran & Allah does not back up this claim as in sura 2:4 allah takes credit for the Quran and sunnah and he also takes full credit for the torah & the Gospels which may I also add has been confirmed by historical findings such as the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint proving that the words of the Torah, Psalms, and Prophets did not change during the thousand years preceding Islam or in the fourteen hundred years since. And twenty-five thousand New Testament fragments and scrolls dating to more than five hundred years before the earliest surviving Quran testifying that the Gospels remain unaltered.
Godbless you mam'
you asked for the link (here it is, bare in mind that it was from 2004) Oh! and to the question how can Jesus be in Cairo? An attribute of God is a marvelous thing that Only the One True God has, its called Omnipresence. Its being where you are and being where I am at the same time without being more than one God. Its in the Old testament. In Psalm 139:7-12 Where can I go from your spirit? Or where can I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in hell, you are there. If I take the wings of the morning and settle at the farthest limits of the sea, even there your hand will lead me, and your right hand hold me fast. If I say, "Surely the darkness will cover me, and the light become night around me," even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is as bright as the day, for darkness and light are both alike to you.
Here is the link REMOVED CONTAINED SOME ANTI-ISLAMIC MATERIAL
May God Bless you all! Amen!!!!
Last edited by Woodrow; 02-06-2007 at 02:40 PM.
Reason: Edited sentence as the original is considered shirk by us Muslims.
Even the concept of breathing God's spirit into us made it into the Quran. This was the image that we have, our soul. That effects us in ways such as when we do something good to others we also feel good (heart warming moment). And when we do something wrong we feel guilt (heavy of heart).
"We have the law written on our hearts".
YEh
soul
1 : the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life
2 : the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe
im·age
1 : a reproduction or imitation of the form of a person or thing; especially : an imitation in solid form : STATUE
2 a : the optical counterpart of an object produced by an optical device (as a lens or mirror) or an electronic device b : a visual representation of something: as (1) : a likeness of an object produced on a photographic material (2) : a picture produced on an electronic display (as a television or computer screen)
How can the soul (immaterial essence) of man be in the image (optical counterpart) of Allah?
How can the soul (immaterial essence) of man be in the image (optical counterpart) of Allah?
Well, I would not have worded it as Yeh has done, but I will give you something to consider.
Is there any other being besides Allah that is able to know the difference between right and wrong, good and bad?
Hint: from a Christian perspective, this being is a creature created to live in communion with God.
Oh, and image does not have to mean an optical counterpart. The New Testament word which we translate into English as image was eikon. And as with all translation there is not a one to one correspondence between the Greek word and the English word.
eikon derived from eoika which has a present force, meaning to be similar, like. Examples include things that you might think of as images: paintings, statues, the figure stamped on a coin. But a comparison or a similie was also an "image"; indeed any sort of likeness or semblance qualified. The key is that in Greek thought the image shares the reality of what it represents. This is one reason that idols are contrary to God's law, for not only in the Greek language, but also in Jewish thought the essence of the thing appears in the image. Thus if one created an idol to represent a god (i.e. the idols of Baal), then the god himself was present and operative in his image.
But of course no image could ever bear the full reality of God. So, people were not to make them. Then how could man be called the "image of God"? The answer, man was not made by man, but by God. And indeed this term is used several times in Genesis. It is a part of the created order that God so bestows this on human kind. Theologian Gerald vonRad put it this way, "God set man in the world as a sign of his own authority, in order that man should uphold his -- God's -- claims as Lord." While most of us fail to fully submit to God in this way, Christ did submit. Thus the New Testament talks about Christ as the image of likeness of God. In Christ there is no difference between the image and the essence of the invisible God. (Note: If there were any difference, Jews and Muslims would not have to worry about Christians talking about a Trinity. It is only because there is no difference that we make claims that you think of as nonsense--or worse.) Thus in Christ we see God. And though sinned marred this image of God that men were created in, by our participating in Christ, people are once more able to express the image of God which has been restored in them. That is not to make us equal with God, for we only have this image as it is made available to us in Christ. But once again we gain knowledge of the difference between right and wrong (through the Holy Spirit actually dwelling in us) and we are able to have communion with God in and through Jesus Christ in whose image we have been transformed.
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 05-06-2007 at 04:34 AM.
Even the concept of breathing God's spirit into us made it into the Quran. This was the image that we have, our soul. That effects us in ways such as when we do something good to others we also feel good (heart warming moment). And when we do something wrong we feel guilt (heavy of heart).
Not quite. It refers to a soul that belongs to God, not His actual soul in the same way humans have a soul.
eikon derived from eoika which has a present force, meaning to be similar, like. Examples include things that you might think of as images: paintings, statues, the figure stamped on a coin. But a comparison or a similie was also an "image"; indeed any sort of likeness or semblance qualified. The key is that in Greek thought the image shares the reality of what it represents. .... But of course no image could ever bear the full reality of God. So, people were not to make them. Then how could man be called the "image of God"? The answer, man was not made by man, but by God. And indeed this term is used several times in Genesis. It is a part of the created order that God so bestows this on human kind. Theologian Gerald vonRad put it this way, "God set man in the world as a sign of his own authority, in order that man should uphold his -- God's -- claims as Lord." While most of us fail to fully submit to God in this way, Christ did submit. Thus the New Testament talks about Christ as the image of likeness of God. In Christ there is no difference between the image and the essence of the invisible God. .... Thus in Christ we see God.
Yes, you put forth a very good explanation. However, to Muslims this is treading on very thin ice. We hold that Allah is above his creation and just as He bears no semblance to it, His creation bears no semblance to Him. When one says that something or someone bears a "likeness of God" then there is a tendency to worship that thing or person. The ending of your post demonstrates to Muslims where we see Christianity has erred. In contrast, Muslims are strict monotheists and refuse to associate anything or anyone with Allah.
The ending of your post demonstrates to Muslims where we see Christianity has erred.
I don't expect Muslims to agree with my Christian theology, but I am thinking that when you ask questions about it, that you truly want to understand where it comes from. So I feel obligated to share it to the best of my ability -- at least to inform, even if not to persuade.
So, I don't mind you saying that I have erred. I just don't want you to err in understanding what we are saying (or sometimes not saying).
I don't expect Muslims to agree with my Christian theology, but I am thinking that when you ask questions about it, that you truly want to understand where it comes from. So I feel obligated to share it to the best of my ability -- at least to inform, even if not to persuade.
So, I don't mind you saying that I have erred. I just don't want you to err in understanding what we are saying (or sometimes not saying).
The image analogy was explanied very well and, perhaps, I agree with it to a point. As always, I understand your points as you do explain the Christian perspective extremely well. Even as you present the Truth (as you believe it to be) as honestly and accurately as you can, we too present our perspective. I don't intend to offend, but I too feel obligated to share my understanding of the Truth as clearly as possible to avoid misunderstanding.
Dialog with you is very beneficial to this forum because you definitely increase our understanding of Christianity. Hopefully, you and others are gaining an understanding of Islam. Mutual understanding is a good thing.
Theologian Gerald vonRad put it this way, "God set man in the world as a sign of his own authority, in order that man should uphold his -- God's -- claims as Lord." While most of us fail to fully submit to God in this way, Christ did submit.
I agree with this statement. In the Quran the conceptual word is translated as vicegerent -"one appointed by a ruler or head of state to act as administrative deputy." And, yes, Jesus (pbuh) did submit his will to God. In this sense he and Muhammad (pbut) are our role models - held in highest esteem.
It's a parallel and a prophecy. That's how prophecy is written in accient Hebrew.
It is pretty simple right there, the verse is speaking of Israel, there is no mention of this is also going to happen to someone else, nothing as such, but the author of Matthew uses part of the verse leaving Israel out of it, and uses it and claims this was a prophecy of Jesus. The evidence is clear for any person who is willing to use their mind.
As for the commentry, it is merely an understanding of deriving the words of the author of Matthew.
If you show me where Hosea claimed it was a prophecy then that'd be cool, but the overwhelming evidence is clear, the Author of Matthew is presenting Jesus as a prophecy fulfulling man, in his zeal he quotes half a verse, leaving out the context, and claims it is a prophecy which Jesus fulfilled.
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
You may not see the difference in what I'm about to say, but that is my problem with not being able to express myself well, not in your understanding. Nonetheless I want to try.
I don't think God is anything like us either. As you said, we are his creation. But I do think that we are something like God. (I'm not creating any status of divinity to us.) That is, there is created within us something that God himself did that makes us intrinsically different than the rest of the animal creation. And that difference is the image of God in which each of us are created.
Of course in saying that we are something like God, it is on the order of saying that a raindrop is like the ocean. Or that a blade of grass is like the prairie. And even that is giving too much credit to the raindrop or the blade of grass. Because you don't just multiply us by a million, billion times to come up with God. In that sense we have to remember that we are created beings, and God is the creator. But what I mean is that God put something of himself within us. That is why we have a soul and animals don't. We can connect with God; no other created being can do that. It is the image of God created within us that makes this even possible.
And, as an aside, I think this is why atheists exist. They have had this image so marred that they no longer experience that connection. But, now I come close to getting off topic again.
From my view point this is not true, but I see what you mean. But then again we don't have Aadam's Spirit, God breathed into Aadam, that became Aadam#s spirit/soul, but our soul is different to Aadam's.
Last edited by Umar001; 05-07-2007 at 08:04 PM.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
From my view point this is not true, but I see what you mean. But then again we don't have Aadam's Spirit, God breathed into Aadam, that became Aadam#s spirit/soul, but our soul is different to Aadam's.
God doesn't have to literally breath into each of our nostrils his Spirit. Take the creation of land animals:
And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. (Genesis 1:24)
Once created, each is able to produce others of its own kind. God does not have to continually have the "land produce living creatures". They have the abiltiy to reproduce that aspect in them which God created to be true of them.
Similary God creates people:
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them. (Genesis 1:26-27)
And these people have the ability to reproduce according the pattern in which God made them, and part of that pattern we are told is that we are created in God's image. Thus, all persons were to likewise be created in God's image, not just Adam. (For instance we can see that both Adam and Eve were created in God's image, even though we are only told that God blew his spirit into Adam, not Eve.)
Also, long after Adam has died, in the times of Noah, we find God reminding the people (assumedly all people, certainly not Adam since he has already died):
Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man. (Genesis 9:6)
Of course, I know that you are still going to disagree, as your stories of creation and the first generations, though close, do not match these. But I am glad that you can see from whence my thoughts come.
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