To the Christian the Trinity is one God. To the Muslim they are three Gods. To the Christians they are three persons that make one God. To the Muslims that is not possible. Who can explain this? Can it be explained? If we could convince people that God is three persons, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost or just one (Allah) would that solve the bloody trails that have happened over the centuries through religious wars? Are we caught in a spiritual war with truth and deception? Will we learn from the past? We have one Creator who made the Christians and the Muslim persons. We are brothers in humanity. We come from the same creator who is God the Almighty. There is no one like Him. He is the Creator of heaven and earth. His creation brings Him glory. God is alive. He is not dead. He sees the thousands of years of wars over His name. Will He stop this soon? We can't stop it. We need God to do it. Why can't Christians and Muslims pray that God stop this? Don't we collectively make up the greatest of worlds religions and only one of these can be right. We know all other faiths are small and weak compared to the most powerful Creator of the worlds. We know that God is all-powerful. We know that He can intervene. What if all the Christians and Muslims agree on a day to fast and pray that God bring about a revival of truth so that all blinders will be off on this Islamic forum? Questions, questions and more questions????????
Hav you ever heard of unitarians,they existed far longer than trinitarians..
I submit to you that Peter was a Trinitarian, now please name a Unitarian before Peter.
Zilkiflim, I'm reposting this in case you care to respond to it. Philosopher did respond in a long post that I couldn't see how it related to either one of our comments nor to the topic in general. So, I thought maybe you would care to speak for yourself?
Zilkiflim, I'm reposting this in case you care to respond to it. Philosopher did respond in a long post that I couldn't see how it related to either one of our comments nor to the topic in general. So, I thought maybe you would care to speak for yourself?
Salaam,
Well after all the deletion i cant recall what they main argument was about..
If we could convince people that God is three persons, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost or just one (Allah) would that solve the bloody trails that have happened over the centuries through religious wars?
Hmmm.. The important point u have left is u consider Jesus as God(ie accordin to u the three persons, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost)...
Hmmm.. The important point u have left is u consider Jesus as God(ie accordin to u the three persons, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost)...
Why didn't you say I consider Him the Son of God? You didn't understand my question: I asked what if you suddenly realized that it is possible for God to be one yet consist of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? What if you could see that Jesus is Allah's word made into flesh as a man and the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit?? If you could see this, then you would know what we see as Christians.
By the way, the Qur'an misrepresents Biblical Christianity. It bases its assumptions on Catholicism, because no where in the Bible does it state that followers of Christ are to include Mary as deity or part of the trinity. Remember, we do not see God as one in three gods. We see Him as one substance yet three persons, and contrary to the Qur'an, Mary is not part of it.
I posted this first (now deleted) in the 'Bible' thread, which is where you will find MustafaMc's post, but it is more appropriate here;
The "muslim view" is not one as to what Christians believe, it is an interpretation of what that belief is based on.
The most that can be true, surely, is that the doctrine of the Trinity could be interpreted in polytheistic terms? If the Christians themselves do not interpret it that way, then their belief must be monotheistic, not polytheistic. The "muslim view" is therefore something of an irrelevance; it amounts to no more than an interpretation of Christian doctrine that is not accepted by Christians. It is of no more importance to Christians than a Christian interpretation of the Qur'an not accepted by muslims would be to muslims, i.e none.
a lot of what you say is truth. But i think it does have an impact more so on them what our view is of the Qur'an than what their view is of the trinity. As I have mentioned, the Qur'an misrepresents Biblical Christianity. It bases its assumptions on Catholicism, because no where in the Bible does it state that followers of Christ are to include Mary as deity or part of the trinity. Remember, we do not see God as one in three gods like they say we do (cause their only form of reference is the Qur'an). We see Him as one substance and yet in three persons. Contrary to the Qur'an, Mary is not part of it. We see Jesus as the word of God which became flesh, and we see God as a Spirit; therefore, He is the Holy Spirit. There is only ONE God. It is not our job to explain how this is possible. With man this is not possible, but with God all things are possible.
had you any manners (or indeed any knowledge) you would have answered my question instead of alway talking what rhyms with bullspit
alapiana1
Originally Posted by NoName55 ^^ my new signature is for you
By the way, the Qur'an misrepresents Biblical Christianity. It bases its assumptions on Catholicism, because no where in the Bible does it state that followers of Christ are to include Mary as deity or part of the trinity. Remember, we do not see God as one in three gods. We see Him as one substance yet three persons, and contrary to the Qur'an, Mary is not part of it.
NoName55 which came first after Paul and sun-god constantine; Catholicism or your particular version?
how do you trace your creed back to Paul if not thru Rome?
.. and Catholics worship Mary. And a god is 'one who is worthy of worship'. so they take Mary as a god.
Catholics do not 'worship' Mary. They venerate her, honour her and show devotion to both her and other Saints. They would agree with you that only God is 'worthy of worship'.
Catholics do not 'worship' Mary. They venerate her, honour her and show devotion to both her and other Saints. They would agree with you that only God is 'worthy of worship'.
Hello, I was brought up a catholic and was certainly taught to pray to her statue, praise her and ask her for things. what else do you call that? it is certainly not right to put her on a par with 'other saints'.
The whole month of May was devoted to the worship of Mary in my (& all other catholic) schools.
Hello, I was brought up a catholic and was certainly taught to pray to her statue, praise her and ask her for things. what else do you call that? it is certainly not right to put her on a par with 'other saints'.
I call it veneration, and not 'worship', although I agree with your last point; I phrased that badly. Exactly the same is true of many traditional Buddhist practices in some cultures, that are (incorrectly) interpreted as 'worshipping' the Buddha. I did a quick google and found this, which seems to make the Catholic position clear, Do Catholics Worship Mary?
A question for you; did you perceive your 'worship' of Mary as being that appropriate to a god?
A question for you; did you perceive your 'worship' of Mary as being that appropriate to a god?
we were constantly and enthusiastically told by the nuns that Mary was the 'mother of God' and therefore so 'special' and 'unique' and 'high status' and so on and on. If anyone told you 'here is God your creator, pray to Him and ask Him for whatever you want, and by the way this here is His mother, you can pray to her for whatever you want too' what do you think they are trying to tell you? what would you think, if you were to take them at their word? If anyone questioned anything, or tried to 'tie down' a doctrine to a definite position, they were given short shrift.
when I prayed to Mary, I believed I was praying to the 'Mother of God'. I can't give you any further explanations of it than that. I believe polytheism means praying to someone other than God, and asking them for things and so on. I suppose someone can say 'well I pray to (whoever) and I 'venerate' them and I believe they have power to give me what I ask - but I don't worship them' - well they are deluding themselves.
By the way, the Qur'an misrepresents Biblical Christianity. It bases its assumptions on Catholicism, because no where in the Bible does it state that followers of Christ are to include Mary as deity or part of the trinity. Remember, we do not see God as one in three gods. We see Him as one substance yet three persons, and contrary to the Qur'an, Mary is not part of it.
From my perspective, Catholics worship Mary (hail Mary, statues, etc) and they call her the Mother of God while Protestants worship Jesus (rely upon him to save them from their sins) and they call him the Son of God. It is readily apparent to Muslims for anyone to call a human as God, or Son of God, or Mother of God as blasphemously ascribing partners with the One God. This is despite the good intentions of Christians to be monotheistic.
last time I looked Catholics were in the majority (by a long way) in the Christian world. and Catholics worship Mary. And a god is 'one who is worthy of worship'. so they take Mary as a god.
I agree. Another point is that Christianity has changed considerably since the Quran was revealed, particularly the Protestant Reformation led by Martin Luther in 1500's. Wikipedia "Church beliefs and practices under attack by Protestant reformers included purgatory, particular judgment, devotion to Mary, the intercession of the saints, most of the sacraments, and the authority of the Pope." BTW there were no Baptist or Methodists in 600 A.D.
This echoes the polytheists in Makkah who oppressed the Prophet during the birth of Islam. They did not outrightly reject Allah, but their sin was to set up partners for Him with whom they worship. They were saying that Hubal, Al-Lat and Uzza had the right for devotion alongside Allah.
That Muhammad said these idols made by their own hands, were powerless, enraged them and made them obstinate against the Message of Islam and the testification of faith, Laa ilaha il Allah, There is no deity worthy of worship but Allah.
'Devote' or 'worship' really makes no difference. Let us call a black kettle, black. We Muslims do not suffer the mental illness of seeing 1 as 3 or 3 as 1.
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If you could see this, then you would know what we see as Christians.
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?
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