To the Christian the Trinity is one God. To the Muslim they are three Gods. To the Christians they are three persons that make one God. To the Muslims that is not possible. Who can explain this? Can it be explained? If we could convince people that God is three persons, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost or just one (Allah) would that solve the bloody trails that have happened over the centuries through religious wars? Are we caught in a spiritual war with truth and deception? Will we learn from the past? We have one Creator who made the Christians and the Muslim persons. We are brothers in humanity. We come from the same creator who is God the Almighty. There is no one like Him. He is the Creator of heaven and earth. His creation brings Him glory. God is alive. He is not dead. He sees the thousands of years of wars over His name. Will He stop this soon? We can't stop it. We need God to do it. Why can't Christians and Muslims pray that God stop this? Don't we collectively make up the greatest of worlds religions and only one of these can be right. We know all other faiths are small and weak compared to the most powerful Creator of the worlds. We know that God is all-powerful. We know that He can intervene. What if all the Christians and Muslims agree on a day to fast and pray that God bring about a revival of truth so that all blinders will be off on this Islamic forum? Questions, questions and more questions????????
btw, the example that people give with H20, same thing is with this, they are all files, but their form is different, one is a zip file, the other is just a text file. you can't edit a zip file with Notepad which they are not the same. you can try to put some water gass on the glass and put some coffe and drink it it's really good . i've tried it.
Actually I've thought about asking Muslims this same question. What image comes to your mind when you think of God? An old man with a beard sitting on a throne? Because to a Christian the Almighty power that is God cannot be placed into a box so as to be easily understood by the human mind. Sometimes I feel that Muslims are so obsessed with concentrating on God being One, which of course we both agree on, that they miss the point altogether. God obviously has many ways of interacting and manifesting Himself in our world and in our minds. The possibilities are obviously limitless. To answer your questions though....
What is God? That is obviously impossible to describe using the written word. Almighty Creator, Lord, the One God. As for what image comes to mind, for me personally I don't really have an image in mind....definately not Sean Connery.
What image comes to mind when speaking of the Son? Of course there are millions of paintings and images of Christ as he was imagined by artists and worshippers. Most of us know that his true physical image was never captured, so all we can do is imagine how He might have looked during His time on Earth. If you are referring to the Son in the spiritual sense, it again goes back to our image of God, which is impossible to describe or put into a box.
As for the Holy Spirit, Jesus described it as a Comforter. The translation from Greek means literally breath or air. Sometimes described as the aspect of God immanent in this world, in people, and in the church.
Yeh but you believe that jesus is the son of god, that is abit like 'what!'
When jesus died did apart of god die aswel?
WAG1 PEEPS
The Prophet said: 'None of you is truly a believer until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.' (Sahîh Muslim)
To Christians, Jesus is God. God loves us so much that He came down to Earth and lived as a man, just so that He could die for our sins.
To Muslims, this is outright blasphemy!
Jesus is the Son of God, and was a man, but he is also God the Father. Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit together make up God. This is monotheism, it may be complicated, but it is the truth. Simplicity is not an indicator of truth.
I don't see how anyine gets "monotheism" from this or any other Christian explanation.
The flesh will wither and cruble but the soul remian.
But the soul is not divine.
Angels will last till the end days,,but they are not divine..
Satan will last till the end days,,,but they are not divine
Divinity is ONLY ONE...
I was addressing mortal vs. immortallity. You said that one could not be both. I showed that they could. And that is in a human being, not a divine being.
Just as you have in the human being a union of spirit and flesh, so you can have that in a divine being. Jesus is 100% God and 100% man, both at the same time. I don't have to prove it to you, anymore than I have to prove that my cat has four legs, I just observe that to be true by seeing and then counting them. I observe Jesus to have two natures (one divine, one human) by seeing them in scripture and then counting them.
At your option, you can distrust what I say, and come and count my cats legs for yourself. And if you distrust me with regard to Christ you can also read the scriptures for yourself to see what they say.
Of course, if you go to another source and use that as your reference, perhaps the three-legged cat running down your street or the Qur'an, you just might doubt me because the source of information that you use to determine what is the truth will be different than mine.
None. Jesus was not an earthly father to any children since He was not married and He did not father any children out of wedlock.
The Trinity consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all of Whom are of one essence, substance, and nature, namely, Deity. They are the ONE true God. The three are indeed three distinct, separate entities, but together make up the ONE God. They are separate and distinct in the sense that the Son died on the cross, not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world; the Son did not send the Father or the Holy Spirit to be the Savior of the world. The Holy Spirit was sent by the Father and the Son to do His special work, not vice versa. etc., etc. So they are in that sense separate and distinct, but they are the ONE God.
Having a mother was how God made the Word flesh (John 1:14). Presumably He could have used a direct act of creation of Jesus' physical body, as in, "Let there be a physical body" and poof, there would be a man's body the Word could inhabit. But that is not how God did it. NO, to your second question.
Yes. It placed Jesus' earthly mother in a position of authority over the child and young person and young man, Jesus, for the period He was subject and obedient to her, as any Jewish boy should be to his mother. See Luke 2:51.
Your point?
Peace
Your point?
Just my round about way of trying to arrive at an understanding of things that confuse me.
Your replies do have me contemplating over 2 points in particular.
These 2 replies are:
The Trinity consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all of Whom are of one essence, substance, and nature, namely, Deity. They are the ONE true God. The three are indeed three distinct, separate entities, but together make up the ONE God. They are separate and distinct in the sense that the Son died on the cross, not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world; the Son did not send the Father or the Holy Spirit to be the Savior of the world. The Holy Spirit was sent by the Father and the Son to do His special work, not vice versa. etc., etc. So they are in that sense separate and distinct, but they are the ONE God.
Yes. It placed Jesus' earthly mother in a position of authority over the child and young person and young man, Jesus, for the period He was subject and obedient to her, as any Jewish boy should be to his mother. See Luke 2:51.
These are what I see as major issues between Muslims and Christians. At the moment I am simply reflecting on your replies and how I can best address them, with dignity and not in any offensive manner.
Now how this relates to the trinity? To me it offers some insight into why Christians view the Trinity as being one God and also why we as Muslims believe different.
Forget about the date but what about moral of the story ?
If Christians believe Priests are above having children , then how come u can believe God has begotten son ?
The date is important, as it clearly shows the story was an invention and not a true event.
In truth, only some Christians believe that priests should not have children, and no Christians believe that priests are above having children. The reason that those who do not have children have chosen not to is for other reasons than the story implies.
Muhammed saws has already proven that it is possible to be married and dedicate him/her self to the Lord. Even if we go and take a very pious muslim who reached the level of Ikhsaan, he is married and still the only thing he is preoccupied is his Lord, or or or let's take Abu Hanifa, he is one of the greatest scholars, who dedicated his life for Allah swt, those who know him know how much he contributed , and he was stilled married
Sorry
And many protestant ministers are married. That doesn't mean that we don't sometimes have difficult decisions to make. This happened to me just 1 week ago.
Our wedding anniversary was on a Sunday. We wanted to celebrate it, but I had to preach that morning. Fine, plenty of people work on the day of their wedding anniversay, I could too. We also had an evening service, but we could go out and have a nice lunch together. So, that was the plan.
I walked into the house after church to put some things away while my wife waited for me in the car, I saw that we had a message on the answering machine and thought it was probably a call wishing us a Happy Anniversary from one of our kids. It wasn't. A teenager, a senior scheduled to graduate that afternoon, had died overngiht. We live in a very small town (5000 people) and thus a small school with a small graduating class where everyone knows each other. The principal was calling the pastors in town to ask us if we could be there to provide counseling for the kids who might not even learn about this tragedy until they arrived for what is usually a great big celebration. This time there would be a lot of unexpected grief to deal with. Could I meet with him at the school at 1:00 PM? It was 12:50 PM.
So, now I have a choice. I cannot be both husband and pastor at this particular point in time. I have to choose one over the other. And, your illustrations not withstanding, some people simply choose in advance that they want to avoid having to make that choice later as I had to on this occassion.
Excellent Phil, that is a great summary. I believe your points 8 & 9 give a full explanation as to why we can not agree. In accordance with the Bible point 8 is true. In accordance with the Qur'an point 9 is true.
I firmly believe the Qur'an is the truth and that for me to follow Christianity would be the path to Hellfire. I know I can no more convince you the Qur'an is the truth, than you can convince me that the Bible is true. All I can do is Thank Allah(swt) that I was lead away from the Bible and to the Qur'an. I know you are probably Thanking God(swt) that you have the Bible.
There can be no mutual acceptance over the Trinity. The best we can do as Muslims and Christians is disagree in peace.
So, are we willing to allow each some degree of peace?
I don't object to the differences in opinion, but lately it seems like everyone is trying to make converts of the other.
I actually agree with that motivation, too. But I think it is misplaced if we think we are going to be effective in trying to do so by attacks on an internet forum, rather than seeking to know each other as individuals and learning to live in peaceful relationships with each other first. And then lead rather than push each other to explore the faith we wish to share with them.
Dear Gene
this is an Islamic forum, with the purpose of teaching and giving du3wa to all who seek it, I assume those who have come here, have done so freely on their own accord? be that as it may, I haven't seen any Muslim member actively trying to convert anyone, at least not to the level where they are invading people's inboxes with a barrage of tasteless testimonies and articles-- what I find not only offensive but down right insolent, is some of the louder of your "Christian" bros, who not only come here to offend, but purposefully, lie and mislead Muslims (and it really is a futile effort) unless one is fickle to begin with-- No Muslim who has willingly, consciously and freely accepted Islam, would consider again becoming a Christian-- so why do some who shall remain nameless try oh so incredibly hard? It comes across as desperate, and pathetic, wasteful of everyone's time and down right irritating!
To pose a sincere question with the intent of learning is one thing, to quote laughable articles from questionable missionary websites is another. When that is the case, I don't think anyone should make an intercession on another's behalf, because I personally will down right rip into them...
peace!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
..... Especially when Muhammad had doubted his own revelations, which started the Islam religion. He even thought the source of it was demonic in nature and that he was demon possessed. ....
One of his most devoted wives was Aishah who he married at six years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old. Imagine if she was your daughter.
Muslims respect Jesus (p) & some Christians take advantage of it. U know that we won’t attack Jesus (p) or any other Biblical Prophets (pbut ) ; so u r writing freely against our respected Prophet .
I don’t understand how it’s possible that in an Islamic forum , one can write such a negative post against the Last Prophet (p) .
I wouldn't consent to my daughter's hand in marraige at six years old.
- Yap sure ; early marriage is prohibited by man’s law & we see thousands & thousands young unmarried mothers in the west.
-
- So many young girls are having illegal married lives with unlimited husbands …... School girls going to abortion clinics . LOL
How many times do we have to tell u that this was a blessed marriage ? In Islam ,no one is forcing any parent or daughter to say yes to a marriage proposal.
.
No one forced Aisha ( ra ) to marry the Prophet (p) . She was already engaged at that time but that man did not accept Islam & the marriage broke by her father.
When God gave permission to Wives of the Prophet to choose if they want divorce , it was Mother Aisha (ra ) who first declared that she wishes to stay with him. Who forced her to say so ?
Early marriage was very common ---still common in many parts of the world.
Sis PurestAmbrosia already posted in one state, Delaware, USA the age of consent was only seven.
Prophet David (p) married a young virgin when he was at death bed. Do Christians bash the Prophet for that or God scolded him ?
Pl. don’t provoke us unneccasarily.
verses of the Day :
Surah 3. The Family Of 'Imran, The House Of 'Imran
Fear the Fire, which is prepared for those who reject Faith:
And obey Allah and the Messenger. that ye may obtain mercy.
Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous,- ( 3: 131-133)
Say: "O People of the Book!
come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but God
that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God."
If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to God’s Will).
3: 64
Last edited by Muslim Woman; 05-31-2007 at 01:00 AM.
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
Dear Gene
this is an Islamic forum, with the purpose of teaching and giving du3wa to all who seek it, I assume those who have come here, have done so freely on their own accord? be that as it may, I haven't seen any Muslim member actively trying to convert anyone, at least not to the level where they are invading people's inboxes with a barrage of tasteless testimonies and articles-- what I find not only offensive but down right insolent, is some of the louder of your "Christian" bros, who not only come here to offend, but purposefully, lie and mislead Muslims (and it really is a futile effort) unless one is fickle to begin with-- No Muslim who has willingly, consciously and freely accepted Islam, would consider again becoming a Christian-- so why do some who shall remain nameless try oh so incredibly hard? It comes across as desperate, and pathetic, wasteful of everyone's time and down right irritating!
To pose a sincere question with the intent of learning is one thing, to quote laughable articles from questionable missionary websites is another. When that is the case, I don't think anyone should make an intercession on another's behalf, because I personally will down right rip into them...
peace!
I can respect that view. And my post wasn't to point figures are any one in particular. Though if you were to ask me, I think the proselytizing has been going pretty good both directions lately. We Christians who come here have to remember that this forum has some rules that we agreed to respect. And those few Muslims who challenge Christian beliefs by asserting that Muslims have a monopoly on the truth and that we Christians are going to hell (yes, some posts are that direct) have to understand that this does invite a response, not all of which will be to eveyone's liking.
And if you wanted to post something which in effect said: Ditto. But in reverse. I could also understand where you were coming from.
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 05-31-2007 at 12:01 AM.
I don't think anyone is funneling traffic to heaven or hell, I find it just as absurd for a Christian to write that they are saved w/out standing trial. These are beliefs on a very personal level. And I find it a great transgression to pass that sort of judgment or assert that sort of guarantee, who are we defying? ! I believe I have quoted suret Az zalzala enough times to display that the day of judgment is about justice, not favoritism. There is no bribery when it comes to G-D, Allah is exalted above these human traits. Look at how the human body works when under a state of Acidosis or Alkalosis, how it tries to achieve balance and homeostasis, justice for the body so to speak, not compromising one organ over another, it is brilliant and harmonious, it is minute measure of G-D's ingenuity-- he who created it in that form, surely understand the human mind, psyche and the human condition!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I don't think anyone is funneling traffic to heaven or hell, I find it just as absurd for a Christian to write that they are saved w/out standing trial. These are beliefs on a very personal level. And I find it a great transgression to pass that sort of judgment or assert that sort of guarantee, who are we defying? ! I believe I have quoted suret Az zalzala enough times to display that the day of judgment is about justice, not favoritism. There is no bribery when it comes to G-D, Allah is exalted above these human traits. Look at how the human body works when under a state of Acidosis or Alkalosis, how it tries to achieve balance and homeostasis, justice for the body so to speak, not compromising one organ over another, it is brilliant and harmonious, it is minute measure of G-D's ingenuity-- he who created it in that form, surely understand the human mind, psyche and the human condition!
There is much in creation that can teach us about God. But we have to be careful that we don't imply that by knowing creation that we know God. To make the leap (which you haven't necessarily done) from observing our human bodies as being created so harmoniously in balance and to then infer from that fact that God must therefore desire balance in all things, including this plan of salvation, seems to be to be an unwise inference.
Imagine if one was a student of fractual geometry and observed those patterns repeated in nature and the human body, and how it occurs on both the macro, micro, and even sub-atomic scale what one might infer about God from it?
It is important to let God reveal God's self to us. His creation should awaken us to an awareness of his presence, but it doesn't necessarily follow that it informs us with regard to his nature.
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 05-30-2007 at 05:22 PM.
So, are we willing to allow each some degree of peace?
I believe most of us want that.
But, I think that we all have to remember, that each of us has very strong emotional feelings about our beliefs and we all have to accept the fact that at times we may speak first out of feeling and not verifiable fact. In other words we need to be forgiving of each others emotionalism at times.
I don't object to the differences in opinion, but lately it seems like everyone is trying to make converts of the other.
That is definetly happening. Even myself as a Muslim who believes there should be no compulsion, has been partaking of the pleasures of Evangelical rushes. Thank you for the reminder. We all need to avoid doing that.
I actually agree with that motivation, too. But I think it is misplaced if we think we are going to be effective in trying to do so by attacks on an internet forum, rather than seeking to know each other as individuals and learning to live in peaceful relationships with each other first. And then lead rather than push each other to explore the faith we wish to share with them.
All I would like to add to that is sharing has to be done with the attitude of sharing knowledge and not as a weapon/threat to demand the other person accepts it.
I never stated anything about the nature of G-D, in fact if anything I have maintained all throughout is that this sort of Anthropomorphism that many attribute to him is unbefitting.!
what I have stated however is that sophistication can be observed in the most minute of his creation, and I have no doubt that by the same token the day of judgement should not be brought down to this lowest common denominator --a simpleton view of not having to withstand judgement because G-D has sent a son who is a sin eater and in doing so has spared at least the portion of humanity, that accepts that as a fact, no matter how evil their deeds.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
All I would like to add to that is sharing has to be done with the attitude of sharing knowledge and not as a weapon/threat to demand the other person accepts it.
Can I share my wish that perhaps you might find in the conversation with different Christians here than those you learned about the faith from when you were younger new insights that lead you to reconsider the reasons you previously left it? Or my hope that such reconsideration might even lead to a reawakening of the possibility of having a relationship with God in and through Jesus Christ?
I never stated anything about the nature of G-D, in fact if anything I have maintained all throughout is that this sort of Anthropomorphism that many attribute to him is unbefitting.!
what I have stated however is that sophistication can be observed in the most minute of his creation, and I have no doubt that by the same token the day of judgement should not be brought down to this lowest common denominator --a simpleton view of not having to withstand judgement because G-D has sent a son who is a sin eater and in doing so has spared at least the portion of humanity, that accepts that as a fact, no matter how evil their deeds.
I think you just called me a simpleton.
If so, so be it. While I value sophistication in many things, that doesn't mean that I only value sophistification. It is interesting that you have distilled Christiantiy down to such a simply worded concept as "sin-eater", though I had never thought of it in those terms before, I can live with it nonetheless. Thank-you for simplifying it for me.
While it is true that to get a degree one needs to study and pass a test. And if being admitted to Jannah is like being admitted to the Bar to practice law, then this is a good analogy. But if being admitted to heaven is like being claimed as a member of God's family, then it has no relevance, for parents don't ask their children to do anything to become their children. They are automatically children by being born into it, or in other cases adopted into it. In the case of adoption, the judge makes that decision and it is done, no tests to pass, you just are. (And as regards the law of adoption, I speak from personal family knowledge.)
So, as on many other things, our views as to what we even mean by salvation, though we both use the same word, change the way we view what is and is not reasonable with regard to the process. For Muslims a test seems to be obligatory. For Christians a test would be anathema.
Ok let's use your analogy, if your dad is some kind of secret agent which is responsible for a thing that is held on a room, you as his son, do you get the right to enter in that place just bc it's your dad? no, you don't. even you are his son, he is the only one to access that room. So just bc you are his son does not change anything. Nor that you can get PhD bc your dad has one. You are their son, but u still need to workout . You can;t take human birth on a family as an analogy and not continue further. If you take the birth , you have to take it to the end. So if you are born within a family , you don't get the rights all the right just bc you were born in that family. How about the possibility that people leave their son/daughter on the hospital?? or somebody steals the kid, a muslim ?? where is the security of receving this "gift"???
I understand you have your opinions , and I have my opinions, but you and me have to work, we're not gonna recieve any such 'gift' as just believe and everything is done for us, this is a trick of Shaitan trying to lead people away from God, if God did a 'sacrifice' then why are we living anymore? why not justed asked a question and finish, and go to heaven??? we see that we live in a quite long period of time (depending to us), somebody 10 years, soemone 50 years, someone 80 years, all these years are just a space so you fill it with the answers to the tests you recieve, you are not going to finish 80 years of life with just a 'gift',by answering a yes or no question. No. Life is just a test, so the other world is a reward for those who passed the test. I'm sorry to say cuz you might be older than me, with all my respect, but don't be fooled with this type of tricks.
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 475: Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ashari:
The Prophet said, "None is more patient than Allah against the harmful and annoying words He hears (from the people): They ascribe children to Him, yet He bestows upon them health and provision .
still Allah swt leaves options to u to think and reflect upon the signs. If I would be helping a person, and one day that person would tell a lie about me to the whole world that "I am an homosexual", I would be offended and and probably say to him "go away, i don't want to talk to u and i'm not gonna help u anymore", so would you and everyone else behave like this, most of the time. It's a common human nature. but u see Allah swt for centuries (of our time) has been watching people, and they have ascribed different types of partners to him, yet he bestowed mercy upon them, just by giving theem Oxygen, it's enough to reflect on the mercy of Allah swt.
And many protestant ministers are married. That doesn't mean that we don't sometimes have difficult decisions to make. This happened to me just 1 week ago.
Our wedding anniversary was on a Sunday. We wanted to celebrate it, but I had to preach that morning. Fine, plenty of people work on the day of their wedding anniversay, I could too. We also had an evening service, but we could go out and have a nice lunch together. So, that was the plan.
I walked into the house after church to put some things away while my wife waited for me in the car, I saw that we had a message on the answering machine and thought it was probably a call wishing us a Happy Anniversary from one of our kids. It wasn't. A teenager, a senior scheduled to graduate that afternoon, had died overngiht. We live in a very small town (5000 people) and thus a small school with a small graduating class where everyone knows each other. The principal was calling the pastors in town to ask us if we could be there to provide counseling for the kids who might not even learn about this tragedy until they arrived for what is usually a great big celebration. This time there would be a lot of unexpected grief to deal with. Could I meet with him at the school at 1:00 PM? It was 12:50 PM.
So, now I have a choice. I cannot be both husband and pastor at this particular point in time. I have to choose one over the other. And, your illustrations not withstanding, some people simply choose in advance that they want to avoid having to make that choice later as I had to on this occassion.
Hey you got wedding anniversary .
Well in one way you told us that you were able to be dedicated for both, so your statement at the end that you cannot do both is wrong, bc u can do, and you already did one.
but as for being not married, to be 24 hours in the service of Lord, that's extreme.
Allah swt has taught us through His Messenger saws, how to live a life , a normal life where everything has its own right. what do I mean. we know that praying is a very important aspect in muslim's life, but praying all day, and doing nothing else, leaving the family without any income, not do any job, etc. is wrong. Prayer is very good, but it has its limits. That's why in Islam even sleep, is an ibadaah, you get reward if you go to sleep with the intention that you rest your body so you will be able to worship Allah swt tomorrow. Or you worship Allah swt by going to work, where you get your income to feed your family and take care of them. Everything in life , when it is done properly according to teaching of Muhammed saws, is worship to God, so each one has its on rights, its own time. You pray you read qur'an , you study, you sleep, you spend time with u'r wife, kids, etc etc. and as for being dedicated in one thing, and leaving all the other things in deficit, this is not worship, this is extreme, and the offspring of it is nothing. If you consume meat, vegetables , etc etc your body will be very healthy, but if you consume just meat meat meat, you gonna have lack of vitamins etc etc. so it's not the solution to be an extremist in worship God, cuz it leads to nothing. By fullfilling all your duites as a man, or someone as a woman, you fulfuill God's prescribed duties to u. so you please God in every aspect.
A priest, he doesn't get married, for me it is a "zullum" to him, zullum means "doing something bad to him", like you do zullum to someone by robbing someone who worked all day to earn some money, so the preiest is doing zullum to himself, not getting married is an awful thing, it's something that the human nature requires, to have some relationship with the opposite gendre. we see in this case the priest is on extreme, bc he is leaving the duties as a father, a husband , etc. just to fulfill some other duty, it's like cleaning your table in your room, but your closset or your bed is messed up. you have to clean all of them a little bit, so it becomes alltogether a cleaned room.
Reported by an-Nasaa'ee (5/268), ibn Maajah (no. 3029), Ahmad (1/215, 347) with a saheeh sanad. The Messenger of Allaah (SAW) said, "I warn you of extremism in the Religion for indeed those that came before you were destroyed due to their extremism in the religion."
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which they are not the same. you can try to put some water gass on the glass and put some coffe and drink it 
it's really good . i've tried it.
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