"Views on Atonement for Sin."

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc

GraceSeeker, this was a great post, but I will have to comment on your ending.You lost me on this one. We see Allah as both Just and Merciful, but we also see it as a Judgment Day. Just as a person on trial does not know if he will be found guilty or innocent until the jury returns its verdict, so also the jury is still out as to whether I will be judged with the wheat or the tare.

Well, as I just mentioned in another post. We Christians have peeked ahead and read the end of the book. That is why we know the outcome even before we are asked to stand trial.

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

You have no way of knowing. I didn't know you used to be a Christian. I'll be honest with you; I don't understand how you could leave Christianity to be a Muslim. It fries my brain trying to understand this. How could you not have even more doubts as a Muslim than you had as a Christian?

I did not have doubts about Christianity. I became a Muslim when I read the Quran with an open mind to see what it said. Reading the passages in the Quran about Jesus and Mary is what changed my basic belief system in a moment of "inspiration" like a light bulb that turned on within me so that I could discern Truth from error. Believe me, it is no small thing to change one's religion that I did not set out to do. I believe that it comes not but with God's Guidance.

Especially when Muhammad had doubted his own revelations, which started the Islam religion. He even thought the source of it by thinking it was demonic in nature and that he was demon possessed. If he doubted the source of his revelation how much more would or should I? Out of all the great prophets in the Bible never did one wonder about the origins of their revelations. They struggled processing them, but never did they doubt its origins like Muhammad did. What caused or strengthened him to accept that he was authentically hearing from God was his wives. One said he would be a prophet of this nation, and the other wives believed his visions were authentic because of his uncontrolled convulsions. The irony of it is, he received the witness of his spirituality from women (wives) whose spirituality he considered to be half the witness of a man. In fact, he believed it was due to the lack or deficiency of a woman's mind; yet, it was Khadija who confirms his revelations. Furthermore, Muhammad received his first revelation vision during the month of Ramadan; therefore, no one could attack his vision without attacking the holiest of months in the calendar year. One of his most devoted wives was Aishah who he married at six years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old. Imagine if she was your daughter. I am getting my info from a book called "Unveiling Islam." It’s an insider’s view at Muslim life and beliefs written by Caner who was a born and raised a devout Muslim. He is now a strong Christian. Paul says, "You did run well. Who has bewitched you?"

I choose not to respond to this attack. Your making fun of me does not offend me - perhaps enduring it will offset a sin or 2 that I have accumulated.

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc

GraceSeeker, this was a great post, but I will have to comment on your ending.You lost me on this one. We see Allah as both Just and Merciful, but we also see it as a Judgment Day. Just as a person on trial does not know if he will be found guilty or innocent until the jury returns its verdict, so also the jury is still out as to whether I will be judged with the wheat or the tare.

Rather we believe there will be plenty of justice dealt out that Day, we just pray to not bear the brunt of Allah's Wrath rather to receive His Mercy. We in fact believe Allah "does work that way" to be willing and able to forgive with a figurative sweep of the hand. If my bad deeds outweigh my good on the Scale of Justice, then I may be forgiven for my sins or I may be punished for them in Hell until that "sin-debt" has been paid. Who can deny the Judgement of Allah? We Muslims believe that if we believe in Allah and associate no partners with Him, that believers that are sent to Hell will eventually be brought out. However, who wants to spend a single millisecond in Hell?

May Allah forgive me if I have mis-spoken.

There is no coming out of Hell. Once in there, it is forever. Hell is the absence of God for all eternity. God has provided a beautiful way out not by associating partners to God. He has no partners, but He gave us a way to reconcile us to God through Jesus Christ. If we neglect so great a salvation, how can we escape judgment or even dare to think that God will have mercy when we reject the most precious gift He has to offer us. We can't have God's mercy without Christ; there just simply isn't any. We become guilty of Jesus' blood when we reject Him, and all of God's wrath is on us not just a part all! It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. May God open all our eyes to see as He does in Jesus name I pray.

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

There is no coming out of Hell. Once in there, it is forever. Hell is the absence of God for all eternity. God has provided a beautiful way out not by associating partners to God. He has no partners, but He gave us a way to reconcile us to God through Jesus Christ. If we neglect so great a salvation, how can we escape judgment or even dare to think that God will have mercy when we reject the most precious gift He has to offer us. We can't have God's mercy without Christ; there just simply isn't any. We become guilty of Jesus' blood when we reject Him, and all of God's wrath is on us not just a part all! It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. May God open all our eyes to see as He does in Jesus name I pray.

Your post most clearly illustrates how Islam and Christianity are diametrically opposed and how both can't be right. Just as you say there is no salvation outside of accepting Jesus as the Son of God and believing that he died on the cross for our sins, so also do Muslims say there is no salvation in ascribing partners, or sons, or mothers to Allah. I have made my choice and you have made yours. Allah will surely judge between us as to which is on the Staight Path.

Quran 22:17 Surely as for those who are true believers (the Muslims), the Jews, the Sabians, the Christians, the Magians and the ones who commit shirk (polytheists) - Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection; for Allah is a witness over everything.

format_quote Originally Posted by vpb

Allah applies the justice when the deeds are put on the scale, which means Allah is just, bc nothing from bad/good is substracted, everything that you have done in your life (even the smaller than the size of atom as it says in the Qur'an)will be shown to you with proof, so this means that Allah swt is just, and he doesn't hide or loose someone's good deeds or bad. It wouldn't be good for you if you and your friend working the same thing, and then people to recognize your friend's work, but to say to u "we don't know that u did anything", so they are being injust for hiding your work wether it is bad or good. So Allah is just on bringing those deeds, and punishing people acording to the level of evil that did, Allah does not punish them more than the they did bad things, but he rewards people who did good, with more than they did goods, see his mercy?. So when you deeds are put on scale, of course they are not worthy to return the goods that Allah has made to you, also to thank Allah, but it shows that you tried to thank Allah in the most possible way that a human can, even his capability is not in the level to return the thanks as much as Allah has bestowed goods on us, cuz you can't count them, so then Allah gives mercy to you.

The scales of justice may be something we see in this life, in one form or another, but there is nothing of the sort at the Judgment after this life. It doesn't even make logical sense. If heaven is a perfect place (and it has to be if God dwells there), there can be allowed NO sin or sinners in it. Period. One sin---just one single sin---is enough to bar a person from entering. Weighing all my bad deeds against all my "good" deeds is not what is going to occur. The issue is not, do I have more good than bad? If I have ANY bad, I cannot enter. Sin must be forgiven---ALL of it---or it will bar our entrance. The issue is how do I get forgiveness for ALL my bad, NOT how do I accumulate more good than bad?

The Christian teaching is that Christ paid for my bad---ALL of it, past, present, and future---by taking upon Himself all that bad and suffering the judgment of God in my place. That satisfies God's justice. His grace and mercy are then extended to me upon my repentance and faith in that atoning work at the cross, plus with His resurrection. I receive, as a free gift, God's gift of eternal life (paid for in full by Christ). So, justice, mercy, and grace are all satisfied and fulfilled. Now, I might add, once that free gift is received, so that I have eternal life, now and forever, I will want to serve Him and obey Him out of graditude, as opposed to duty in keeping laws and do's and don'ts. So good works follow and flow out of salvation, and there will be a judgment of those works, for rewards, etc. But it is not a matter of scales and weighing those works against bad works. All the bad works are gone, removed, forgiven when I repented and believed. So, I can have assurance here and now, before the judgment, that I have my sins forgiven---all of them---now, and there is then no uncertainty about facing God at the judgment. He judged my sin at the cross when He judged the One bearing my sin. There is no double jeopardy, no double payment; all my sin has been fully paid for. The judgment for me is solely and strictly of my works after salvation, whether they were of eternal value (see 1 Corinth. 3:11-15).

format_quote Originally Posted by vpb

Don't mix sucicide bombers with jihad, I'm not talking about them. But as for soldiers who die on battlefield , getting killed from the opposite force , if that soldier had the intention to protect his country or his wealth, and was sincere that it was doing for Allah swt and not show up, then he is granted Jannah. and in every country those who get killed are honored, isn't it? so same thing, in Islam if you get killed, then you get honored by going to Jannah. Also the benifitons that you get. but don't mix this with suicide bombers, i'm not talking about them. I'm talking only what Qur'an and Sunnah speaks about.

Yes, a person is honored who is killed in a war. That's what our Memorial Day is all about---remembering and honoring those who have fought and died in wars. But their eternal destiny is never determined by their dying in the war in and of itself. There are plenty of atheists (supposedly) that fight and die in wars. They don't go to heaven just because they died in a war. Nor does anyone else. Again, it is a matter of forgiveness, based on repentance and faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice and resurrection, that determines one's eternal destiny.

Peace

format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

Alapia.. I am not going to dignify your post as the only conclusion I can draw is that you are a deeply disturbed and under educated man... but will post this for you, perhaps if you can open your eyes to the laws of your own country, you'd be a little less hysterical about those of others centuries ago. This is U.S 1885


Source

That was only one of the factual observations I made that you addressed, and I'll give you that one; nevertheless, I wouldn't consent to my daughter's hand in marraige at six years old. WOULD YOU? Finally, why am I deeply distrubed? Is because of of my observations or the fact that I could share them. If you are not going to dignify my post, please don't. Muhammad taught that we should be forced to submit to Allah. All my statements can be backed up with the Quran and from other very reputable sources. Just remember one thing the devil pushes one in the direction he wants you to go but the Lord leads his sheep.

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow

Just a few quick questions:

What was the name of Jesus's(as) wife? If you answer none, does that mean being without a wife is a superior form and more God-like?

None. No.

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow

How many Children did Jesus(as) have?

If you answer none, does that mean He is not the Father as the Father had a son according to Christianity? If he is not also the Father doesn't that divide the trinity into 3 distinct, seperate entities?

None. Jesus was not an earthly father to any children since He was not married and He did not father any children out of wedlock.

The Trinity consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all of Whom are of one essence, substance, and nature, namely, Deity. They are the ONE true God. The three are indeed three distinct, separate entities, but together make up the ONE God. They are separate and distinct in the sense that the Son died on the cross, not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world; the Son did not send the Father or the Holy Spirit to be the Savior of the world. The Holy Spirit was sent by the Father and the Son to do His special work, not vice versa. etc., etc. So they are in that sense separate and distinct, but they are the ONE God.

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow

Why did Jesus(as) need to have a mother?
Does that mean he is a lesser creation than Adam as Adam had no mother nor father?

Having a mother was how God made the Word flesh (John 1:14). Presumably He could have used a direct act of creation of Jesus' physical body, as in, "Let there be a physical body" and poof, there would be a man's body the Word could inhabit. But that is not how God did it. NO, to your second question.

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow

Was Jesus(as) obediant to his Mother?
Does that not place Mary into a position of superiority over God(swt) if even for the first few years of Jesus's(as) infancy?

Yes. It placed Jesus' earthly mother in a position of authority over the child and young person and young man, Jesus, for the period He was subject and obedient to her, as any Jewish boy should be to his mother. See Luke 2:51.

Your point?

Peace

Alapiana's posts are the best. I have to admit

The scales of justice may be something we see in this life, in one form or another, but there is nothing of the sort at the Judgment after this life. It doesn't even make logical sense. If heaven is a perfect place (and it has to be if God dwells there), there can be allowed NO sin or sinners in it. Period. One sin---just one single sin---is enough to bar a person from entering. Weighing all my bad deeds against all my "good" deeds is not what is going to occur. The issue is not, do I have more good than bad? If I have ANY bad, I cannot enter. Sin must be forgiven---ALL of it---or it will bar our entrance. The issue is how do I get forgiveness for ALL my bad, NOT how do I accumulate more good than bad?

helloooooo? , are you up to date with the thread, we have been already talking about mercy of Allah swt. The trial on the day of judgment happens before entering heaven., the trial is not held in heaven or hell, but after the trial people go to heaven or hell. and those who recieve Allah's mercy, their sins are forgiven and are cleaned and put in Jannah, since nothing bad can enter Jannah. ,
there can be someone who has more bad deeds that good deeds, but if Allah wants to give mercy to him, he will forgive his sins.
CAUTION: Allah forgives anything but joining partnership with him. if you die in that state you'll enter Hell through the 7 doors.

The Christian teaching is that Christ paid for my bad---ALL of it, past, present, and future---by taking upon Himself all that bad and suffering the judgment of God in my place. That satisfies God's justice. His grace and mercy are then extended to me upon my repentance and faith in that atoning work at the cross, plus with His resurrection. I receive, as a free gift, God's gift of eternal life (paid for in full by Christ). So, justice, mercy, and grace are all satisfied and fulfilled. Now, I might add, once that free gift is received, so that I have eternal life, now and forever, I will want to serve Him and obey Him out of graditude, as opposed to duty in keeping laws and do's and don'ts. So good works follow and flow out of salvation, and there will be a judgment of those works, for rewards, etc. But it is not a matter of scales and weighing those works against bad works. All the bad works are gone, removed, forgiven when I repented and believed. So, I can have assurance here and now, before the judgment, that I have my sins forgiven---all of them---now, and there is then no uncertainty about facing God at the judgment. He judged my sin at the cross when He judged the One bearing my sin. There is no double jeopardy, no double payment; all my sin has been fully paid for. The judgment for me is solely and strictly of my works after salvation, whether they were of eternal value (see 1 Corinth. 3:11-15).

Subhanallah !!!!!. When you say "I am granted paradise", you are telling God "hey, i believed in you, now you have to put me in paradise". This thing about "the gift" one of the biggest tricks of Shaitan, trying to mislead people. There is no such gift, you have to work all your life so you win the Jannah on the afterlife, this life is a test, nothing more. Have you ever seen someone get a BSc+MSc+PhD without ever going to univesity?just recieveing a gift, "heyyy I got a diploma on my post mail". no, you have to study and do exams to get the degrees and in every signel aspect of your life, it's common sense, you work, you get. if you don't work you don't get. there's no such thing as , ops it came.
Jesus Christ did not die for you sins, he didn't even die at all, he will come , and then die as all other prophets. Jesus Christ will be held accountable for himself, not for you. If you are on university, don't ever try to hold on someone else and say "my friend studied, I will get an A on the exam", no, on the day of judgement, everybody will be preoccupied with him/her self. Even Mary will forget Jesus, from being herself occupied. Nobody's gonna help you on day of judgement, this is a trick of Shaitan, and when you die, you'll see that no one is gonna be able to help you. NO JESUS. it's gonna be you, and your deeds, and your belief, and if you joined partnership with Allah, wallahi , you will enter among one of the 7 gates of the hell, cuz Allah doesn't forgive this sin of joining him partnership. and it's going to be too late. don't get tricked by Shaitan. We see in our daily life, everyone is responsible for their own duties, so we are ,for our deeds that we did.

lol, alpiana when I read your posts it makes me think of the book I read couple of weeks ago "Why trust the bible? " . You seem to feel very insecure from Islam as the author of that book is. But I can assure you have totally no clue what you're talking about, are you? . lolll

format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123

The Trinity consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all of Whom are of one essence, substance, and nature, namely, Deity. They are the ONE true God. The three are indeed three distinct, separate entities, but together make up the ONE God. They are separate and distinct in the sense that the Son died on the cross, not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world; the Son did not send the Father or the Holy Spirit to be the Savior of the world. The Holy Spirit was sent by the Father and the Son to do His special work, not vice versa. etc., etc. So they are in that sense separate and distinct, but they are the ONE God.

thanks for clearing that up.

when it gets down to the wire the Christian always falls back on 'it is impossible to understand and must be accepted on faith' and now I know why. I also understand why the Christian expects such a big reward simply for accepting this doctrine 'on faith'. It is quite a feat.

peace to you and God's guidance.

This thread has gone fruitless and should be closed.

format_quote Originally Posted by Philosopher

This thread has gone fruitless and should be closed.

Agreed. I personally find the stream of comments telling Christians what they believe or should believe when they both obviously don't believe it, and have clearly explained why they don't believe it, both tedious and pointless. It's just repetition of what they consider a 'killer' point by people totally unable to recognise that it is a 'killer' point only to them, and not the folks it is directed at.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

[COLOR=Blue]

If Christians believe Priests are above having children , then how come u can believe God has begotten son ?

They don't believe that, and you are only really talking about Catholics anyway.

An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs—how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord. 1 Corinthians 7:32b–35 NIV

Nothing about being "above" having children, just that doing so necessarily means they have less time to devote to being priests.

thanks for clearing that up.

when it gets down to the wire the Christian always falls back on 'it is impossible to understand and must be accepted on faith' and now I know why. I also understand why the Christian expects such a big reward simply for accepting this doctrine 'on faith'. It is quite a feat.

peace to you and God's guidance.

yep, that's why I said, it's a concept that cannot be explained, so the only way is just accept it .

This thread has gone fruitless and should be closed.

Go have some ice-cream

Agreed. I personally find the stream of comments telling Christians what they believe or should believe when they both obviously don't believe it, and have clearly explained why they don't believe it, both tedious and pointless. It's just repetition of what they consider a 'killer' point by people totally unable to recognise that it is a 'killer' point only to them, and not the folks it is directed at.

also you go and have some ice-cream
we are not talking here about killers.

An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs—how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord. 1 Corinthians 7:32b–35 NIV

Muhammed saws has already proven that it is possible to be married and dedicate him/her self to the Lord. Even if we go and take a very pious muslim who reached the level of Ikhsaan, he is married and still the only thing he is preoccupied is his Lord, or or or let's take Abu Hanifa, he is one of the greatest scholars, who dedicated his life for Allah swt, those who know him know how much he contributed , and he was stilled married

Sorry

format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123

The scales of justice may be something we see in this life, in one form or another, but there is nothing of the sort at the Judgment after this life. It doesn't even make logical sense. If heaven is a perfect place (and it has to be if God dwells there), there can be allowed NO sin or sinners in it. Period. One sin---just one single sin---is enough to bar a person from entering. Weighing all my bad deeds against all my "good" deeds is not what is going to occur. The issue is not, do I have more good than bad? If I have ANY bad, I cannot enter. Sin must be forgiven---ALL of it---or it will bar our entrance. The issue is how do I get forgiveness for ALL my bad, NOT how do I accumulate more good than bad?
.....
Again, it is a matter of forgiveness, based on repentance and faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice and resurrection, that determines one's eternal destiny.

Peace

Christians seem to limit Allah's ability to forgive sin according to their formula that Jesus (pbuh) never taught. I accept Jesus (pbuh) as a prophet of Allah, but outright and completely reject Paul and the other NT authors as prophets of Allah. The very point that you are counting on getting you into Heaven may be the very one that keeps you out and that is the mortal sin of ascribing partners (the human Jesus) with the One God.