"Views on Atonement for Sin."

format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123

You just don't get it, do you? But then you are expressing the Muslim view, so I shouldn't expect you to get the Christian view. From all the posts, both Muslim and Christian, we can conclude that there is agreement on some very clear points:

1. We are all sinners, whether daily or hourly, in word, thought, or deed.

2. Heaven is a perfect place where no sin will ever enter.

3. Without forgiveness of sins, no sinner will ever enter Heaven.

4. No sinner can work enough, or do anything, or be "good" enough, to deserve Heaven.

5. Muslims are hoping in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

6. Christians are relying on repentance and faith in Christ's atoning death for sins, and resurrection, as payment in full for all their sins, in order to receive forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift, here and now and forevermore.

7. The view you have expressed represents the Muslim view that Christ did not die on the cross, let alone for anyone's sins. This view is diametrically and irreconcilably opposed to the Christian Gospel that Christ died for our sins and rose again.

8. According to the Christian view, a person who denies the Deity of Christ will die in his sins (John 8:24,58), and be barred from Heaven.

9. According to the Muslim view, believing Christ is God is associating with Allah, the unforgiveable sin that will bar a person from Heaven.

I think that covers points of agreement. Have I left anything out?

Peace

Excellent Phil, that is a great summary. I believe your points 8 & 9 give a full explanation as to why we can not agree. In accordance with the Bible point 8 is true. In accordance with the Qur'an point 9 is true.

I firmly believe the Qur'an is the truth and that for me to follow Christianity would be the path to Hellfire. I know I can no more convince you the Qur'an is the truth, than you can convince me that the Bible is true. All I can do is Thank Allah(swt) that I was lead away from the Bible and to the Qur'an. I know you are probably Thanking God(swt) that you have the Bible.

There can be no mutual acceptance over the Trinity. The best we can do as Muslims and Christians is disagree in peace.

Can we put God to a test? Well, we shouldn't. But we can try. Trying doesn't mean that God actually experiences the sensation of being tested. Was Jesus tested in the wilderness by the devil? Well, again, the devil tried, but we don't see any signs that Jesus actually felt any experience of being tested by the devil. I think Jesus felt tested more by the physical aspects of fasting than by the devil's attempts at testing him.

i;m sorry to say but with this you are put Jesus so low, even that you believe he is God. Devil does not even try to do anything to God, bc God has power over all things, also over the devil, cuz God created him. God is not tempted or tested in any form. you can't test God, but God can test you. but I dont see anything to discuss further bc we percieve God in different ways.

Well, it sounds like you've been through your own time of testing. Congratulations on coming through it. May your results be the ones you are looking for.

thanks

The first revelation shows he was not sure it was from God or some other spiritual source. He admits that he is just basically an open channel. I repeat he is not sure who is working through him. He says: "I am not an innovation among messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear" (surah 46:9) I don't think anything bad about the prophet for this. I think his concerns were wise ones. He was afraid of his revelation source. No offense intended, but I think he had very good cause to doubt the source. His heart beat severally he went to Khadija saying: "Cover me, cover me!" After being covered his fears subsided and he said "I fear something may happen to me." She replied, "Never! By Allah..." (hadith1.1.3) She basically was telling him what to believe and encouraging him to continue good works and he would be fine. It looks to me that she had some power of influence over the way he viewed his first revelation. This is the irony, Islamic theology appears to assert that woman are intellectually inferior to men (I do not believe this to be true) One hadith explains, "The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half that of a man?' The women said, 'Yes,' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind'" As I had mentioned, it was Khadija that confirms his revelation. That makes me wonder, who was in control?

Of course he run away, and of course he was suprised, it was the first time we was seeing something he never saw before. and of course he run to Khadija, cuz she was his wife, where do u think he was supposed to go? and as for proving that he really recieved a revelation, not Khadija but many many other sahabas have witnessed it, but it seems you read a book and now you think you know everything and try to point things. One example is when the foot of the Prophet saws was laying on the body of a sahaba, and when the Prophet started reciving some verses, his foot became very heavy, so that it was going to break the sahaba's bone where the Prophet's foot was laying. and the revelation didn't happen just that night but it happened for 23 years. so lot of people witnessed it. and concerning women, it's not that women are inferior, it's just that their memory is not the same as the men's memory, and we know this everyday life, usually women are smarter on manipulating, while men are not as good as women, but women forget more than man do. what's wrong with this? both genders have their own problems. just please don't be like those people who read a book on shariah and then come up on tv and say "i'm an expert on shariah" . you're not saying you are an expert but the statements that you are making look like u discovered something, things like this people claimed long time before you, but no luck, cuz things are already proved. just please read more about Quran and it's revelation and they will clear your doubts

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

The first revelation shows he was not sure it was from God or some other spiritual source.

go ahead show me where it says that in the Quran, since that is where you first mentioned was your source and all the evidence that we refuse to admit to!

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

He admits that he is just basically an open channel. I repeat he is not sure who is working through him. He says: "I am not an innovation among messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear" (surah 46:9) I don't think anything bad about the prophet for this.

So exactly what is your point with this? was Mary not an open Channel? if we are to go by your logic, the only explanation would be there is no such thing as a virgin birth! That is what a miracle is by definition " an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment"-- each messenger had a gift, Joseph had the gift of dreams, Solomon had power unsurpassed, Jesus had the gift to heal, prophet Mohammed PBUH had the gift of words, what is your point?

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

I think his concerns were wise ones. He was afraid of his revelation source.

really do tell.. I think thee is wisdom in Jews by the same token not believing that there is such a thing as a "miracle birth"

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

No offense intended

None taken, I am not sure where what you wish to instigate an offense by or what emotion your hoping to evoke with this none sense?

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

but I think he had very good cause to doubt the source

.
oh why is that? the same as we should have doubted Mary's virgin birth?

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

His heart beat severally he went to Khadija saying: "Cover me, cover me!" After being covered his fears subsided and he said "I fear something may happen to me." She replied, "Never! By Allah..." (hadith1.1.3) She basically was telling him what to believe and encouraging him to continue good works and he would be fine.

So? that was an extraordinary event, undoubtedly the same as the annunciation of Christ by the Angel Gabriel to Mary!

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

It looks to me that she had some power of influence over the way he viewed his first revelation.

Ahahaha, under what psychological assessment do you make this point? were you there?

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

This is the irony, Islamic theology appears to assert that woman are intellectually inferior to men

There is nothing in Islam to state that we are intellectually inferior we are given highest status amongst all women. Let's contrast to the bible shall we? have a look at this though from your bible.. think women would get a kick out of it

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Is.3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.

1 Cor.11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

1 Cor.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Eph.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

Col.3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."

1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing

1 Pet.3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands."

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

(I do not believe this to be true)

It is too bad because above in your bible it tells women off, and you appear oh so devoted, I thought you'd be the sort to really get a kick out of subjugating women!

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

One hadith explains, "The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half that of a man?' The women said, 'Yes,' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind'" As I had mentioned, it was Khadija that confirms his revelation. That makes me wonder, who was in control?

Your mention isn't worth jack... Here is the portion that deals with why there needs to be two witnesses of women, said in the most beautiful of words in the noble Quran... certainly nothing along your biblical lines above... BTW for what it is worth, I think it is a far better system than your corrupt one of 12 juries. I can get into that a little later, I don't wish to digress from topic!

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِذَا تَدَايَنتُم بِدَيْنٍ إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى فَاكْتُبُوهُ وَلْيَكْتُب بَّيْنَكُمْ كَاتِبٌ بِالْعَدْلِ وَلاَ يَأْبَ كَاتِبٌ أَنْ يَكْتُبَ كَمَا عَلَّمَهُ اللّهُ فَلْيَكْتُبْ وَلْيُمْلِلِ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ وَلْيَتَّقِ اللّهَ رَبَّهُ وَلاَ يَبْخَسْ مِنْهُ شَيْئًا فَإن كَانَ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ سَفِيهًا أَوْ ضَعِيفًا أَوْ لاَ يَسْتَطِيعُ أَن يُمِلَّ هُوَ فَلْيُمْلِلْ وَلِيُّهُ بِالْعَدْلِ وَاسْتَشْهِدُواْ شَهِيدَيْنِ من رِّجَالِكُمْ فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُونَا رَجُلَيْنِ فَرَجُلٌ وَامْرَأَتَانِ مِمَّن تَرْضَوْنَ مِنَ الشُّهَدَاء أَن تَضِلَّ إْحْدَاهُمَا فَتُذَكِّرَ إِحْدَاهُمَا الأُخْرَى وَلاَ يَأْبَ الشُّهَدَاء إِذَا مَا دُعُواْ وَلاَ تَسْأَمُوْاْ أَن تَكْتُبُوْهُ صَغِيرًا أَو كَبِيرًا إِلَى أَجَلِهِ ذَلِكُمْ أَقْسَطُ عِندَ اللّهِ وَأَقْومُ لِلشَّهَادَةِ وَأَدْنَى أَلاَّ تَرْتَابُواْ إِلاَّ أَن تَكُونَ تِجَارَةً حَاضِرَةً تُدِيرُونَهَا بَيْنَكُمْ فَلَيْسَ عَلَيْكُمْ جُنَاحٌ أَلاَّ تَكْتُبُوهَا وَأَشْهِدُوْاْ إِذَا تَبَايَعْتُمْ وَلاَ يُضَآرَّ كَاتِبٌ وَلاَ شَهِيدٌ وَإِن تَفْعَلُواْ فَإِنَّهُ فُسُوقٌ بِكُمْ وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ {282}

[Pickthal 2:282] O ye who believe! When ye contract a debt for a fixed term, record it in writing. Let a scribe record it in writing between you in (terms of) equity. No scribe should refuse to write as Allah hath taught him, so let him write, and let him who incurreth the debt dictate, and let him observe his duty to Allah his Lord, and diminish naught thereof. But if he who oweth the debt is of low understanding, or weak, or unable himself to dictate, then let the guardian of his interests dictate in (terms of) equity. And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth (through forgetfulness) the other will remember.

nothing about being a half wit, but does describe the emotional nature of women in very eloquent tongue!

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

Muhammad doubted his revelation, and since it is on the holiest month on the Islamic calendar

what does that mean? how do you even this to be true? if Ramadan didn't come about until Islam as a whole was established? do you make up stuff as you go along? do you honestly expect us to buy this?

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

Waraqa told Muhammad they would call him a liar; they will persecute thee; they will banish thee, and they will fight against thee.

Do you even know who waraqa was?
again what is your point? that was the case of the people, they slaughtered their messengers, Ad; Tahmud etc etc before prophet Mohammed PBUH, they were refractory and ungrateful as you are now

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

It seems like that was enough to stop the prophet from doubting his revelation.

lol, I know that is your wish, But Allah motim noorih wlaw karha alakeroon!

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

It is written in many reliable documents that Muhammad doubted the source of his revelations as well,

Mecamylamine is making a come back for this sort of tick...are you going to repeat yourself every two sentences? what sort of Aphasia is this?

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

and it seems like the only ones that deny this are Muslims.

deny what exactly?

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

No prophet in the Bible ever doubted the source of revelation;

you might as well be the author of the bible, it means nothing to me all the adding and subtracting, I believe Abraham the father of all monotheism had a lot of doubt, he even asked G-D to prove to him he can raise the dead, G-D asked him, do you not believe, he said-- yes, but so my heart would be at peace! so what do you know, I can name many examples. But don't want to take an effort to respond to you, since you never learn! or even want to learn! You are very insincere.

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

they may have wonder how God was going to bring a thing to pass.

again I am not sure what you mean by this?

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

I don’t think it is fair of you to attack my person when the purpose of this post is comparative religion.

I attack you because you seem to want to impress upon us how under educated you are, with the same rhetoric in every post. we are not buying!

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

Moreover, we have been discussing the reliability between The Bible and the Qur’an.

ok

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

I think this documentation is important in determining spiritual validity between the two Books and consistent with determining where the lie lies.

I think it is visible to the naked eye where the "lies lie"

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

We Christians and you Muslims both believe the other is wrong.

we believe you to be misguided (those who have gone astray!)

Why do you insult me when I AM SINCERELY TRYING TO GET YOU TO SEE THE ERROR OF YOUR WAYS JUST AS YOU ARE DOING AMONG CHRISTIANS?[/QUOTE]
lol..you are just comical now. You want to take me on, do some real research like Dr. Gary miller, and then come have a real dialogue!

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

We can attack the belief, but we shouldn't attack the believer as you have done with me.

Ok deal. I believe you to be a pagan no different than someone who would worship Zeus and believe Hercules was his son.. just substitute G-D the father, Jesus, and hear for Mary or whatever mortal woman he was with, and you are all set.

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

peace

And to you!

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

You are loved

I know I am loved!
in closure please state your purpose here, if you think you are going to bring anyone back to the "light", then let me be the first to let you know how delusional you are-- you'll have better luck converting us to Jews than to Christians! At least we won't have to devolve into mythology with Judaism.

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

Why do you insult me when I AM SINCERELY TRYING TO GET YOU TO SEE THE ERROR OF YOUR WAYS JUST AS YOU ARE DOING AMONG CHRISTIANS? We can attack the belief, but we shouldn’t attack the believer as you have done with me.
peace
You are loved

I'm going to attempt to reduce this into managable segments and respond to each as best as I can.

The first revelation shows he was not sure it was from God or some other spiritual source. He admits that he is just basically an open channel. I repeat he is not sure who is working through him. He says: "I am not an innovation among messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear" (surah 46:9)

I fail to see where that statement is any indication of doubt. Especially when taken in it's entirety.

46: 1. Ha Mim. P Y C
46: 2. The revelation of the Book is from Allah, the Mighty, the Wise. P Y C
46: 3. We did not create the heavens and the earth and what is between them two save with truth and (for) an appointed term; and those who disbelieve turn aside from what they are warned of. P Y C

46: 4. Say: Have you considered what you call upon besides Allah? Show me what they have created of the earth, or have they a share in the heavens? Bring me a book before this or traces of knowledge, if you are truthful. P Y C
46: 5. And who is in greater error than he who calls besides Allah upon those that will not answer him till the day of resurrection and they are heedless of their call? P Y C

46: 6. And when men are gathered together they shall be their enemies, and shall be deniers of their worshipping (them). P Y
46: 7. And when Our clear communications are recited to them, those who disbelieve say with regard to the truth when it comes to them: This is clear magic. P Y C
46: 8. Nay! they say: He has forged it. Say: If I have forged it, you do not control anything for me from Allah; He knows best what you utter concerning it; He is enough as a witness between me and you, and He is the Forgiving, the Merciful. P Y C

46: 9. Say: I am not the first of the messengers, and I do not know what will be done with me or with you: I do not follow anything but that which is revealed to me, and I am nothing but a plain warner. P Y C
46:10. Say: Have you considered if it is from Allah, and you disbelieve in it, and a witness from among the children of Israel has borne witness of one like it, so he believed, while you are big with pride; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. P Y C

46:11. And those who disbelieve say concerning those who believe: If it had been a good, they would not have gone ahead of us therein. And as they do not seek to be rightly directed thereby, they say: It is an old lie. P
Y C
46:12. And before it the Book of Musa was a guide and a mercy: and this is a Book verifying (it) in the Arabic language that it may warn those who are unjust and as good news for the doers of good. P Y C

46:13. Surely those who say, Our Lord is Allah, then they continue on the right way, they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve. P Y C
46:14. These are the dwellers of the garden, abiding therein: a reward for what they did. P Y
46:15. And We have enjoined on man doing of good to his parents; with trouble did his mother bear him and with trouble did she bring him forth; and the bearing of him and the weaning of him was thirty months; until when he attains his maturity and reaches forty years, he says: My Lord! grant me that I may give thanks for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may do good which pleases Thee and do good to me in respect of my offspring; surely I turn to Thee, and surely I am of those who submit. P Y C

46:16. These are they from whom We accept the best of what they have done and pass over their evil deeds, among the dwellers of the garden; the promise of truth which they were promised. P Y C
46:17. And he who says to his parents: Fie on you! do you threaten me that I shall be brought forth when generations have already passed away before me? And they both call for Allah's aid: Woe to you! believe, surely the promise of Allah is true. But he says: This is nothing but stories of the ancients. P Y C

46:18. These are they against whom the word has proved true among nations of the jinn and the men that have already passed away before them; surely they are losers. P Y C
46:19. And for all are degrees according to what they did, and that He may pay them back fully their deeds and they shall not be wronged. P Y C
46:20. And on the day when those who disbelieve shall be brought before the fire: You did away with your good things in your life of the world and you enjoyed them for a while, so today you shall be rewarded with the punishment of abasement because you were unjustly proud in the land and because you transgressed. P Y C

46:21. And mention the brother of Ad; when he warned his people in the sandy plains,-- and indeed warners came before him and after him-- saying Serve none but Allah; surely I fear for you the punishment of a grievous day. P Y C
46:22. They said: Have you come to us to turn us away from our gods; then bring us what you threaten us with, if you are of the truthful ones. P Y C

46:23. He said: The knowledge is only with Allah, and I deliver to you the message with which I am sent, but I see you are a people who are ignorant. P Y C
46:24. So when they saw it as a cloud appearing in the sky advancing towards their valleys, they said: This is a cloud which will give us rain. Nay! it is what you sought to hasten on, a blast of wind in which is a painful punishment, P Y C

46:25. Destroying everything by the command of its Lord, so they became such that naught could be seen except their dwellings. Thus do We reward the guilty people. P Y C
46:26. And certainly We had established them in what We have not established you in, and We had given-- them ears and eyes and hearts, but neither their ears, nor their eyes, nor their hearts availed them aught, since they denied the communications of Allah, and that which they mocked encompassed them. P Y C

46:27. And certainly We destroyed the towns which are around you, and We repeat the communications that they might turn. P Y C
46:28. Why did not then those help them whom they took for gods besides Allah to draw (them) nigh (to Him)? Nay! they were lost to them; and this was their lie and what they forged. P Y C
46:29. And when We turned towards you a party of the jinn who listened to the Quran; so when they came to it, they said: Be silent; then when it was finished, they turned back to their people warning (them). P Y C

46:30. They said: O our people! we have listened to a Book revealed after Musa verifying that which is before it, guiding to the truth and to a right path: P Y
46:31. O our people! accept the Divine caller and believe in Him, He will forgive you of your faults and protect you from a painful punishment. P Y C
46:32. And whoever does not accept the-Divine caller, he shall not escape in the earth and he shall not have guardians besides Him, these are in manifest error. P Y C

46:33. Have they not considered that Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth and was not tired by their creation, is able to give life to the dead? Aye! He has surely power over all things. P Y C
46:34. And on the day when those who disbelieve shall be brought before the fire: Is it not true? They shall say: Aye! by our Lord! He will say: Then taste the punishment, because you disbelieved. P Y C

46:35. Therefore bear up patiently as did the messengers endowed with constancy bear up with patience and do not seek to hasten for them (their doom). On the day that they shall see what they are promised they shall be as if they had not tarried save an hour of the day. A sufficient exposition! Shall then any be destroyed save the transgressing people? P Y C

Shakir's Quran Translation

That is what Allah(swt) has told Muhammad(PBUH) to reply when any one asks who he is. Astagfirulla

I don't think anything bad about the prophet for this. I think his concerns were wise ones. He was afraid of his revelation source. No offense intended, but I think he had very good cause to doubt the source. His heart beat severally he went to Khadija saying: "Cover me, cover me!" After being covered his fears subsided and he said "I fear something may happen to me." She replied, "Never! By Allah..." (hadith1.1.3)

Dosen't it makes sense that a person would initially feel fear if God(swt) began speaking to them through an Angel. Would they not have doubt and want to be certain that they are not hearing things? If you look through the Bible you will notice that the Prophet who were spoken too all initially had doubts and showed great fear. Even Mary did not initially seem to be very happy to hear the words of Gabriel. Now also remember the Ahadith are not the words of Allah(swt) these are eye witness accounts as to what Muhammad did and/or said. this simply verifies to us that Muhammad(PBUH) saw and/or heard something that was not a routine daily occurrence.

Volumn 001, Book 001, Hadith Number 003.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Aisha : (The mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read."

The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones."

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira' sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, 'Wrap me (in blankets).' And then Allah revealed the following Holy Verses (of Quran):

'O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!' Arise and warn (the people against Allah's Punishment),... up to 'and desert the idols.' (74.1-5) After this the revelation started coming strongly, frequently and regularly."

I have difficulty in why you feel that makes for doubt in the Qur'an. I see it as verification the eyewitnesses saw something out of the abnormal happen and that this was the begining of the revelations to Muhammad(PBUH)

This is the irony, Islamic theology appears to assert that woman are intellectually inferior to men (I do not believe this to be true) One hadith explains, "The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half that of a man?' The women said, 'Yes,' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind'" As I had mentioned, it was Khadija that confirms his revelation. That makes me wonder, who was in control? Muhammad doubted his revelation, and since it is on the holiest month on the Islamic calendar,

I honestly can not see any relevance about anything. At that given time Ramadam had yet to be considered a Holy month. It took on that status as it was the Month the Qur'an was first revealed to Muhammad(PBUH)

It seems like that was enough to stop the prophet from doubting his revelation. It is written in many reliable documents that Muhammad doubted the source of his revelations as well, and it seems like the only ones that deny this are Muslims.

Since we read it in the Ahadith, what makes you think we deny it?

No prophet in the Bible ever doubted the source of revelation; they may have wonder how God was going to bring a thing to pass.

I believe if you look closely at every Prophet, they initially showed much doubt and fear as to what was happening.

Why do you insult me when I AM SINCERELY TRYING TO GET YOU TO SEE THE ERROR OF YOUR WAYS JUST AS YOU ARE DOING AMONG CHRISTIANS? We can attack the belief, but we shouldn’t attack the believer as you have done with me.

I have a feeling that comment is not very conducive to get your point across.

Salaam/ peace ;

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1

... now I feel I need your permission to prove to you the valid source

u don't need my permission to do anything......i m not the moderator here.


U may discuss about Islam here .


Things in Islam I am curious about...


http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-about-39.html

I am truly sorry to have offended you.

ok , thanks .......pl. correct me if hurt anyone's feelings unwillingly.


All i can request u to judge a matter regarding holy books.

Man made laws , belief , opinions change from time to time.... laws of God's final & last will remain unchanged till the Last Day.

What u dislike about Islam , pl justify that by quoting verses from Bible so that i can understand ...ya , he has his point to dislike it.

So , give me verse from Bible that says early marriage is a sin. A 9 yrs. old girl ( after her puberty ) can not get married even if her parent & the bride give consent.


verses of the Day :


Say, ‘Do you argue with us about God when He is our Lord and your Lord? We have our actions and you have your actions.


We act for Him alone.’


(Qur’an 2: 139)


Do not imagine that God will break His promise to His Messengers. God is Almighty, Exactor of Revenge.


(Qur’an 14:47)