"Views on Atonement for Sin."

**Redeemed** · 05-28-2007

Originally Posted by vpb

in Islam, everything is based on knowledge, the more knowledge you have , the more you trust in God, the more pious you are, and that's why the first word revealed is "Ekara" which means "READ", so knowledge is keept in high esteem.

so when you have something that is not well defined, a complex thing, then a number of definitions come from that, same as people can't really define the word "intelligence", cuz it's a complex thing.

A former Muslim told me the more knowledge you have the less your security you have. He said that even the prophet Muhammad wasn't sure of his salvation. If that is the case, where do you think you stand? Do you know that Allah will save you from you sin on the last day? No, I didn’t think so either. I know I am covered, and I don't have to worry about facing a Christless eternity. I do not commit shirk as you may suppose, because I believe in the true God and Creator of the worlds. The God I know first loved me, and it is His goodness that leads me to repentance. You must love your God in order to be loved back (maybe). We have a sure foundation and there is no devil in hell that can shake it. We have something to offer that no other religion has, and it makes Satan mad. We have the light. According to Islam Allah sent messengers to deliver the word. To the Christian, God sent His Son who is the light of the world and truth. I wouldn’t change shoes with anyone for the whole world. Glory to God in the highest.

**Redeemed** · 07-13-2007

I have been a Christian since I was born. I can't even imagine being anything else. I surely won't want to have to depend on my good works for salvation because even if I started doing good from now on, the bad would still out way my good.

And I know that I couldn't remain doing only good for the rest of my life; therefore, the only religion that offers me any hope of salvation is the one I was born into. Jesus lived a sinless life, and only he is good enough to carry my sins away and free me from them so I do good. What part does Allah have in your salvation?

**vpb** · 07-14-2007

I have been a Christian since I was born. I can't even imagine being anything else

2:170. When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?

because even if I started doing good from now on, the bad would still out way my good.

Muslim (121) narrated that ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: When Allaah put Islam in my heart, I came to the Prophet [an error occurred while processing this directive] (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said: “Give me your right hand so that I may swear allegiance to you.” He held out his hand and I withdrew my hand. He said, “What is the matter, O ‘Amr?” I said, “I want to stipulate a condition.” He said, “What do you want to stipulate?” I said, “That I will be forgiven.” He said, “Do you not know that Islam destroys that which came before it?”

when a person embraces Islam, everything bad between him and Allah swt is erased, except the good deeds that the person did before coming to Islam.

And I know that I couldn't remain doing only good for the rest of my life;

how do u know when u haven't tried? could we really say "well, I don't know if I can work to earn money, so I'll just......" .

all this life is work, this life is to work for the next world.

therefore, the only religion that offers me any hope of salvation is the one I was born into.

2:213. Mankind was one single nation (of natural way of life , Islam), and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight.

Jesus lived a sinless life, and only he is good enough to carry my sins away and free me from them so I do good.

I haven't heard anywhere that if you commit a crime, somebody can choose to go to jail for u.

What part does Allah have in your salvation?

if we joing NOT partnership anyone with Allah, we follow Qur'an and the Sunnah as much a possible, doing obligatory things, avoiding haram and doing good deeds, then Allah swt has promised for us paradise. and Allah does not break his promise.

**Redeemed** · 07-15-2007

Originally Posted by vpb

2:170. When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?

[COLOR=Blue]Muslim (121) narrated that ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: When Allaah put Islam in my heart, I came to the Prophet [an error occurred while processing this directive] (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said: “Give me your right hand so that I may swear allegiance to you.” He held out his hand and I withdrew my hand. He said, “What is the matter, O ‘Amr?” I said, “I want to stipulate a condition.” He said, “What do you want to stipulate?” I said, “That I will be forgiven.” He said, “Do you not know that Islam destroys that which came before it?”

when a person embraces Islam, everything bad between him and Allah swt is erased, except the good deeds that the person did before coming to Islam.

how do u know when u haven't tried? could we really say "well, I don't know if I can work to earn money, so I'll just......" .

all this life is work, this life is to work for the next world.

2:213. Mankind was one single nation (of natural way of life , Islam), and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight.

I haven't heard anywhere that if you commit a crime, somebody can choose to go to jail for u. God's ways are not ours. As high as the heavens are from the earth so are his way from ours. What is not possible with man is possible with G-d.
if we joing NOT partnership anyone with Allah, we follow Qur'an and the Sunnah as much a possible, doing obligatory things, avoiding haram and doing good deeds, then Allah swt has promised for us paradise. and Allah does not break his promise.

Yes, promises we have, but what is God doing to help you in the salvation process?

**Grace Seeker** · 07-18-2007

Hey, I happened to have in my email inbox, one of the deleted posts lost when the computer crashed. It is vpb's response to alapiana's last post:

Originally Posted by alapiana1

Yes, promises we have, but what is God doing to help you in the salvation process?

Originally Posted by vpb

look, I don't want to mention now what God does, cuz there are infinite , but
just some examples, the prayer that we do (the obligatory ones), 5 times a day
(5 prayers), they have the reward as doing 50 prayers. Night of Qadr is better
than 1000 months or 83 years of worship. since ppl in old times they lived
longer like (at time of Noah pbuh), they could worship Allah swt longer, so
Allah swt made it possible for muslims , even if they live 100-120 years max. ,
to use this night, so worshipping in that night is like worshipping for 83
years. If you do anything, even if you do shirk, and you repent to Allah swt
with sincerity and not doing it again (while you are alive), Allah swt will
forgive you. Even sleeping with intention to wake up for tomorrow to be able to
worship, this sleep is worship. etcccccc etccccccc.
there are infinite things like this. and we would not be able to mention.

but why do ask muslims about good works that we have to do in our faith??
isn't that what 'james 1:14-25' teaches of????
cuz one side u claim that only beliving in Jesus's blood that he died for your
sins is enough, but this verse is teaching different.
please explain that verse to me.

(Note: personally, I think that is such a good post that vpb ought to rep himself just this once

)

**vpb** · 07-18-2007

Hey, I happened to have in my email inbox, one of the deleted posts lost when the computer crashed. It is vpb's response to alapiana's last post:

ohh. thx

. I didn't know from where to start again my post. lol.

**MustafaMc** · 07-18-2007

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post793070

I am interested in reading responses to vpb's "lost" question regarding the passage in James that discusses faith and works.

**Keltoi** · 07-18-2007

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post793070

I am interested in reading responses to vpb's "lost" question regarding the passage in James that discusses faith and works.

The primary "controversy" behind this verse is that it seems to contradict the writings of Paul on the subject of faith vs. works. However, the issue is really what they mean when they use the word "works". To Paul, "works" refers to the Jewish code of law, or an adherence to outward acts of ritual to attain merit. To James, "works" are spontaneous acts of love that spring from the fruits of the Spirit. So really they are referring to two different things.

For James, "works" are the product of trusting and obeying Jesus Christ and are motivated by the Spirit. In other words, a faithful Christian will produce these works as a product of piety, not as a means to achieve salvation.

**vpb** · 07-19-2007

To James, "works" are spontaneous acts of love that spring from the fruits of the Spirit. So really they are referring to two different things.

I am sorry but work is work, love is not work, work is not love. Work is to do actions.

**Keltoi** · 07-19-2007

Originally Posted by vpb

I am sorry but work is work, love is not work, work is not love. Work is to do actions.

I don't think you understood the point. Works are actions, yes. However, there is a difference between works for salvation and works as a product of salvation. In the context of James, he is referring to works as a product of the Spirit. So if I am a faithful Christian, and have accepted Christ's salvation, I will produce these works as a result. I do not seek out good works in order to "earn" my way into Heaven, in other words.

**MustafaMc** · 07-20-2007

Originally Posted by Keltoi

The primary "controversy" behind this verse is that it seems to contradict the writings of Paul on the subject of faith vs. works. However, the issue is really what they mean when they use the word "works". To Paul, "works" refers to the Jewish code of law, or an adherence to outward acts of ritual to attain merit. To James, "works" are spontaneous acts of love that spring from the fruits of the Spirit. So really they are referring to two different things.

For James, "works" are the product of trusting and obeying Jesus Christ and are motivated by the Spirit. In other words, a faithful Christian will produce these works as a product of piety, not as a means to achieve salvation.

Yes, this is a very interesting interpretation of the passage. I believe that verse James 2:13 sets the stage for what follows: "because judgement without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgement." The Bible has the parable of the Good Samaritan and other verses that show how we treat or fellow humans is extremely important with spontaneous acts of love carrying tremendous weight as good deeds.

However, verses 2:21-22 put a slightly different twist on it: "Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did." Abraham was clearly not showing love towards his son by preparing to offer him as a sacrifice, rather he was being obedient to God.

This point illustrates a critical point of difference - Christians see that Muslims are trying to "earn" their way to Paradise with ritual prayer, fasting, obligatory charity and pilgrimage while Muslims see these as acts of obedience and submitting our wills to that of Allah. When we became Muslims we made a commitment to practice our faith and daily we strive to fulfill our obligations toward Allah. However, showing mercy also carries tremendous weight in Islam.

**Keltoi** · 07-20-2007

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

Yes, this is a very interesting interpretation of the passage. I believe that verse James 2:13 sets the stage for what follows: "because judgement without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgement." The Bible has the parable of the Good Samaritan and other verses that show how we treat or fellow humans is extremely important with spontaneous acts of love carrying tremendous weight as good deeds.

However, verses 2:21-22 put a slightly different twist on it: "Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did." Abraham was clearly not showing love towards his son by preparing to offer him as a sacrifice, rather he was being obedient to God.

This point illustrates a critical point of difference - Christians see that Muslims are trying to "earn" their way to Paradise with ritual prayer, fasting, obligatory charity and pilgrimage while Muslims see these as acts of obedience and submitting our wills to that of Allah. When we became Muslims we made a commitment to practice our faith and daily we strive to fulfill our obligations toward Allah. However, showing mercy also carries tremendous weight in Islam.

Then I would say Christians and Muslims have alot in common on this issue. Christians also believe that good works are a product of faith. I didn't state that Muslims were trying to "earn" their way into Heaven. I only pointed out that to Christians, good works alone will not achieve salvation, which I believe is the same belief in Islam.

**MustafaMc** · 07-20-2007

Originally Posted by Keltoi

Then I would say Christians and Muslims have alot in common on this issue. Christians also believe that good works are a product of faith. I didn't state that Muslims were trying to "earn" their way into Heaven. I only pointed out that to Christians, good works alone will not achieve salvation, which I believe is the same belief in Islam.

Yes, I agree with you that we believe the same that good works alone are not enough to achieve salvation. I am glad to have seen several points of agreement between us.:smile:

I apologize if it seemed that I was implying that you believed that we Muslims are trying to earn our salvation. Perhaps, I am a bit touchy on this issue as there are Christians on and off this forum who have used those very words and I wanted to seize the opportunity to clarify our position. Thank you for your understanding.:thankyou: