"Muslims discuss Christianity amongst other Muslims?" (OP)
As a former Catholic and born-again Christian... during the years before I have embraced Islam... I came to realize that the letters of Paul to the Romans, the Corinthians and etc... are not to be taken seriously.
One of the misleading ideologies he is preaching is that Love is never Jealous. - the reason this idea needs to be planted in our minds is so that to prepare the Christians for a much bigger sin.
To believed Paul about the Idea of LOVE being unjealous... is to believe that God is not a jealous GOD. - therefore - it will justify our Shirk practices... therefore - it will be guilt-free to believe the concept of Holy Trinity... making us unaware of one of the greatest sins which is unforgiveable by Allah (SWT).
We can sin all we want and repent later on... even if our sins is as many as the foam of the seas - Allah ir Rahman ir Raheem (Most Gracious, Most Merciful Allah) will forgive us... unless - and except the sin of SHIRK.
SHIRK - by definition is the practice of Associating others or partners or intercessors with Allah.
Old Testament #1. commandment (Torah): Thou shallt have no other GODS before Me.
New Testament (Bible): the greatest commandment: "Love God above all"
Final Testament (Qur'an): "There is no other God but Allah ALONE!"
And the touchstone of theology is the 1st Chapter in the Qur'an: Surrah Al Fatihah...
1. "In the name of Allah - most Gracious - most Merciful;
2. All praise is due to Allah - Lord of the worlds!;
3. The Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful;
4. Sovereign of the Day of Recompense;
5. It is You we worship, You we ask for help;
6. Guide us to the straight path;
7. The path of those whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked Your anger or those who are astray."
If you need to check if you are not straying away from Gods' commandment... then - see if your concepts fit under the 7 criterias above stated... in Surrah Al Fatihah - the opening of the Quran.
Another short Surrah which is actually the summary of 1/3 of the Holy Quran is the Surrah Al-Iklas...
This is a strong criteria of establishing pureness of your faith as believers of God Almighty.
Surrah Al-Iklas:
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Raheem!
1. Say; HE is ALLAH, ONE!
2. Allah; the Eternal Refuge!
3. He Neither BEGETS Nor is BORN!
4. Nor is there Any to HIM Any Equivalent!
Check again if your Roman-implanted subliminal ideas and concepts about God fits in this above stated Criteria - as mentioned by Allah himself.
The concept of Trinity is a Man-made concept inspired by Satan... it looks and sounds really good - but defnitely - designed for a long range plan of misdirection. This is Satans way... moreover, the marks of satan is written all-over the concept.
1. It defies Basic Logic... God the Father? God is God - cannot be Father since Fathers are a human atrribute. So God the Father is a false idea. Anyone here have an original bible? the one written right after the so-called death of Christ time? - not after 500 years. (They kept it from the world so they could edit it... subract one and add one making the Bible adulterated)
2. God the Son - another illogical atribute! God cannot be born - what would make the MOTHER? - Mother of God? - cannot be.... Straying tactic of Satan very much evident here.
3. God the Holy spirit... How can God become a combination of 2 created entities... Anything Holy is an abstract concept - it is merely a concept and not a conrete and physical idea. Spirit is a concrete idea but an abstract entity as well... Spirits are also part of Gods Creation... how can God be equal to his creation? - in the Qur'an - the Holy spirit is reffered to as the Angel Gabriel... or Gabriel Arch angel. He is the leader of Angels and He is always the one who is sent to guide all the authorized Messengers of God... He was also the one sent to announce the good news for the coming of the Jesus the Messiah to Mary - (Muslims call her Santa Maria). God cannot be an equal to the Holy Spirit... God is bigger and more than just the Holy Spirit. God's throne exceeds more than the farthest ends of the Universe - something above and beyond our unlimited imagination can grasp.
Man possess unlimited Imagination... but still - this is not even equal to an atoms weight to grasp the vastness of Gods infinity.
To claim the trinity concept... is to insult God.
I suggest... we should look at the history of the Christian Church... it's motives... it's tactics... - get to the real story. They killed the Man whom they thought was Jesus... and along with him, they killed all of his disciples....
Paul was never one of the original disciples... He is a Roman Soldier... an Intelligence Officer... whose mission is to infiltrate the Underground Christians. (Operation: Infiltrate, Adopt, Empathize and Influence)
Study their scripture and see how Rome can use it in the pursuit of a World Domination Plan. (Do you know where most of the Catholic contributions go to? and who is Tax Exempt with Diplomatic Immunity all over the world?) This was the time when Islam was the religion of majority of the world.
Was Peter ever a pope? - this is what the Romans wanted us to believe. they even portraid Peter sitting on a throne with a Key... in Michaelangelos sculpture in St. Peters Cistine Chappel in Rome. - a big lie.
THey murdered Peter... on a cross. And they even sent spies to make people respect the cross. How easily are people deluded.
But Truth crushed to earth shall rise again. And Truth placed on top of a Mountain of Lies - will make this mountain crumble to dust.
May Allah bless us with enlightenment, peace in finding and discovering truth and bless our families with good tidings...
I appreciate your honest opinion and feelings about Christianity... in fact I share the same view. But I agree with the sister.
Allah SWT gave us clear instruction in the Noble Qur'an thru his slave and servant Rasullullah (pbuh) to exercise religious tolerance with the Non-Muslims... particularly - and specifically describing and giving more emphasis with the People of the Book (i.e. the Christians)...
Most of the so called self-proclaimed Christians who hate anything Islam are really not the real Christians... Real Christians pocess religious tolerance.
The Qur'an describes these Christians as - humble people... they are not proud. You will know them once they hear the Qur'an recited to them... they react like they know - that this is a genuine, authentic words of Allah SWT.
Most of them are only biased due to the fact that they were bombarded by the Media which is not really controlled by real Christians... the Media programs them through Documentary Reporting and sensationalized journalism that portrays the terror and horror an Islamic Terrorrist can do. And they have come to brand us Muslims through association as potential suicide bombers.
How are they deluded by Satan. At any rate... they should not be treated as enemies... on the contrary, the Prophet Rasullullah (SAW) was instructed by Allah SWT to leave them alone specially when they are praying. They are our brothers according to Allah (SWT).
They are the nearest to our religion. If we show them due respect... they will respond. Remember, it is the duty of each and every Muslim to relay the Message and Warning of Allah about Paradise and Hell and we have his Ayats to back up our convictions. These Christians being the dominant Non-Muslims are our main target market (sorry for using corporate lingo.).
We are like salesmen... we are selling a product that we are ourselves using. If our clients or target customers don't see that we are benefiting from our products... they won't buy it.
Win win situation is our objective. We have to win them using Allahs' divine guidance, wisdom, charity and love and respect. Remember - if we save one Human life (it could also mean human soul or spirit) - it's as if we have saved the entire Humanity.
Satan is our enemy - not the Christians...
Take it from a former Catholic Seminarian and Born Again Christian.
May Allah increase our deen, iman and wisdom in our efforts in the cause of Allah SWT and our dawa.
Re: Questions about Christians. Requesting answers from Christians.
Salaam/peace;
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
For instance, I am a United Methodist pastor. .
Who is qualified to be a Sunday school teacher ?
In other forum , a Christian claimed that he is ….he always bashed Prophet Muhammed (p) & wrote the name as Moo-ham-head.
Once he wrote such a nasty post regarding marriage of Mother Aisha (ra ) with the Prophet . I asked him ,what ur Sunday school kids will think about u if they find out what kind of dirty language u use ?
What Churches tell their Pastors / Sunday school teachers about dealing with non-Christians ?
Verses all need ..specially for the life hereafter :sunny:
Now if God were to take men [immediately] to task for all the evil that they do [on earth],
He would not leave a single living creature upon its face.
However, He grants them respite until a term set:
but when the end of their term approaches, they can neither delay it by a single moment,
nor can they hasten it.
-Quran (16:61)
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
Re: Questions about Christians. Requesting answers from Christians.
format_quote Originally Posted by believer
But - Once a priest - always a priest... this is the slogan of all priests
in rare occassions perform exorcism.
---how they do it ? Have u ever watched this ? Sounds interesting ...also scary if really Satan comes
I read in a novel that when Satan kills anyone , he breaks his neck….one priest was killed while doing excorcism in that story. Do they still believe that Satan can kill someone ?
key was given to Peter
--also rock ? Not sure ..may be , Sis Jayda told me something like that Catholic church established on rock of Jesus (p) …that is God’s Church etc.
Last edited by Muslim Woman; 08-08-2007 at 04:08 PM.
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
Re: Questions about Christians. Requesting answers from Christians.
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace;
Who is qualified to be a Sunday school teacher ?
Seminarians who have underwent their first years in the Major or even Minor Seminary are sent to teach Cathecism... this is the equivalent of a Sunday School Service... Normally - only seminarians do this job.
In other forum , a Christian claimed that he is ….he always bashed Prophet Muhammed (p) & wrote the name as Moo-ham-head.
How deluded he is... if he only know the grave sin he is committing... Allah guides whom He wills
Once he wrote such a nasty post regarding marriage of Mother Aisha (ra ) with the Prophet . I asked him ,what ur Sunday school kids will think about u if they find out what kind of dirty language u use ?
Definitely - the kids will be scandalized... moreover - this is not a Christian Moral conduct or behaviour... in Philosophy 1 - we are taught about the Natural MOral Law as well as the Christian MOral Law... both these laws adhere to maintaining the common good. NOthing good about his behaviour.
What Churches tell their Pastors / Sunday school teachers about dealing with non-Christians ?
In the seminary I came from... we excercise religious tolerance... arguing or debating about religion is not really the cup of tea in my seminary... besides - it is not prescribed in Catholic Seminaries... they would argue and debate only with themselves about anything scholastic or academic....
Verses all need ..specially for the life hereafter :sunny:
Now if God were to take men [immediately] to task for all the evil that they do [on earth],
He would not leave a single living creature upon its face.
However, He grants them respite until a term set:
but when the end of their term approaches, they can neither delay it by a single moment,
nor can they hasten it.
-Quran (16:61)
Salaamu alaikum sister... the Blue fonts are my answers...
Re: "Muslims discuss Christianity amongst other Muslims?"
Very strong words.
We are like salesmen... we are selling a product that we are ourselves using. If our clients or target customers don't see that we are benefiting from our products... they won't buy it.
Win win situation is our objective. We have to win them using Allahs' divine guidance, wisdom, charity and love and respect. Remember - if we save one Human life (it could also mean human soul or spirit) - it's as if we have saved the entire Humanity.
Plus they are very true.
Those of us who are reverts did not become so because we were told we were evil, misguided, or anti-Muslim. we reverted simply because we saw the truth.
To be honest for over 50 years people that tried to tell me of the "evils" of Christianity only made me want to defend Christianity and put blinders on me that made it difficult to see the truth.
A strong verbal argument as to why a person should accept Islam, is more often counter productive. Islam is a message of love, understanding and acceptance. When we try to defend Islam with human strength, we can only fail. We need to defend and promote it through the truth and understanding Allah(swt) has revealed.
Re: Questions about Christians. Requesting answers from Christians.
format_quote Originally Posted by believer
...Definitely - the kids will be scandalized... moreover - this is not a Christian Moral conduct or behaviour...
i suspect that he was not a Sunday school teacher , not even a Christian. He always provoked Muslim by using offensive words against the Prophet (p).
It was very unusual .....even if he really hates Islam so much , he could have hidden his identity--- so that we don't get a bad impression about Christians .
U may say that because of him & another Christian---sadly he also claimed that he is missionary who served Muslim AIDS patience in Africa , used to write nasty posts.
I almost started hating all Christians because of these 2 so called followers of Jesus (p).
I guess , may be some people are active online ...trying to create misunderstanding among Muslims & Christians. Could it be possible ?
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
Re: Questions about Christians. Requesting answers from Christians.
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
---how they do it ? Have u ever watched this ? Sounds interesting ...also scary if really Satan comes
The reason we do Wudu is the same reason why Priests use "holy" water to drive away unseen spirits or demonic entities... As a believer - we have nothing to fear... Not even Satan - only Allah. It is only Allah who has the power to give life and take life and ressurect one to life again... only the Creator can destroy his creation... not another creation.
I read in a novel that when Satan kills anyone , he breaks his neck….one priest was killed while doing excorcism in that story. Do they still believe that Satan can kill someone ?
This is only probably a Hollywood Story... and if ever it was true... The said priest wasn't killed by Satan... he only have killed himself. For a person who is possesed by a demon... normally, the place or the area of that afflicted person is unclean... many harram materials around or harraam people. the fact that the person is overpowered by the demon is an indication that that place where that person is a demon infested area... meaning - angels have no presence there. If a priests would do battle with the jinns... he need to equip himself with his angels... but if He has no clear idea about the concept and reality of Guardian Angels... then he is coming into the Lions Den. ... Remember, Allah purifies and cleans this earth and his people with Rain... also representing a sprinkling water... water connotates cleansing... Ever wonder why a drunk or sleepy person when ever poured witha pail of water retains his normalcy back again? - the same law applies.
The answer is... Satan has no power over us unless we allow...
--also rock ? Not sure ..may be , Sis Jayda told me something like that Catholic church established on rock of Jesus (p) …that is God’s Church etc.
"Upon this rock I shall build my Church" - this is what Jesus (AS) said to Peter in front of the other disciples... it wasn't clear though is he was refering to the Boulder or the Hill where he is standing that time... But the Catholic utilized this statement and twisted it to their Advantage... they claimed that it was Rome that Jesus (As) that he was referring to... and Peter being the first Pope - according to them technically... I really find this hard to believe since they also crufcified Peter upside down... just outside Rome... The Key is just a symbol that the Romans invented to make a simple story look so glorious... this is actually done to make the Roman Pagan Religion integrated to the clandestine Christian Church built underground in Rome... this way - constantine will be able to conquer the world using Religion.... long story - some people might think I am theorizing a conspiracy again. Anyway, there is more proofs in the Quran that can back up what I percieve. Jesus actually meant... I believe - Upon this rock...(rock means planet Earth - not Rome).
Re: Questions about Christians. Requesting answers from Christians.
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
i suspect that he was not a Sunday school teacher , not even a Christian. He always provoked Muslim by using offensive words against the Prophet (p).
You're maybe right!
It was very unusual .....even if he really hates Islam so much , he could have hidden his identity--- so that we don't get a bad impression about Christians .
Or maybe it's not his real identity?
U may say that because of him & another Christian---sadly he also claimed that he is missionary who served Muslim AIDS patience in Africa , used to write nasty posts.
well... one's true color starts to surface sooner or later...
I almost started hating all Christians because of these 2 so called followers of Jesus (p).
Bear in mind... Hate is what satan want us Muslims to have in our hearts... don't go down to their level... moreover... No matter what religion a man or a woman belongs to - he or she will either be the good or the bad apple in the basket. A good one will never plant Bad seeds (confussion, restlessness, fear, hate, terror, argument, and the like)
A Bad One will always leave its' distinct mark...(hatred, fear, confussion, animosity, and the like.)
Good Ones also leave their distinct mark... (INSPIRATION)
I guess , may be some people are active online ...trying to create misunderstanding among Muslims & Christians. Could it be possible ?
Satan and his cohorts are never sleeping... Satan is like a mad dog... wanting to get everyone and many as much as possible... wether Muslim or Christian or Jew or HIndu or Atheists - he doesn't care... It's like a closing out sale... he needs to get as many customers to buy in. If there are people who are aimed in destroying the good relations betwen Muslims and Christians... which is not really a remote possibility... then it is each and every Muslims responsibility to counter it by using Allahs' prescribed guidance. These lost souls can still be saved... if they only know the truth.
Re: "Muslims discuss Christianity amongst other Muslims?"
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
To be honest for over 50 years people that tried to tell me of the "evils" of Christianity only made me want to defend Christianity and put blinders on me that made it difficult to see the truth.
A strong verbal argument as to why a person should accept Islam, is more often counter productive. Islam is a message of love, understanding and acceptance. When we try to defend Islam with human strength, we can only fail. We need to defend and promote it through the truth and understanding Allah(swt) has revealed.
To add... "jihad" means to strive... striving in the old days connotes... exerting ones physical strength... but as warfare has evolved into higher form... our very sense of judgement has been clouded by prejudice... As Lao Tzu in his Art of War book would say... If you know yourself but don't know the enemy.. you won half the battle... but if your know the enemy and you know yourself... then you already won the war. Present day Jihad could mean... winning souls by showing our life as examples. to imitate Christ is actually to embrace and live a life of Islam.
I don't know if this is appropriate right now but I feel like qouting the Holy Qur'an... this is a chapter which after I have read it - made me decide to do my Shahada.
Surah' al' Ma'idah 5: 82
"You will surely find the most intense of the people in animosity toward the believers to be the Jews and those who associate others with Allah; and you will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say, "WE ARE CHRISTIANS," That is because among them are PRIESTS and MONKS and Because THEY ARE NOT ARROGANT."
83: "And when they hear what has been revealed to the Messenger, you see their eyes overflowing with TEARS because of what they have recognized of the TRUTH. They say, "OUR LORD, WE HAVE BELIEVE, SO REGISTER US AMONG THE WITNESSES."
Oh what a beautiful revelation... and it felt like it was only yesterday that I have first encountered this verses.... and it is God himself saying it.
Woodrow... the call for prophethood is becoming stronger.
Re: "Muslims discuss Christianity amongst other Muslims?"
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Those of us who are reverts did not become so because we were told we were evil, misguided, or anti-Muslim. we reverted simply because we saw the truth.
To be honest for over 50 years people that tried to tell me of the "evils" of Christianity only made me want to defend Christianity and put blinders on me that made it difficult to see the truth.
.
Im at a loss for words......... dumbfounded....... i really didnt know that.
I mean it soooo makes logical sense, but in my case, the penny dropped (now im sure youve heard that one, being from texas and all....)
Re: Questions about Christians. Requesting answers from Christians.
--deleted--
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 08-09-2007 at 01:42 AM.
Reason: As the comment was a referral to this thread from another thread, it made no sense as a post in this thread.
Re: Questions about Christians. Requesting answers from Christians.
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
You two have been having an interesting conversation. I don't begruge anyone that. Maybe you would find it just as convenient to have the conversation here: Muslims Discuss Christiantiy Amongst Other Muslims.
I totally agree with you, however sometimes you lose urself in the coversation........ havent you ever 'lost track of time', as they say........
Re: Questions about Christians. Requesting answers from Christians.
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
bro believer , thank u so much for all answers but i guess it was wrong of me to ask u in this thread --
Sorry about that
Here current Christians are supposed to give ans --not the formers. Sorry if our Christian participants think we have hijacked their thread
Salaamualaikum sis;
no need to apologize... sometimes we get carried away due to our passion to our religion. Everything happens for a reason... there are no accidents... but only Allah knows best.
Sorry guys for going off topic.
May Allah be pleased with us and bless us all here.... Ameen.
Re: "Muslims discuss Christianity amongst other Muslims?"
I havent read any material or literature about verses in the Bible that indicated the coming of Prophet Muhammad (RAW)...
But when I was reading the Bible... comprehending its entire context - it was actually suggesting that I look into Islam.
I have encountered some verses which gives me the impression that Jesus Christ (pbuh) was living a life of a Muslim... the way he prayed... and especially about his answer when he was asked why his apostles didn't wash their hands when they ate.
Is there any written compilation of verses which talked about the coming of Islam and the way of Islam.
I haven't tried Google yet... and please don't tell me to Google it.
Re: "Muslims discuss Christianity amongst other Muslims?"
format_quote Originally Posted by believer
I havent read any material or literature about verses in the Bible that indicated the coming of Prophet Muhammad (RAW)...
But when I was reading the Bible... comprehending its entire context - it was actually suggesting that I look into Islam.
I have encountered some verses which gives me the impression that Jesus Christ (pbuh) was living a life of a Muslim... the way he prayed... and especially about his answer when he was asked why his apostles didn't wash their hands when they ate.
Is there any written compilation of verses which talked about the coming of Islam and the way of Islam.
I haven't tried Google yet... and please don't tell me to Google it.
Just my own opinion and from personal impressions. I find the comment:
Is there any written compilation of verses which talked about the coming of Islam and the way of Islam.
To be an erroneous view. Islam always was. Adam was Muslim. Therefore there is no foretelling of the advent of Islam, simply because it has always been from the first man onward. You can not foretell an existing event, you can only explain the event. I find that to some degree all prior scriptures have told us to submit to Allah(swt) and to worship Him alone. Some of the methodology as to how we should may have been altered or lost in older scriptures, but the message can still be seen, especially after you have seen the verification as to what the message is, in the Noble Qur'an.
I also feel the same as you do in this regard:
But when I was reading the Bible... comprehending its entire context - it was actually suggesting that I look into Islam.
Re: "Muslims discuss Christianity amongst other Muslims?"
format_quote Originally Posted by believer
Thanks Woodrow - it's always an enlightening experience crossing paths with you...
Just for the sake of discussion:
At what point in time was the word ISLAM used?... any idea?
It is also a pleasure to share views with you. I find it very enlightening to see where we have shared expeiences that led to the same conclusion.
Now to find the first usage of the word Islam. I doubt very much a verifiable source can be found as it probably predates written history.
Now to attempt to find the first verifiable writing of the word in Arabic, that can be done with a reasonable degree of accuracy.
We do know that the modern written Arabic of today had it's origins in about 300 CE
It is generally accepted that the Arabic alphabet developed from the script used for Nabataean, a dialect of Aramaic used in northern Arabia and what is now Jordan during roughly the thousand years before the start of the Islamic era. It seems apparent that Syriac also had some influence on its development. The earliest inscription that has been found that is identifiably Arabic is one in Sinai that dates from about A.D. 300. Another Semitic script which was in use at about the same time and which is found on inscriptions in southern Arabia is the origin of the alphabet now used for Amharic, the official language of Ethiopia.
With that said I believe that the first formal writing of the word Islam would have been at the time of Muhammad(PBUH). I do not see where there would have been any prior need for the word as worship was basicaly understood by both the Jews and Early Christians who did worship the one true God(swt). It was only after the time that what was given, had ceased to exist that there was a need for a specific word to designate Islam. The people earlier lived a life of Islam and it did not have to be designated as it was self explanatory. Just my humble view.
I really do not find the word Islam being written until the Hadiths
Tribute, Spoils, and Rulership (Kitab Al-Kharaj, Wal-Fai' Wal-Imarah)
Dawud :: Book 19 : Hadith 2928
Narrated Ghalib al-Qattan:
Ghalib quoted a man who stated on the authority of his father that his grandfather reported: They lived at one of the springs. When Islam reached them, the master of the spring offered his people one hundred camels if they embraced Islam. So they embraced Islam, and he distributed the camels among them. But it occurred to him that he should take the camels back from them.
I doubt if there was any need for a specific word until we began to be seen as different from others who claimed to be believers. Sort of like the Early Christians still called themselves Jews.
The meaning of the word Islam predates history. I am certain an equivalent word meaning: "Submission to God(swt)" exists in many ancient languages either as a single word or as a phrase.
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