"Muslims discuss Christianity amongst other Muslims?"

format_quote Originally Posted by believer

As a former Catholic and born-again Christian... during the years before I have embraced Islam... I came to realize that the letters of Paul to the Romans, the Corinthians and etc... are not to be taken seriously.

OK. Thank-you for your opinion. But, I am sorry, I was not able to tell what exactly was the nature of your question.

Did you have one about Christians that you were requesting an answer to from Christians?

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

OK. Thank-you for your opinion. But, I am sorry, I was not able to tell what exactly was the nature of your question.

Did you have one about Christians that you were requesting an answer to from Christians?

Sorry, I wasn't trying to ask a question earlier but merely attempting to shed some light to some of the faithful souls.... at any rate for the purpose of the topic of the thread. Q & A for christians, I would ask you GraceSeeker a question.

What is your concept of God? How often are you consciouss about God?

How do you think God wants to be worshipped and in what form or manner?...

Salaam

format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi

lol...now that is a new one. Paul was a Roman agent. Conspiracy theories are always fun.

I don't know if you have read the Bible thouroughly... but if you did... please try to grasp the context in its' entirety. Bearing i mind, to whom that particular chapter was addressed to; and who was writing it/ who translated it and who was speaking (God, Jesus or the writer).

If you understand Gods nature, you will already have a clue how the story line will go. Everything will be consistent and not conflicting.

The battle between Good and Evil started since Satan was sent out of paradise. spies, conspiracies (whatever you may call it), soldiers are all elements of this whole drama.

God doesn't have any problem about Satan... God in fact gave Satan a chance to roam the world and mislead as many souls as he can, except God chosen Servants. Satan is accursed anyway so he will only be dragging with him as much human souls as he can since on the day of judgement - he is going to be dammed anyway.

Satan is clearly the enemy of man. but many are deluded. The center of history doesn't revolve around Christianity alone. (I thought it was before)

I didn't hear about Paul as a roman spy from anywhere... this is just my own impression as I read the Bible.

I remeber one time, I came accross the "Celestine Prophecy" a new age book - I was so much interested about it I got to finish it in one sitting (cover to cover) - that was when I was exploring the new age cult.

When I became a born-again Christian... I read the Bible again but this time it was with more interest and passion. so I finished it from cover to cover and has been religiously reading it everyday... almost every hour - with the same degree as what kids are doing with a Harry Potter book.

This is how I came to see Pauls' real color. I used to work with a productivity company and I was trained to see the defference between trees and forests and to be able to look at every situation in all perspectives.

To say that there is a conspiracy theory doesnt apply with what I said. I am convinced with my own findings... it's time you do yours.

I really liked reading the Bible... theres so much values that can be picked from it... this is the reason Why Christians are considered to be the closest in religion to the Muslims.

The Qur'an tells the Muslims to leave the Christians alone especially when they are praying... also not to make debate with them... and to talk with them with using good words.

We intend to make our interactions an enlightening one. And hopefully be mutually beneficial to us all.

May God be pleased with us and bless us all and our families... Amen.

format_quote Originally Posted by dpartlow

Hi Mustafa MC,

I thought these passages might help elaborate the oneness of spirit and uniqueness of substance of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit:
Passages in Mark:


Mark 2.5ff: When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven." 6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" 8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...."--A rather strong statement of divine authority, and the context SHOWS that it was a blasphemous assertion IF He was NOT God!. Notice that He does not answer their charges with a "Hold on now! I am not claiming to be God! I am claiming something less!"--not at all!

Mark 2.28: So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."--Notice: Jesus has the authority to override the laws of the Sabbath.

Mark 8.31: He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. --Notice: very early identification with the messianic Servant of Isaiah.

Mark 8.38: If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."--Notice: Jesus identifies Himself with the exalted 2nd coming--even linked to the Father's glory (cf. Is 42.8: "My glory I will not give to another" said YHWH).

Mark 9.41: I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.--Notice: Jesus makes an explicit claim to Messiahship here ("Christ").

Mark 9:42: "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, --Notice that He is endorsing Himself as an appropriate object of religious faith! A rather important clue as to deity--cf. Jer 17.5: This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man.

Mark 11.3: If anyone asks you, `Why are you doing this?' tell him, 'The Lord needs it and will send it back here shortly.'" Notice how closely Jesus is linked to 'the Lord'. We cannot tell in the passage if it refers to Him or to His Father. [The same is true in 5.19-20...Jesus tells the demoniac to tell his family "what the Lord has done for him", and he tells them "what the Jesus did for him"--exact same linguistic construction and words!]

Mark 12.1-11: The parable of the Tenants. In this passage Jesus differentiates Himself from the religious leadership of Israel (i.e. "the wicked tenants"), with a claim to a UNIQUE Sonship-Heirship. So "He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, 'They will respect my son.' "But the tenants said to one another, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 8 So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.. He interprets this messianically in v.10-11, as does His enemies around Him (v.12). He is the UNIQUE Son and Heir of God--a rather high claim!

Mark 12.35-37: While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, "How is it that the teachers of the law say that the Christ is the son of David? 36 David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."' 37 David himself calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his son?"--Notice: this is the classic text on the two natures of Christ...Jesus, as messiah, is greater even than David!

Mark 13.26-27: "At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.--Notice: Jesus identifies himself with the Divine figure in Daniel 7.13, talks of his coming with 'great glory', calls the angels 'HIS angels', calls the elect "HIS elect", and somehow is able to gather them together from all places on the globe. There are quite a few strong deity claims in this little passage!

Mark 13.31: Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.--Notice--a rather exorbitant claim for a mere creature, eh?!
Mark 14.27: "You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written: "'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.' --Notice Jesus applies the messianic passage Zech 13.7 to himself.

Mark 14.62: Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62 "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."--Notice Christ claims to be both Son of God and the messianic Son of Man in Dan 7.13! Notice also that the High Priest in the next verse proclaims that this is blasphemy--an ascription of deity to that which is not god! Jesus' claims to be the Danielic messiah and to be the Son of God were understood by the 1st century Palestinian Jew to be claims to deity!

Hi dpartlow!

again, I am not speaking in behalf of scholars view.... this is only as to how the Bible and the Qur'an impresses its context in my limited brain.

If you will notice... Jesus speaks in the 1st person tense as if God is speaking Himself. This is common all throughout the Bible.

As one of the great Messengers appointed by God to be the MESSIAH... Jesus is created in the Manner Adam was created... the only difference between Jesus and Adam is Adam have neither a Father or a Mother. Jesus on the other hand has a Mother... moreover a Virgin Mother. If there is anyone more worthy to be called as the Son of God - it cannot be EZRA nor Jesus... but ADAM himself.

Now, with Jesus' case is special... As a Messiah, he was sent on a special mission. The main objective was... to remind the sinners about the essence of Worshipping One God... The God of Abraham. Given this special authority, Jesus can speak with Authority... I wonder how he really spoke in the true form of Aramaic? It is a fact that English cannot do justice for the real forms of Aramaic nor Arabic nor Hebrew.

The point is - Jesus (pbuh) can speak on behalf of God at that time.

Haven't you noticed how an elderly Man or woman crossing the street would address a young fellow who have assisted Him or Her? "They normally say... "Thank you Son!"

In Asia... it is a common practice for elders to call children as son or daughter... and vice versa. English is a limited language... it cannot really portray the exact gramatical tenses of the original form.

Whenever, Jesus would be talking in the first person tense as God - Bear in Mind... He is using a language in the Asiatic Region... not English.

Another example would be...

The big boss went for a vacation... he delegated everything - full responsibility and authority to his assistant GM. Assistant GM talks with supervisor... can you imagine how difficult it would be if this Assistant GM will be using the second person tense in his conversations to his subordinates. It is permissible for him to talk as if he is also the boss. - but it doesn't necessarily mean that He and the Boss is One being. But He is allowed to claim that "I and the Boss are one and the same when it comes to this particular authority..."

We need to expand our comprehension in assimilating the English BIble.

Another thing... I haven't found any proof that Jesus directly commanded us to worship him.

The concept of the trinity is vague... and it holds no proof (according to how I comprehended the Bibles entire context)...

While on the other hand.... the Qur'an vividly and clearly provides proof and a CLEAR Criteria of Who Really is GOD.

This is the 112th Chapter... the Chapter named: PURIFICATION

In Arabic: "Surrah' Al'Iklas"

In the name of Allah the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful...

1. Say: HE IS ALLAH.... ONE!
2. ALLAH, the ETERNAL REFUGE!
3. HE NEITHER BEGETS NOR IS BORN!
4. Nor is there to HIM ANY EQUIVALENT!


There it is! God Described Himself in only 4 lines!!!

Plain and simple... Straightforward! ... Not Confusing! .... NOr is it Mind Boggling!

How do you know if something originates from Satan?

I will give you one trademark... this is common in everything that Satan wants to feed the Universal consciouss Minds of the human race... CONFUSSION.

Why?

"Divide and Rule Principle" - it's one of the oldest tricks in his book. He's done it before... He'll do it again and again. Why? because it Works!

Dear Faithful!

Seek knowledge and Seek it with open mind... open heart... and open eyes.

Salaam

Again - this is just my own perception. If I am wrong... I am always open for further enlightenment.

May Allah be pleased with us all and Bless us always including our Families.

[QUOTE=Grace Seeker;802775]I believe that God is the maker of heaven and earth. I believe that God is spirit, being neither male nor female, but that God created us in his (sorry, for the anthropomorphizing, but I cannot bring myself to call God "it" which is the only other pronoun I have available to me in English)...but that God created us in his own image. And his desire was and is to live in perfect fellowship with us. I believe that this fellowship has broken by sin which all of us are guilty of, for we all fall short of God's glory. I believe that in spite of our corporate and personal sinfulness God still desires to have us joined to him and sent us prophets to direct us back to walk in his ways. Yet, even with such guidance none of us is still perfect or holy as God is holy and he still desires that we have this type of righteousness in our lives. On our own power such righteousness is unattainable. So God has acted to confer his righteousness to us. Rather than merely wooing people to himself, God took the initiative to come to us, to show us and offer us a way back to himself. God came to live and dwell among us, even going so far as to manifest himself in the flesh and dwell among us. God did this in the person of Jesus who was not just a human being but God incarnate (in the flesh) among us. I believe that Jesus in his one person thus had two natures being both 100% human and 100% divine. (Yes, I know that 100 + 100 = 200, and with mere humans this would be impossible, but with God nothing is impossible.) I also believe that God being God and omnipresent was entirely manifest in the person of Jesus and yet was not absent from any other place in which may also always be found. I believe that Jesus, being human, was tempted as we are, but that he did not succumb to any temptation and lived a sinless life. I believe that he offered this sinless life as an atonement (payment) for the sins of all humanity. I believe that offering took place on the cross and that there God gave up his life for us humans. (I do not blame people who find this too difficult to believe, but I do believe it to be true.) I believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead and by this resurrection shows to us the power that God has over not only life but also death. I believe that the sin I spoke of earlier that all humans have in their lives creates within us a type of spiritual death. I believe that only God is able to resurrect us to spiritual life from that death. I believe that those who trust God to do this will find that God is trustworthy and does do this, and that God does this by sharing his own Holy Spirit with us. (By the way, I do not believe this is a different God, and certainly not a creature created by God, it is just a sharing of God's self with us.) Thus, not in our own power, but in God's power, those who place their faith in God's work of salvation will find themselves united to God and able to experience full fellowship with him as he originally intended for us to have with him when he created humankind. Our lives being joined to God's we find new life in him that never ends. Thus, though I know that my earthly life will come to an end, I believe that my spiritual life having been resurrected from spiritual death will never die and that God will give life to me in it (in some type of spiritual body that is still a mystery to me) in order that I might spend eternity with him as he created me to do.[/QUOTE]


Dear GraceSeeker;

Amen to that... you remind me of myself before I embraced Islam. I share exactly the same concept of God before.

However, these are actually the concept of what the Roman Church claims and is preaching to the rest of christianity no matter what their sect is.

However, when I read the 3rd to the last Chapter of the Qur'an which is the 112th entitled... PURIFICATION... (Surrah' Al' Iklas)

My concept of God was rectified.

If you haven't read it... I really do recommend it. I am pretty sure you'll appreciate it.

At any rate.. it goes like this.

CHAPTER 112 - PURIFICATION

"In the name of Allah the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful!"

1. Say: "HE IS ALLAH, ONE!"

2. "ALLAH, THE ETERNAL REFUGE!"

3. "HE NEITHER BEGETS NOR IS BORN!"

4. "NOR IS THERE TO HIM ANY EQUIVALENT."


That's it! The concept of God - according to God (not according to emperror constantine or pope Greg.)

This Chapter is also known as the TOUCH STONE of THEOLOGY... why? because... if any one claims that this or that is their God... all they have to do is test it with these 4 Criterions. Sort of an Acid Test... If their God or concept of God passes all 4! - The He is God.


By the way, all the ones from your statement which I colored RED are really OK... those in BLUE are debatable.... those in BLACK...means (I respect your opinion).


May Allah Bless this as a beneficial enlightenment among the pious believers... Ameen!

format_quote Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam

I didnt mean to say it in a rude way or anything, but i wanted to disguise the word so my comment wont be banned by the mods. Anyway... very interesting.
How long have you been a revert brother?

Salaamu alaikum warahmatullah Sister!

I discovered Islam last September 2006... just before Ramadan... Before I went to Saudi... I have always wondered where I could get myself a Qur'an? It was impossible to get one from where I came from... My coleagues are mostly priests - already. I have been in the company of priests like - all of my life. However - the life of other priests in some parts of the world maybe different from my part of the world since there is more interaction between them and the community.

Thank you so much sister for asking.

Allah Hafiz!

format_quote Originally Posted by believer

Salaamu alaikum warahmatullah Sister!

I discovered Islam last September 2006... just before Ramadan... Before I went to Saudi... I have always wondered where I could get myself a Qur'an? It was impossible to get one from where I came from... My coleagues are mostly priests - already. I have been in the company of priests like - all of my life. However - the life of other priests in some parts of the world maybe different from my part of the world since there is more interaction between them and the community.

Thank you so much sister for asking.

Allah Hafiz!

What amazes me is the people that are the most strongest in their faith, are the ones to revert back to Islam.....
A muslim's fundamental belief is in all four books and most people i speak to (non-muslim) are shocked to know this. Do you think this is what may draw people back to Islam, the religiong they were born with??

Salaamualaikum warahmatuhlahi wabarakathu Woodrow!

I have a confession to make... the first time I read your posts... I actually thought you were Sheik Yussuf Estes.

Then, from your brief story of Reversion - I found out your not.

As I read more of your posts... I am actually feeling like I am hearing myself - hmmm... about 10 to 20 years from now. (make it 5)

I am really blessed to have encountered you - a senior revert. We cannot be siamese twins. :-)

All praise and glory is due to Allah alone! No one has the right to be worshipped but He! May Allah bless you more and increase your iman and deen as well as your family! Alhamdullillah! Thank you Allah - for bringing me in the company of the righteous!... Ameen!

format_quote Originally Posted by Ebtisweetsam

What amazes me is the people that are the most strongest in their faith, are the ones to revert back to Islam.....

I never really thought about that... perhaps, maybe - because people are the same everywhere... anywhere... or in any religion... There are those who are some would say religious... and spiritual... and some who are seekers of truth.

People who are considered seekers of truth are normally deep and free thinkers... they have a stronger passion and an unsatiable thirst for knowledge - eventually wisdom.

there is a progression which happens - but I don't know what the technical term for it but... it goes like this.

As a child; and when one knows little... he tends to know more... so he reads more...

As one grow older... He has read more... but only to realize that - He still needs to know more....

As one knows almost everything already... He comes to the point of realizing that - He actually learned nothing.

Then He comes to the point of unlearning everything. some would call this stage as the stage of wisdom.

But after this stage... a Man comes to terms with examining his very own existense... what on earth is he doing in this piece of land? what is his purpose? what happens next?...

This Void is so real and there is no religion in the world that can fill this gap except Islam...

For a Non-Muslim who has experienced this... he will naturally go into complete Surrender and submission to a Higher Power. something He has no control over... and something he is yet to discover... not by Himself... but by the guidance of this Higher Power with which he realized he has submitted into...

When this Man finally gets his hands on the Qur'an... then... the rest will only be History.

The Qur'an is more than sufficient...

I had a library of books before... I don't need it anymore. Allahu Akbar!


Mashallah!

Mods... I accidentally - clicked on the link that says unsubscribe to this thread... how do I undo it?...

At any rate...

With the Catholic Church... the term VOCARE or VOCATION is the keyword for inviting High-School Students in the Priesthood... Vocation (or Calling) and they have posters that say - "Many are called but few are chosen".

Students will take an entrance exam... wherein a certain IQ can qualify them for the Minor Seminary. There are three major types of Priesthoods in the Catholic church... 1. Secular, 2. Religious/ Contemplative, 3. Missionaries

The Catholic has a heirarchy....

The Pope, The Papal Nuncio, The Cardinals, The Bishops, The Vicar Generals, The Parish Priest, The Assistant Parish Priests, The Deacons, Regents and then the Seminarians...

In the Religious Order and spiritual Contemplatives: There are Missionary Brothers, Missionary Priests & Monks (i.e., Franciscan Order of Monks, Bennedictine Abbey, etc.) The priests in this order are normally living in convents or schools or Monasteries... they are also the ones frequently assigned for overseas missions all over the world.

The Secular Order are those Priests who become Parish Priests... similar to Pastors... they maintain the local Churches which is under a Vicarate.... vicarates are under the control of a Bishop... and in every country - all Bishops are under the Cardinal.

The Parish Priests maintains the local churches and has more interaction with the local community. to become a (secular) priest... one applies in the Cathedral to the Bishops House... they will take a test supervised by the Restor - a resident priest. This is normally IQ Test only.

The Curricullum consists of Philosophy in the Minor Seminary... and once you finished Philosophy, you enter the Major Seminary for Theology. You can also take up any other course in Management, Political Science, Psychology, etc. while you're taking up the 2 major courses. Normally, these courses are taken in the big universities... other courses are learned in the seminary. Mostly seminaries require internship... but the one I entered into was experimental at that time and instead of keeping the seminarians inside the seminary... we were given the liberty to interact with outside communities as part of our formation... (the logic behind is - you cannot love something you don't know).

after 8 years of studying. and doing apostolate missions (doing service and living in certain communities).. one may still pursue other studies or discipline or may take up his Regency status... Regency is normally 2 years - outside the seminary. This 2 years will determine if you're really for the priesthood or not. And once you are fully convinced to embrace the vow of celibacy... then you can be ordained. The Ordination ceremony is a big event... it's much bigger than a normal marriage celebration.

With regards to priests commiting a grave offense or scandal. The church or Bishop confers this matter with the Cardinal and the Bishops conference... they can remove the powers of officiating Sunday Mass Service or even strip the priest of his parish position. But - Once a priest - always a priest... this is the slogan of all priests... and They can still baptize, perform burial rites, or prayers for the sick in their death beds, bless homes and sometimes... in rare occassions perform exorcism.


The Catholics Church believes that we are the only ones authorized by Jesus since the key was given to Peter... and Peter was considered as the first Pope. They considered all Non-Catholics as Protestants... Catholic also in definition means UNIVERSAL.

Secular Priests are considered to be in the elite members of society... they are normally invited to big affairs... however, they are normally moderate in their attendance and remain as pious to the eyes of the masses.

Priests drink alchohol... this is normal... since the wine in the mass is a spanish made MOMPO (spanish Red Table wine) - it contains alchohol. But it is rare to see a priest drinking beer... however, I know many but only in private parties.

Anyway, priests are also human so they shouldn't be treated any differently.

format_quote Originally Posted by believer

Mods... I accidentally - clicked on the link that says unsubscribe to this thread... how do I undo it?...

At the top of the thread you will see a button for "thread tools". Click on it and there will be a place to subscribe or unsubscribe to the thread as you prefer.

They [the Catholic church] consider all Non-Catholics as Protestants

Not quite. The Catholic church recognizes the Orthodox or Eastern Rite churches as being non-Catholic and they do not mean them when they speak of Protestants.

Thank you GraceSeeker...

Yes, you're right - I forgot to mention about the Orthodox Churches... Catholic do not treat them as protestants... you may add as well as the Jews and the Muslims.

Thanks so much for that one... I stand corrected.

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow

There is truth in that statement. remember, many of us who are reverts were very strong in our birth faith. we have embraced Islam because we were searching for the true means of worshiping allah(swt). We came to Islam out of love for Allah(swt) and not because we were born as practicing Muslims.



Those of us who revert, are seekers. we have an insatiable appetite to learn the true message of the 4 books. Personally, I believe it only makes sense that the true message will be found in the true writings of the 4 books and that the message was the same message when it was originally written.




It is a simple one word answer: TRUTH Us reverts are like moths circling a light (TRUTH). We will go to were we see the light and that light is shinning brightest in Islam.

Mashallah Akhi, Ur words are touching.... enshallah you affected other people too with ur words.

format_quote Originally Posted by believer

As a child; and when one knows little... he tends to know more... so he reads more...

As one grow older... He has read more... but only to realize that - He still needs to know more....

As one knows almost everything already... He comes to the point of realizing that - He actually learned nothing.

Mashallah!

Subhanallah , the Prophet PBUH told us to 'seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave' for a reason.... you never stop learning.

Mashallah brother i couldnt have said it better myself.
Somtimes we have to be patient with the Jaahaliyya.... we are nothing compared with what the ummah before us faced.
If Allah SWT chooses Islam for someone it will happen, our part is to do our da'wah and leave the rest up to AllahSWT