I often hear about Atheism have some sort of ideological belief, which would imply that there is a value system, ethical model and conduct and some sort of rudimentary belief system.
For those who argue it, I am curious exactly what this mysterious atheist ideology consists of.
You've questioned my logic, now I want to question yours.
If you believe that the universe is always expanding, then if you turn the clock, at some point in time, there must've been a collective lump of this matter that always so expand, no?
Let me state the points again.
1) Something cannot be created from nothing
2) The Universe is always expanding (which is to say that there was a time when it was not, and no, I'm not stating the Big bang theory here, I'm simply taking meaning from your own words)
Observing these two points, tell me what conclusion can you make of it.
Perhaps, but redundancies, junk DNA, and physical weakness does hurt the Perfect Creator claim.
I don't see how, If Im able to bake a cake to perfection, why can't I also bake it to imperfection. Rather, to assume that him being limitless means that he must create everything to 1 standard, is rather nullifying him being the greatest creator as thats setting a limit on God.
We can't explain why he did what he did, but we can claim that he has the capability to do so and having the capability to do so in no means makes him any less limitless.
Fight in the way of God, against those who fight against you, drive them out of the places they have drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. Fight them, until persecution is no more, and Religion is for God. But if they stop, let there be no war.
You've questioned my logic, now I want to question yours.
If you believe that the universe is always expanding, then if you turn the clock, at some point in time, there must've been a collective lump of this matter that always so expand, no?
Let me state the points again.
1) Something cannot be created from nothing
2) The Universe is always expanding (which is to say that there was a time when it was not)
Observing these two points, tell me what conclusion can you make of it.
That there was a time in which the universe was not expanding.
You do not see infinity in 'everything that exists'?
I don't see infinity in ephemera.. further intensified by the fact that the observer as well as the observed is of a certain life span-- you are only functional (as between birth and death) and that holds true for eveything in our closed universe... . There IS NO INFINITY in that which by definition 'Time without end' The only self-professed 'time without end' as cited to you from the Quran and the Hadith prior, is God himself!
Many totalitarian systems involve personality cults or formulate the idea of obedience towards the state.
obeisance to the state has positively nothing to do with obedience toward God! One expiates your foolishness and the other sustains it.
I was referring to the fact that if worship was intrinsic then dictatorships and totalitarian states which involve worship, ritual or obedience towards the state would be more successful.
I am not following!
I have been doing just that. You have been the person referring to the Design Argument and asserting that worship is innate.
Again, I maintain if you assert something is infinite and eternal and you reference us to the 'universe' when doing so.. you must account for everything that inahbits such a universe to make your argument complete. You can't neglect the parts that don't appeal to you, when the very crux of the matter is very much contingent on the sum of its details!
And yes worship is innate... you just choose to worship life, worship money, you've loan something in your life eminence and stands out above all else.. that is your God! a simple case of displacement.. You are after all human and bound by the human condition... just one putting a different title on your priorities!
No reason whatsoever to believe that it is here for any specific purpose.
That doesn't flow with the logic of all things in existence. If everything has a function and a purpose.. (which it does), then one can safely assume so does our purpose here!
Yes I can, ex nihilo, nihil fit.
There you go.
what an unsuccessful effort.. It doesn't really mean anything to me or 93% of humanity.. I say that because atheists make up 7% of the population and if I am to safely assume all atheists can draw some sort of gratification of your said statement, its effect is very negligible...
But existence itself would still be other than life.
what does that mean?
I have considered the Design Argument.
I have also dismissed it.
I feel the same of your 'ex nihilo' except in the scheme of things one holds increasing weightiness while the other can be safely discarded!
peace!
Last edited by جوري; 09-05-2007 at 01:30 AM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
That there was a time in which the universe was not expanding.
Something we both agree on.
You've stated that the Universe is eternal. Thus, it is also right to say that this lump of collective matter has 'always' existed as collective matter. Yes?
(In other words, there was nothing prior to this 'lump of matter' it has always existed as such)
If you derive any other conclusion then it doesn't agree with the statement that the universe is always expanding. Because when something is always expanding, it cannot contract. Therefore, the lump could've never been formed. Since we state the universe expands, it is reasonable to say that the lump couldn't have come about any other way.
Atheism is all rhetoric and no substance, Fact, they believe in somthing that not only can they not explain its cause, it is nigh impossible to.
The day an atheist uses substance will truly be the end of the world.
You and Skavau are clearly working from different definitions of "atheism".
Atheism as I define it and as I assume Skavau defines it given his posts means a lack of belief in Gods. That means atheism can by definition have NO rehtoric, or anything else. Its a lack of belief, nothing more.
You seem to be using "atheist" in its other popular meaning, the belief that there can be no Gods. As Skavau admitted, you can't be 100% certain of that belief in EXACTLY the same way you can't be 100%certain other ridiculus things don't exist like the celestial tea pot or invisible pink unicorn.
* If you insist that you believe in this absurdum even when you don't, your opponent will often realize your dishonesty and this will damage mutual trust in the debate.
I refuse to believe that even the most far gone theists honestly believe the atheist believes in the flying spagheti monster. It should be obvious that the comparison is to show the fatal flaw in the theists claim that God can not be disproved and therefore God is likely to exist or is likely to exist or should be entertained as plausible.
* Even though the argument is brought forward because of the analogy, to insist that it is equal is offensive. Let's not forget we both agree it's absurd, so in effect you are calling the opponents view equal to absurd. I'd say that's rather offensive.
You've just completely blurred the line between personal attack and rational debate. If your ideas are ridiculus they should be exposed as such through apt comparisons of logic. That is not a personal attack and it is only offensive if the person listening decides to cling to the irrational idea despite the obvious irrationality (instead of defending it as not irrational and logically explaining away the analogy as false).
That makes the false assumption that our biology should be perfect if God exists .
Very good point.
It could just as easily be that God formed us as a stepping stone or experiment as he worked up to the real perfect creation that is actually elsewhere in the universe.
That'd explain why God interacted with us so much in biblical times but not since. He's moved on to his next project.
it is our belief in the Quran and Muhammad sallallahi alaihi wasallaam which leads us to our answers, and which moulds our logic into the understanding we have arrived at to reach the said answers. Atheists have no manual/instructions/guidance so they will tamper with ideologies till the end of time.
To us it makes perfect sense that Allah is indeed the creator of everything, and this world is indeed a test and we will one day return to Allah to answer for our misdeeds thus creating a perfect justice system but to the atheist the Quran or Hadith are not authentic, they see little justice and corruption is rampant. The ideologies atheists have are never ending, this pool of confusion will continue till the end of time...
Last edited by IbnAbdulHakim; 09-05-2007 at 11:02 AM.
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My tears testify that i have a heart
yet i feel me and shaytan never part
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it is our belief in the Quran and Muhammad sallallahi alaihi wasallaam which leads us to our answers, and which moulds our logic into the understanding we have arrived at to reach the said answers. Atheists have no manual/instructions/guidance so they will tamper with ideologies till the end of time.
.....The ideologies atheists have are never ending, this pool of confusion will continue till the end of time...
I think, "and im sure many other atheists agree" that we have the ability to improve ourselves this way. If your stuck with dogma, your stuck with it even if its bad or outdated. So sure you have yours and it will stay however your taught its supposed to be. We can improve and adapt. We can grow and gain.
Many atheists manage to be good without god. Jails tend to reflect the society and faith balance that they serve, they are not filled by athiests but tend to represent the belief percentage of it's cultures.
Levels of religiosity by countries make stark reading though, contries with high levels of religious belief and worship tend to have higher rates of murder, high infant mortality, STD's & teen pregnancy.
A recent study (in press) indicates that non-religious people tend to have greater altruism
^ i understand your logic, but the way i see it is that you will only reach the best stage, and will have improved the most which is within your capacity, when you find islam and realise what is and has always been right in front of your eyes which is the truth.
only experience will tell, only circumstances will hint to us just what lifes true purpose is.
to put it simply, i believe we all have been looking for whats most correct all our lives, but to find it takes certain actions, whoever performs those actions are bestowed a certain understanding, and all understanding is from Allah.
as the great imam ash-shafi'ee had stated quite correctly:
"knowledge (of truth and islam) is not bestowed upon a rebel (one who sins and exceeds the boundaries)".
an atheist will remain an atheist until God chooses otherwise
truelly Allah guides whom he wills
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My tears testify that i have a heart
yet i feel me and shaytan never part
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Hang of wilberhaum, IbnAbdulHakim was a bit ambigous with his post - so before you go onto how can God send you to hell if its up to him if you go to hell or not by making you a believer, I shall step in , sorry I know Im a party pooper.
Truth is, everyone has free will to be atheist or not, Allah won't **** you to be atheist, but rather ego/closed mindedness/arrogance/pride/hypocricy - not saying you have these characteristics but those are the characteristics that will **** one to hell.
What it means by Allah will guide whom he wills, should not be seen as that a person is predetermined by Allahs choice if they are a believer or not.
The blanked out word begins with D and ends with N and has an AM in the middle .
Fight in the way of God, against those who fight against you, drive them out of the places they have drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. Fight them, until persecution is no more, and Religion is for God. But if they stop, let there be no war.
Hang of wilberhaum, IbnAbdulHakim was a bit ambigous with his post - so before you go onto how can God send you to hell if its up to him if you go to hell or not by making you a believer, I shall step in , sorry I know Im a party pooper.
Truth is, everyone has free will to be atheist or not, Allah won't **** you to be atheist, but rather ego/closed mindedness/arrogance/pride/hypocricy - not saying you have these characteristics but those are the characteristics that will **** one to hell.
What it means by Allah will guide whom he wills, should not be seen as that a person is predetermined by Allahs choice if they are a believer or not.
The blanked out word begins with D and ends with N and has an AM in the middle .
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That makes the false assumption that our biology should be perfect if God exists.
, sorry I know Im a party pooper
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