I've just watched an interesting documentary broadcast by the BBC about Muslims (resident in the UK) converting to Christianity (did any body else happen to see it?). Some of the converts have been subject to violent attacks by other Muslims who disapprove with the conversion. I wonder what people thought about this given that many widely available Islamic texts actively encourage violent acts to those who apostatise.
muslims must obey the laws of the countries that they live in so long as they do not force them to do something forbidden in islam, in which case they are supposed to emigrate.
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
Forgive me this offtopic, but what about situations of muslim apostates in non muslim countries, e.g Europe or USA? Do muslims have right to chase them and assasinate or they should be left alone?
Simple answer, no.
However if they are immigrants to the US or Europe and are doing something that is considered treacherous to their home country, there may be efforts to have them extradited to their home country for trial.
just a simple question, no need to answer:
Why would a sound man, who believes in one True God, abandon his belief by starting believing in God's servant?
PS I'm referring to the passages in the Bible where Jesus (peace upon him) is described (with the utmost clarity) as God's servant?
What does not make sense to me, is that a religious system that claimed no person was compelled to worship other than their conscience would have the sort of laws implied here:
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
in a true Islamic country, it [apostacy from Islam] could easily be treason. there is more involved than simply not believing Muhammad(BBUH) is a Prophet(PBUH).
While Sharia law does permit capital punishment, it is only under specific conditions that it can be applied. The normal quiet apostate who is not trying to undermine the country is not in danger of the death penalty, but chances are his family and friends are not going to be very nice to him.
Of course, a person practicing Christianity is going to be compelled by those very beliefs to share his faith with others in order that he might do as Jesus has commanded and make disciples of all nations.
Last edited by Ibn Abi Ahmed; 10-31-2007 at 02:47 AM.
Reason: Edited out since he said "no need to answer"
Note: (to brother ubaidullah)
I only replied in response to graceseeker claim otherwise I would have left it alone
format_quote Originally Posted by MadeenJibreel
Peace,
just a simple question, no need to answer: Why would a sound man, who believes in one True God, abandon his belief by starting believing in God's servant?
PS I'm referring to the passages in the Bible where Jesus (peace upon him) is described (with the utmost clarity) as God's servant?
answer is just as simple (btw. good riddance to bad rubbish)
I have seen some layabout lazy kids, fromm so so muslim families who converted in exchange for free council housing and shown ways to sponge off the taxpayer
I have seen refugees convert in exchange for getting help from church in tricking the home office to grant them leave to remain in U.K +free housing and training to sponge off the state.
rather than finding God in Jesus they found a way to live of others and not have to suffer any hardships in finding halal methods of earning a living.
answer is just as simple (btw. good riddance to bad rubbish)
I have seen some layabout lazy kids, fromm so so muslim families who converted in exchange for free council housing and shown ways to sponge off the taxpayer
I have seen refugees convert in exchange for getting help from church in tricking the home office to grant them leave to remain in U.K +free housing and training to sponge off the state.
rather than finding God in Jesus they found a way to live of others and not have to suffer any hardships in obtaining halal methods of earning a living.
Very good answer. Now that I think of it, I have met a few like that.
It was a situation like this:
I have seen refugees convert in exchange for getting help from church in tricking the home office to grant them leave to remain in U.K +free housing and training to sponge off the state.
However, it was here in the USA. the man claimed to be Muslim, probably still does. but he has/had some questionable habits involving alcohol and drugs. Last I saw him he was converting to a different church almost weekly, usually getting some groceries, and some spending money.
Very good answer. Now that I think of it, I have met a few like that.
It was a situation like this:
However, it was here in the USA. the man claimed to be Muslim, probably still does. but he has/had some questionable habits involving alcohol and drugs. Last I saw him he was converting to a different church almost weekly, usually getting some groceries, and some spending money.
I agree good riddance to bad rubbish.
Indeed people can convert for all sorts of reasons. But among them may also be an awareness that Jesus actually is all that the Gospels declare him to be. Then it would also make sense for a person so convicted by that truth to leave behind a faith that denies these things about Jesus and become part of one that affirms them. Not only would this be sound, it would be completely ludicrous to remain a part of a religion which taught that something you believe to be true was a lie.
So, just as one may convert from Christianity to Islam if one becomes convinced that the claims of Christianity are false and Islam true with respect to Jesus. So, one may convert the from Islam to Christianity if one becomes convinced that the opposite it true with respect to Jesus.
Note: (to brother ubaidullah)
I only replied in response to graceseeker claim otherwise I would have left it alone
answer is just as simple (btw. good riddance to bad rubbish)
I have seen some layabout lazy kids, fromm so so muslim families who converted in exchange for free council housing and shown ways to sponge off the taxpayer
I have seen refugees convert in exchange for getting help from church in tricking the home office to grant them leave to remain in U.K +free housing and training to sponge off the state.
rather than finding God in Jesus they found a way to live of others and not have to suffer any hardships in finding halal methods of earning a living.
I think you didn't get my question akhi - I'm not talking about folks who "convert to the outside world", I'm talking about what they really believe in. So how, in Allah's Name, can a man leave the Truth of Islam for a religion (Christianity), which is so messed up nowadays, that not even the Christians know any more what's real and what's unreal or fake or fabrication or delusion or just a bad dream.
PS If one says that "they converted for some worldly reason", then I say they never truly believed in the first place. Then at least to say - they were munafeequun.
So, just as one may convert from Christianity to Islam if one becomes convinced that the claims of Christianity are false and Islam true with respect to Jesus. So, one may convert the from Islam to Christianity if one becomes convinced that the opposite it true with respect to Jesus.
I agree with that. I believe both of our faiths, consider hypocrisy as a very grave sin.
If a person sincerely believes in another faith than the one he is practicing, his first duty should be to try to reconcile with his current faith and then if he sincerely believes his religion is false, he has left his religion in his intent and heart already.
:So how, in Allah's Name, can a man leave the Truth of Islam for a religion (Christianity), which is so messed up nowadays, that not even the Christians know any more what's real and what's unreal or fake or fabrication or delusion or just a bad dream.
Might it be, that we don't see it to be as messed up as you do?
Since I was never a Muslim, I can't tell you precisely the points that a person who once was might have in converting, but I can assure you that what I see as the Muslim understanding of Islam here rather corresponds with my understanding of it. Should one learn have an open heart to actually hearing and learning about Christianity rather (and pardon the gross over-simplification) than just refuting it, one might find it not only not messed up, but actually reasonable.
Might it be, that we don't see it to be as messed up as you do?
Since I was never a Muslim, I can't tell you precisely the points that a person who once was might have in converting, but I can assure you that what I see as the Muslim understanding of Islam here rather corresponds with my understanding of it. Should one learn have an open heart to actually hearing and learning about Christianity rather (and pardon the gross over-simplification) than just refuting it, one might find it not only not messed up, but actually reasonable.
I'll give you just one example for "messed up":
Jesus, peace upon him, is referred to as "servant of God" in the Bible (I'll give a the verse if you want me to, inshaAllah), so I ask you: how can a "god" be servant to himself?
Jesus, peace upon him, is referred to as "servant of God" in the Bible (I'll give a the verse if you want me to, inshaAllah), so I ask you: how can a "god" be servant to himself?
First, I know of no place in the Bible where that exact phrase is used to refer to Jesus. But, perhaps you are referring to this passage:
Matthew 12
15Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. Many followed him, and he healed all their sick, 16warning them not to tell who he was. 17This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
18"Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
the one I love, in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
19He will not quarrel or cry out;
no one will hear his voice in the streets.
20A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out,
till he leads justice to victory.
21In his name the nations will put their hope."
I suspect you will consider the answer just as "messed up", but it makes perfect sense to me. (So, maybe I am messed up to, though that would be no news to my wife.)
Anyway, you must recall that Jesus is both fully God and fully man. 100% of each, possessing two natures in his one person. In his time on earth, Jesus lives a very ordinary human life. Scripture tells us in Philippians 2 that he gave up his divine perogative, the Greek behind it basically says that he "emptied himself" of his divine attributes and took on human form, humbling himself, "taking the very nature of a servant" (Phil. 2:7). This is part of what I already mentioned regarding Jesus having two natures. He didn't lose his divine nature in doing this, but he operated strictly as a human being. All the power of God that we see in Jesus' life to do miracles comes, not from his divine nature, but from the fact that he is living completely in the Father's will and is blessed by the Spirit's presence in his life. So, he prays to the Father. This is not Jesus praying to himself. Also we see that he does not have knowledge of the end times, because this is not something known to him, but is knowledge held only by the Father. I would go so far as to say that as a human being, Jesus had no special knowledge about science, history, or geography beyond that of any other 1st century Palestinian carpenter. What he did know was that he knew God. And I don't mean that he knew about God either, I mean that he knew God, had an intimate connection because he himself is part of the God-head. And that, as Muslims often misconstrue, is not an associating of partners with God. It is recognizing that, though only one being, God is a uniquely a plural-singular being.
Anyway, you must recall that Jesus is both fully God and fully man.
Prove this claim. I'll give you a proof which says the opposite:
Let's use only 1 fact to disprove your claim:
1. Jesus did not know (some/many) things
Now let's present a common-sense fact:
2. The Creator of this universe is the All-Knowing
Now let's try to put these 2 assertions together:
Jesus doesn't know everything (according to 1) AND Jesus knows everything (according to 2 or should I say - according to some Christians?).
Since the statement above is not true, as it can never be true, then we can clearly say that Jesus cannot be God.
The Bible clearly shows that Jesus didn't know some things. And 1 thing is enough to prove that he cannot be the All-Knowing God.
A primitive tool of logic is powerful enough to show that Jesus is not God.
Last edited by MadeenJibreel; 10-31-2007 at 04:58 AM.
MadeenJibreel that believing Islam to be the correct religion is a subjective opinion?
In the eyes of another religion, believing in Allah and Muhammed over their deity/spiritual leader is seen as crazy to them.
Isambard, pls read my previous post. How does that sound (to ANY living persona)?
How can people base their belief on something which falls into pieces right away?
Prove this claim. I'll give you a proof which says the opposite:
Let's use only 1 fact to disprove your claim:
1. Jesus did not know (some/many) things
Now let's present a common-sense fact:
2. The Creator of this universe is the All-Knowing
Now let's try to put these 2 assertions together:
Jesus doesn't know everything (according to 1) AND Jesus knows everything (according to 2 or should I say - according to some Christians?).
Since the statement above is not true, as it can never be true, then we can clearly say that Jesus cannot be God.
The Bible clearly shows that Jesus didn't know some things. And 1 thing is enough to prove that he cannot be the All-Knowing God.
A primitive tool of logic is powerful enough to show that Jesus is not God.
You completely missed what I said about Jesus emptying himself of those divine attributes. There is no absence of logic whatsoever. What is absent is your ability to imagine that God might actually divest himself in such a way. But that absence arises not from logic, but apriori assumptions that are embedded in your belief system.
You completely missed what I said about Jesus emptying himself of those divine attributes. There is no absence of logic whatsoever. What is absent is your ability to imagine that God might actually divest himself in such a way. But that absence arises not from logic, but apriori assumptions that are embedded in your belief system.
Not true, you gotta prove this:
[quote: Jesus emptying himself of those divine attributes.]
You are only assuming this with no proof whatsoever. How can you base your belief on (false) assumptions? Pls give me one, one single verse from the Bible where it talks about this supposed "emptying thing"...
Isambard, pls read my previous post. How does that sound (to ANY living persona)?
How can people base their belief on something which falls into pieces right away?
You guys are discussing matters of faith which by definition denies logic using religious texts that talks about magic and miracles.
Honestly now, both 'fall to pieces' if taken outside the context of the religion
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