I've just watched an interesting documentary broadcast by the BBC about Muslims (resident in the UK) converting to Christianity (did any body else happen to see it?). Some of the converts have been subject to violent attacks by other Muslims who disapprove with the conversion. I wonder what people thought about this given that many widely available Islamic texts actively encourage violent acts to those who apostatise.
Not true, you gotta prove this:
[quote: Jesus emptying himself of those divine attributes.]
You are only assuming this with no proof whatsoever. How can you base your belief on (false) assumptions? Pls give me one, one single verse from the Bible where it talks about this supposed "emptying thing"...
I did already. But here it is again:
Philippians 2
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
(New International Version)
The Greek for this passage is:
5τουτο φρονειτε εν υμιν ο και εν χριστω ιησου
6ος εν μορφη θεου υπαρχων ουχ αρπαγμον ηγησατο το ειναι ισα θεω
7αλλα εαυτον εκενωσεν μορφην δουλου λαβων εν ομοιωματι ανθρωπων γενομενος και σχηματι ευρεθεις ως ανθρωπος
8εταπεινωσεν εαυτον γενομενος υπηκοος μεχρι θανατου θανατου δε σταυρου
Pay particular attention to verse 7, "αλλα εαυτον εκενωσεν" (alla eauton ekenosen). The last word is just a construction of kenosis, which is a verb meaning "to empty". Thus, a more literal reading of that passage is:
5For, let this mind be in you that [is] also in Christ Jesus,
6who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God,
7but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,
8and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross,
(Young's Literal Translation)
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 10-31-2007 at 05:38 AM.
off topic - grace, do you know greek? i mean, can you read and understand the NT in greek?
Not like I used to when I first studied it. But, yes. Though it helps to have all of my Greek helps (interlinear, commentaries, lexicons, theological dictionaries, linguistic keys, and Greek concordances) handy. With them, I rarely just sit and read the NT in Greek devotionally anymore. It's nearly always for serious study that I get into it now days.
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 10-31-2007 at 05:50 AM.
But it's not enough Greek to order baklava at a restaurant in modern day Athens I'm afraid. The Koine Greek of the NT and modern day Greek are even less alike than Beowolf is like modern day English. About the only thing they have in common is the shape of the letters.
I've just watched an interesting documentary broadcast by the BBC about Muslims (resident in the UK) converting to Christianity (did any body else happen to see it?). Some of the converts have been subject to violent attacks by other Muslims who disapprove with the conversion. I wonder what people thought about this given that many widely available Islamic texts actively encourage violent acts to those who apostatise.
I did not see the documentary, however I would comment on your post as follows:
1. those who violently attack converts are wrong, Islamically speaking.
2. Islamic texts do not actively encourage individuals to violently attack other individuals. Where the death penalty is called for under Islamic law this is for the state to implement, and any Muslim who thinks otherwise is ignorant indeed.
I could mention that when it comes to Christians converting to Islam the ppl are mostly highly educated/professional and often studied Christianity intensely (I belong to a revert support group with hundreds of members and that is my experience of reverts).
Whereas 'Muslims' converting to other religions are usually very ignorant about Islam and often have other agendas. and yes I do have some people in mind when I say that. also I have seen stories of converts from Islam to Christianity on Christian sites and their knowledge of Islam varied between non-existent to extremely limited. I would hardly have considered them to be Muslims in the first place.
The Bible also commands to kill apostates if they worship other gods.
"And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die. (Deuteronomy 17:3-5)"
the holy Quran and the Bible are the same because the source is the same( ONE GOD).
“The servants of the Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, ‘Peace!’” 25:63
“The world and all things in it are valuable; but the most valuable thing in the world is a virtuous woman" Hadith
MadeenJibreel that believing Islam to be the correct religion is a subjective opinion?
In the eyes of another religion, believing in Allah and Muhammed over their deity/spiritual leader is seen as crazy to them.
What does a kafir troll have to do with either Islam or Christianity?
who the hell made you a referee? wait till there is thread about kafir versus Muslim before you butt-in
format_quote Originally Posted by MadeenJibreel
I think you didn't get my question akhi - I'm not talking about folks who "convert to the outside world", I'm talking about what they really believe in. So how, in Allah's Name, can a man leave the Truth of Islam for a religion (Christianity), which is so messed up nowadays, that not even the Christians know any more what's real and what's unreal or fake or fabrication or delusion or just a bad dream.
No misunderstanding there, the reply was implied that None in their right state of Eemaan and mind will leave Tawhid for shirk, that is why I said "good riddance to bad rubbish" (and greedy trash)
how, in Allah's Name, can a man leave the Truth of Islam
since when having a Muslim name qualified one to be a Muslim.
A Muslim needs to be educated in Islaam unlike Pauline creed wherein you magically get transformed in to seeing man was god
besides that anything is better than man-made versions of Islam, as the illiterate is/will be fed and educated to read and write by the church, they will eventually come back
The Bible also commands to kill apostates if they worship other gods.
"And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die. (Deuteronomy 17:3-5)"
the holy Quran and the Bible are the same because the source is the same( ONE GOD).
Ohhhhhh, such wise words, but all Christians and Muslims seems to be blind of hatred for each other. The world could be such a peaceful place if we would only have one religion.
Could ONE worldreligion bring peace to earth. Would muslims as well as christians make both some sacrifices to join one common religion based upon Bible and Quaran ? I really wonder ?
Im Always Right,Its Like,When Im Right,Im Right,And When Im Wrong,I Could've Been Right,So Im Still Right,'Cause I Could've Been Wrong!
I did not see the documentary, however I would comment on your post as follows:
1. those who violently attack converts are wrong, Islamically speaking.
2. Islamic texts do not actively encourage individuals to violently attack other individuals. Where the death penalty is called for under Islamic law this is for the state to implement, and any Muslim who thinks otherwise is ignorant indeed.
I could mention that when it comes to Christians converting to Islam the ppl are mostly highly educated/professional and often studied Christianity intensely (I belong to a revert support group with hundreds of members and that is my experience of reverts).
Whereas 'Muslims' converting to other religions are usually very ignorant about Islam and often have other agendas. and yes I do have some people in mind when I say that. also I have seen stories of converts from Islam to Christianity on Christian sites and their knowledge of Islam varied between non-existent to extremely limited. I would hardly have considered them to be Muslims in the first place.
peace
totally agree with you sis:sunny: its funny these non-Muslims see people come to Islam in groups as Allah swa said in the Quran, so when they see one lost soul convert to Christianity they make a laaa looo about it. its too funny
Ohhhhhh, such wise words, but all Christians and Muslims seems to be blind of hatred for each other. The world could be such a peaceful place if we would only have one religion.
Could ONE worldreligion bring peace to earth. Would muslims as well as christians make both some sacrifices to join one common religion based upon Bible and Quaran ? I really wonder ?
i see what your saying............you see ISLAM is peace
Ohhhhhh, such wise words, but all Christians and Muslims seems to be blind of hatred for each other. The world could be such a peaceful place if we would only have one religion.
Could ONE worldreligion bring peace to earth. Would muslims as well as christians make both some sacrifices to join one common religion based upon Bible and Quaran ? I really wonder ?
Religion is not the problem, it's the people who tend to hate.
And no is the answer to your question - Islam and Christianity are incompatible. They do have some parallels, but the main belief is incompatible (One True God vs. 3-in-1 god for instance, etc.)
And PS: If Muslims do "some sacrifices", i.e. make compromises in their belief (change their belief toward the Christian view), then this would make them unbelievers - they wouldn't be Muslims any more, but deviant unbelievers.
Religion is not the problem, it's the people who tend to hate.
And no is the answer to your question - Islam and Christianity are incompatible. They do have some parallels, but the main belief is incompatible (One True God vs. 3-in-1 god for instance, etc.)
People make a religion, so people can also change it. Where is a will, there is also a way !
Im Always Right,Its Like,When Im Right,Im Right,And When Im Wrong,I Could've Been Right,So Im Still Right,'Cause I Could've Been Wrong!
Religion is not the problem, it's the people who tend to hate.
And no is the answer to your question - Islam and Christianity are incompatible. They do have some parallels, but the main belief is incompatible (One True God vs. 3-in-1 god for instance, etc.)
And PS: If Muslims do "some sacrifices", i.e. make compromises in their belief (change their belief toward the Christian view), then this would make them unbelievers - they wouldn't be Muslims any more, but deviant unbelievers.
People make a religion, so people can also change it. Where is a will, there is also a way !
Sure they do, they changed what Allah the One and Only Creator has sent to them as a Mercy, i.e. they changed the original teachings of Jesus, upon whom be peace, Islam (yes, he was a Muslim!), and this is how you got Christianity, or should I say Paulianity and it's countless variations, combinations and permutations?
Islam, on the other hand, was never changed. There are some sects who mutated in their (originally Islamic) belief and went straight out of Islam, but they can't be called Muslims any more nor what they follow now can be called Islam, Islam as revealed by Allah (swt).
And this will not be accepted from them on the Judgment Day. And Allah know best.
Well simply, try and justify Muhammed is a prophet under a hindu philosophy, or Allah's actions under a utilitarian ethical model.
In both cases, it would be wrong because Islam is an ideology onto itself which contains its own its own idea on values, justice, ethics etc. Comparing it to another religion or ideology is like using French to correct Japanese
Gotta stick with internal validity using its own logic to determine how sound an ideology maybe.
Whereas 'Muslims' converting to other religions are usually very ignorant about Islam and often have other agendas. and yes I do have some people in mind when I say that. also I have seen stories of converts from Islam to Christianity on Christian sites and their knowledge of Islam varied between non-existent to extremely limited. I would hardly have considered them to be Muslims in the first place.
peace
With respect to some of my friends here who converted from Christianity to Islam, I too find that those who convert, even those who were once priests, have some of the more unusual understandings of what Christianity is all about. Understandings not akin to my understandings of Christianity at all. Perhaps that is the nature of a person who grows up in one faith and then still leaves it -- though they may have learned it from infancy, they had a questioning mind and were not willing to accept the teachings of it, they begin by searching for a different way to understand the faith they were raised in, and if unable to do so, then adopt a completely different faith. But in reality, the faith they are leaving is NOT the faith they were raised in but one they created in their own mind that was a parallel to the one they were raised in.
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good enough for holy book, but not good enough for greek restaurant!
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