I've just watched an interesting documentary broadcast by the BBC about Muslims (resident in the UK) converting to Christianity (did any body else happen to see it?). Some of the converts have been subject to violent attacks by other Muslims who disapprove with the conversion. I wonder what people thought about this given that many widely available Islamic texts actively encourage violent acts to those who apostatise.
I've just watched an interesting documentary broadcast by the BBC about Muslims (resident in the UK) converting to Christianity (did any body else happen to see it?). Some of the converts have been subject to violent attacks by other Muslims who disapprove with the conversion. I wonder what people thought about this given that many widely available Islamic texts actively encourage violent acts to those who apostatise.
I didn't see the documentary, but I have seen several write ups on it.
In fact I posted one. Wish I could remember where I posted it.
I wonder if this has anything to do with missionaries that seem to tie food and education along with conversion to christianity (although this happens mostly in africa and south america.)
when these apostates come out calling the prophet Muhammad a criminal, and that Islam= violence, nazism and produces backward ppl and so on what do they expect but a harsh response? these ppl attack and insult and purposely provoke, and when they get attacked they cry foul play? they are asking for it.
perhaps if apostates would stop insulting all muslims, and Islam 24-7 then maybe they will start being treated normally by muslims, until then, dont count on it.
say americans in america called america cr@p, criminal, backward, facist, etc, they would get a good beating for sure, especially in the south! and would be looked on as evil traitors etc etc
why anything different with apostates of Islam? they are essentially the same thing, but since the world is anti-Islamic as usual they twist and turn things to make it seem that muslims are the bad evil ones. muslims have feelings too you know, when you say Islam is nazism and all wrong and Muhammad is a criminal and you say this on and on day after day 24-7 you will eventually get violence, this is natural, but no muslims are always supposed to keep calm, turn the cheek bla bla bla heck were even not supposed to verbally speak out or we will be frowned upon and labelled as extremists!
for the sake of world peace i really call on you westerners to control the apostates, not the other way round that we should control the muslims, because apostates are simply asking for it.
say americans in america called america cr@p, criminal, backward, facist, etc, they would get a good beating for sure, especially in the south! and would be looked on as evil traitors etc etc
why anything different with apostates of Islam? they are essentially the same thing, but since the world is anti-Islamic as usual they twist and turn things to make it seem that muslims are the bad evil ones. muslims have feelings too you know, when you say Islam is nazism and all wrong and Muhammad is a criminal and you say this on and on day after day 24-7 you will eventually get violence, this is natural, but no muslims are always supposed to keep calm, turn the cheek bla bla bla heck were even not supposed to verbally speak out or we will be frowned upon and labelled as extremists!
for the sake of world peace i really call on you westerners to control the apostates, not the other way round that we should control the muslims, because apostates are simply asking for it.
Except you do have Americans critisizing the status quo...daily. There are a number of groups who do this and guess what, ppl who touch them go to jail for violating the first amedment. Why isnt there such a thing in islam?
That said, not all apostates attack Islam, yet quite a few passive ones have received death threats or have been shuned. Care to comment?
Actually traitors in the U.S get the death sentence ( not mere teasing and tormenting).. check out ethyl and julius Rosenberg...
this topic of apostasy has been discussed here ad nauseam.. if anyone is unclear of ruling use the search feature--easy way to get a scholarly view along with some random opinions, without rousing a heated topic in the outset of Ramadan!
regards
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Except you do have Americans critisizing the status quo...daily. There are a number of groups who do this and guess what, ppl who touch them go to jail for violating the first amedment. Why isnt there such a thing in islam?
That said, not all apostates attack Islam, yet quite a few passive ones have received death threats or have been shuned. Care to comment?
That said, not all apostates attack Islam, yet quite a few passive ones have received death threats or have been shuned.
I can see that shunning probably does happen. That will occur to some extent when a person leaves any religion. If you read the threads here you will see that fairly common threads to start are ones started by recent reverts and how they were disowned by friends and relatives.
Now for passive apostates, I tend to believe any death threads are rare. I do not know of any quiet apostate receiving them. I can not say it does not happen. but, I do not know of any cases where it did happen.
Actually traitors in the U.S get the death sentence ( not mere teasing and tormenting).. check out ethyl and julius Rosenberg...
this topic of apostasy has been discussed here ad nauseam.. if anyone is unclear of ruling use the search feature--easy way to get a scholarly view along with some random opinions, without rousing a heated topic in the outset of Ramadan!
regards
Thank You for reminding me. This discussion can continue after Ramadan.
Well, here it is after Ramadan, and I don't want to start a bunch of name calling, but I do think that there is an error in logic made in the analysis and suggestion which follows:
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
say americans in america called america cr@p, criminal, backward, facist, etc, they would get a good beating for sure, especially in the south! and would be looked on as evil traitors etc etc
why anything different with apostates of Islam? they are essentially the same thing, but since the world is anti-Islamic as usual they twist and turn things to make it seem that muslims are the bad evil ones. muslims have feelings too you know, when you say Islam is nazism and all wrong and Muhammad is a criminal and you say this on and on day after day 24-7 you will eventually get violence, this is natural, but no muslims are always supposed to keep calm, turn the cheek bla bla bla heck were even not supposed to verbally speak out or we will be frowned upon and labelled as extremists!
for the sake of world peace i really call on you westerners to control the apostates, not the other way round that we should control the muslims, because apostates are simply asking for it.
Yes, most certainly you will find elements within the USA who would be upset and even become violent toward a person that badmouthed the USA. However, if all they did was speak their mind and inflicted no violence on other people, though they may have to put up with hooligans that might attack them, the law would actually be on their side. And even people who disagreed with them would defend their right to speak their mind and have their own opinion. There would be no legal organized effort to stop them. Indeed it would be just the opposite, the ACLU would probably come to their defense.
People like the Rosenbergs who were found guilty of actually betraying their country and threatening its security by their volitional actions would on the other hand be dealt with by the law. The Rosenbergs were executed, as would be the case in many other countries around the world, but not every traitor is executed.
People who wished to simply give up their citizenship and become citizens of another country have complete freedom to do so without interference of any kind. And while legally living/visiting in the USA would still be entitled to all of the same legal protections they had when citizens of it.
I think the better parrallel for how apostate Muslim should be treated is this last scenario. On what grounds would beating them up or trying them as traitors to Islam be justified? I thought that it was a principle of Islam that there is no compulsion in Islam. Am I wrong regarding that principle?
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 10-23-2007 at 06:17 PM.
Some how I don’t see a correlation with Ethyl and Julius Rosenberg and apostasy.
I just can’t equate selling atomic weapons secrets to an enemy that wants to destroy you and saying Mohammad wasn’t a prophet.
Some how I don’t see a correlation with Ethyl and Julius Rosenberg and apostasy.
I just can’t equate selling atomic weapons secrets to an enemy that wants to destroy you and saying Mohammad wasn’t a prophet.
IMHO it is like equating a fish and a bicycle.
Apostacy punishable by death ONLY under an Islamic state (when meeting with certain conditions), since it is treason to the state. Islam isn't just a religion. I understand you see it reduced to a religion no different than the others, but it is also state law. And Just like treason in the united states is punishable by death as it is state law, treason against Islam is punishable by death when it is state law.
This is the very distilled explanation. and I'll reference to threads written by Br. Ansar on the matter for a more comprehensive look!
cheers!
Last edited by جوري; 10-31-2007 at 03:11 AM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Some how I don’t see a correlation with Ethyl and Julius Rosenberg and apostasy.
I just can’t equate selling atomic weapons secrets to an enemy that wants to destroy you and saying Mohammad wasn’t a prophet.
IMHO it is like equating a fish and a bicycle.
Here apostosy would not be treason to the country. However, in a true Islamic country, it could easily be treason. there is more involved than simply not believing Muhammad(BBUH) is a Prophet(PBUH).
While Sharia law does permit capital punishment, it is only under specific conditions that it can be applied. The normal quiet apostate who is not trying to undermine the country is not in danger of the death penalty, but chances are his family and friends are not going to be very nice to him.
Here apostosy would not be treason to the country. However, in a true Islamic country, it could easily be treason. there is more involved than simply not believing Muhammad(BBUH) is a Prophet(PBUH).
While Sharia law does permit capital punishment, it is only under specific conditions that it can be applied. The normal quiet apostate who is not trying to undermine the country is not in danger of the death penalty, but chances are his family and friends are not going to be very nice to him.
Forgive me this offtopic, but what about situations of muslim apostates in non muslim countries, e.g Europe or USA? Do muslims have right to chase them and assasinate or they should be left alone?
This country is dying because of a lack of men, not a lack of programs.
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