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    Christianity in Five Minutes

    Khalid Yasin embraced Islam in 1965 and is currently the Director of the Islamic Teaching Institute in the USA. He specializes in a variety of topics and areas including: Youth, Islamic History, Culture, community development and Dawah work. He has lectured in a variety of places and locations both nationally and internationally and has been the means by which a large number of non-Muslims have reverted to Islam.

    Extracts from the lecture:

    Mathew, Luke, mark and john who were they?

    Mathew who?

    Luke who?

    John Who?

    And mark who?

    What were their last names?


    When did they write?

    Did they know Jesus Christ (PBUH)?

    Did they walk with Jesus Christ (PBUH)?

    Did they eat with Jesus Christ (PBUH)?

    Did they talk to Jesus Christ (PBUH)?

    Did they even meet Jesus Christ (PBUH) PBUH)??!

    The answer is NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!


    Conclusively they wrote those books 40 years after Jesus Christ (PBUH) PBUH) they never met him

    The last one they wrote was 80 years after Jesus Christ (PBUH) they never met him

    The other thing is all of them seem to have written the gospel (pause) according to
    According to according to according to!!!


    Now when you write a letter do you sign it according to? (Sigh!)

    According to is the third party!

    When Jacky, Johnny or bobby told me something and I wrote it I would say according to Joe, Johnny Tommy or bobby.


    According to.

    But those four people would not write a letter and in front of it say Jacky according to
    Jacky.

    They not even right their last names.

    Because if Jacky right me a check and only write Jacky I couldn't cash it. And if I was a
    Policeman and I stop Johnny on the road and he has a license that only say Jacky he is going to jail. (Laugh! from the audience)

    Where in the world is a document with only one name of four different writers that didn't
    Meet the one whom they writing about where is that accepted in the whole world?

    No where except in the Bible.

    And the church fathers, historians and the Christian writers. They all agree that perhaps
    Those four writers themselves were only pen names.

    Because a writer would not write his own only first name ACCORDING TO.

    There is a great amount of suspicion that the man called Paul, Saul of Tarsus because he
    Wrote all books from acts all the way to the end of the New Testament, How many books is that?

    How many?? 15, 16, 17 or 19!!!

    All those books of Acts Colossian Corinthians Romans Ephesians Galatians all of those books are written by whom?

    PAUL Saul of Tarsus.

    Another man who never talked who never walked, never eat, never met, never prayed
    Who never knew Jesus Christ (PBUH) (PBUH) isn't that something???!!

    Now here we find a four writers and another one between them that wrote all the new
    Testament books:

    They never talked never walked never eat never met and never prayed the man called
    Jesus Christ (PBUH)!

    Yet in their words the first mentioning of the Trinity came from where??!

    From Jesus Christ (PBUH) or from them?

    The first mentioning of Jesus Christ (PBUH) being divine a man god came from whom?!

    From them.

    The first mentioning that Jesus Christ (PBUH) being son of god came from whom?

    From them.

    Jesus Christ (PBUH) never said in his words any such words, but that was the man who never met him to claim to have written who didn't know their last names.

    And Paul by the way- before he had that vision on the road to Damascus that only he saw and only he heard, Guess what his occupation was??? (Pause)

    Do you know?!!

    He was a bounty hunter!!!

    A hunter! Of Christians!! Hunting them down like animals!! And binding them and bringing them to where?!!

    To Rome so that they could be Executed.


    Now if Hitler after killing thousands of Jews says to on the road to Berlin he had a vision
    That he was named an apostle to the Jews and he wrote 20 books that all the Jews suppose to follow Do you think they would be following that book?

    I don't understand how people just don't read history.

    This is not what Khalid said so don't get angry with me. This is your own scriptures your Own bibles scholars your own church fathers all of them agree! That Paul never met Jesus Christ (PBUH).
    That John, Luke, Mark and Mathew never met Jesus Christ (PBUH).

    By the way they were not disciples.

    Nor were they talkers and walkers of the disciples, they were just writers and historians.


    From the lecture of Former African-American Christian: Sheikh Khalid Yasin

    Watch this lecture in youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_gt-3plqf4

    Official website of Sheikh Khalid Yasin: http://www.challengeyoursoul.com/
    Christianity in Five Minutes

    “The servants of the Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, ‘Peace!’” 25:63

    “The world and all things in it are valuable; but the most valuable thing in the world is a virtuous woman" Hadith

    www.-----------------------

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    Re: Christianity in Five Minutes

    Lot of disinformation in there...I would say this former Christian wasn't very knowledgable about the faith he is now attacking.
    Christianity in Five Minutes

    "Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."

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    Re: Christianity in Five Minutes

    Does it really matter?

    Surely is what important is what Matthew, Mark, Luke, John - whoever they might actually have been - actually said? That message has had the power to move people across nearly two thousand years, and even as a non-Christian I appreciate it as a good message. If everybody, be they Christian, muslim, Hindu or whatever, followed the teachings of Jesus as set out by those people (as in actually followed them), the world would be a far better, happier and more peaceful place than it is now. From a monotheist perspective, I assume, people would all be doing what God wanted them to do.. the rest (including the trinity/shirk obsession) is all trivial details.

    As to Paul's prevous occupation, the comments show Keltoi is probably right. It isn't some dark secret.. it is the whole point.
    Last edited by Trumble; 12-10-2007 at 10:45 PM.

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    Re: Christianity in Five Minutes

    how much of christianity is based on the actual teachings of jesus?
    Christianity in Five Minutes

    each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
    question authority

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    Re: Christianity in Five Minutes

    Quote Originally Posted by Trumble View Post
    Does it really matter?

    Surely is what important is what Matthew, Mark, Luke, John - whoever they might actually have been - actually said? That message has had the power to move people across nearly two thousand years, and even as a non-Christian I appreciate it as a good message. If everybody, be they Christian, muslim, Hindu or whatever, followed the teachings of Jesus as set out by those people (as in actually followed them), the world would be a far better, happier and more peaceful place than it is now. From a monotheist perspective, I assume, people would all be doing what God wanted them to do.. the rest (including the trinity/shirk obsession) is all trivial details.

    As to Paul's prevous occupation, the comments show Keltoi is probably right. It isn't some dark secret.. it is the whole point.
    You mean the Golden Rule? That has its problems as well....

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    Re: Christianity in Five Minutes

    Quote Originally Posted by khairullah View Post
    Christianity in Five Minutes

    Khalid Yasin embraced Islam in 1965 and is currently the Director of the Islamic Teaching Institute in the USA. He specializes in a variety of topics and areas including: Youth, Islamic History, Culture, community development and Dawah work. He has lectured in a variety of places and locations both nationally and internationally and has been the means by which a large number of non-Muslims have reverted to Islam.

    Extracts from the lecture:

    Mathew, Luke, mark and john who were they?

    Mathew who?

    Luke who?

    John Who?

    And mark who?

    What were their last names?
    Very few people in the first century AD had last names. Note that even Jesus is known as Jesus "of Nazareth", not by a last name. But some people did have surnames, and among those was a fellow named Mark. You see, Mark is his last name. His full name was John Mark.




    When did they write?

    Did they know Jesus Christ (PBUH)?

    Did they walk with Jesus Christ (PBUH)?

    Did they eat with Jesus Christ (PBUH)?

    Did they talk to Jesus Christ (PBUH)?

    Did they even meet Jesus Christ (PBUH) PBUH)??!

    The answer is NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!
    He errs in that assessment. I believe that John did indeed know, walk with, eat with, and talk with Jesus. I also believe that this is true with regard to Matthew, though not with the same level of confidence that I have for John. I don't believe it is likely that Luke or Mark knew Jesus, however I do not suppose that it was beyond the realm of possibility.



    Conclusively they wrote those books 40 years after Jesus Christ (PBUH) PBUH) they never met him

    The last one they wrote was 80 years after Jesus Christ (PBUH) they never met him
    "Conclusively"?? One who would make such a statement regarding these books simply doesn't know the meaning of the word "conclusively". Given that we have the testimony of John's own disciples (plural) that John wrote the gospel that bears his name, if anything is going to be found to be conclusive it is that John DID write the book that bears his name and that he did know Jesus, not the other way around.

    As far as the estimated dating of the other gospels, the estimated time of Jesus death is 29 AD, with Mark, Luke and Matthew being written between 64 and 75 AD (roughly 35-46 years after Jesus' crucifixion) and certainly such close enough in time that they could have known him, for if they were the same age as him (and they could have been younger) they would only be around 70 years of age. Before you object to that being well beyond average lifespan, such averages were shortened because of infant mortality. It was not unusual for folks who survived into adulthood to live well into advance years, including 70 and even older.


    The other thing is all of them seem to have written the gospel (pause) according to
    According to according to according to!!!


    Now when you write a letter do you sign it according to? (Sigh!)

    According to is the third party!
    This is the most ludicrous of the comments thus far. The phrase, "The Gospel according to _______________" is just a title added to the completed document by the church. It was a way of identifying one gospel account from another. And precisely because when handled by the church they did become third party documents they thus needed to say, this is the gospel according to (whoever was the accepted author of that particular gospel they were referencing).




    When Jacky, Johnny or bobby told me something and I wrote it I would say according to Joe, Johnny Tommy or bobby.


    According to.

    But those four people would not write a letter and in front of it say Jacky according to
    Jacky.

    They not even right their last names.

    Because if Jacky right me a check and only write Jacky I couldn't cash it. And if I was a
    Policeman and I stop Johnny on the road and he has a license that only say Jacky he is going to jail. (Laugh! from the audience)

    Where in the world is a document with only one name of four different writers that didn't
    Meet the one whom they writing about where is that accepted in the whole world?

    No where except in the Bible.
    This is obvious nonsense with no other comments than what I have noted above being necessary.




    And the church fathers, historians and the Christian writers. They all agree that perhaps
    Those four writers themselves were only pen names.
    This is not even close to true. Please, if you can support this, provide a quote from the church fathers where they agreed these are pen names.

    While you are looking, please read this which is the actual statement of Papia, an early church father:
    And the Presbyter used to say this, "Mark became Peter's interpreter and wrote accurately all that he remembered, not, indeed, in order, of the things said or done by the Lord. He had not heard the Lord, nor had he followed him, but later on, as I said, followed Peter, who used to give teaching as a necessity demanded but not making, as it were, an arrangement of the Lord's oracles, so that Mark did nothing wrong in thus writing down single points as he remembered them."
    The "Presbyter" that Papias refers to is John the Presbyter.

    In addition to Papias, another church father, Irenaeus, also identifies Mark as the disciple and interpreter of Peter. (See Irenaeus' Against Heresies, III. i. 2.)



    Because a writer would not write his own only first name ACCORDING TO.

    There is a great amount of suspicion that the man called Paul, Saul of Tarsus because he
    Wrote all books from acts all the way to the end of the New Testament, How many books is that?

    How many?? 15, 16, 17 or 19!!!

    All those books of Acts Colossian Corinthians Romans Ephesians Galatians all of those books are written by whom?

    PAUL Saul of Tarsus.
    The comments get more and more outrages.

    First, simply reading Acts it is clear that it is not written by Paul. It is written by the same person who addressed the 2nd gospel to Theophilus and this subsequent history of the acts of the apostles to the same Theophilus as his second book. This person is NOT Paul because it speaks of Paul in the third person throughout, and many of the specific incidents of Paul's life that are mentioned in his letters are completely left out of Acts. And the author of Acts differs considerably from Paul in the recollection of the council of Jerusalem. The author of Acts fails to have knowledge of much of what Paul has written in his letters to the churches his visited.

    Also, we see that much of the book of Acts is written in the third person. But that suddenly changes to first person in Acts 20 as Paul prepares to leave Greece after several months there. I suggest that this is were Luke joins Paul in his journeys. Whoever it is, it certainly isn't Paul who is doing the writing.


    Another man who never talked who never walked, never eat, never met, never prayed
    Who never knew Jesus Christ (PBUH) (PBUH) isn't that something???!!
    It isn't true the Paul never met Jesus. He had an encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus.

    Now here we find a four writers and another one between them that wrote all the new
    Testament books:

    They never talked never walked never eat never met and never prayed the man called
    Jesus Christ (PBUH)!
    Already shown to be baseless, unfounded, and actually false.


    Yet in their words the first mentioning of the Trinity came from where??!
    The use of the term "Trinity" doesn't come from any of these sources. It is used by Tertullian before the Council of Nicea but long after all books that became part of the New Testament. And Tertullian did it to emphasized that when Christians, who from the beginning had been speaking of Jesus as himself divine, spoke of either Jesus and then later also expressed their understanding of the Holy Spirit as both being themselves God equally with the very Jewish concept (at least in the first century) of God as father, that Christians were NOT referring to three different gods or any tri-theistic concept but were referring to one God in completely unity with himself. But make no mistake, even before the first book of the New Testament was written, in records that predate Paul, in works such as the Didache and others there are baptismal forumlas that were used by the church in which people are initiated into a brand new covenant with God by being baptized "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". Such has been the understanding of the Church since even before Paul stopped his persecutions of it and himself became a Christian.


    The first mentioning of Jesus Christ (PBUH) being divine a man god came from whom?!

    From them.
    No. There is no mentioning of Jesus being a divine man god. If this is what you think that is expressed in the Bible or any of Christian literature, then you must be reading the works of gnostics and do not understands the teachings of historic orthodox Christianity at all. For that concept is specifically what the forumlation of the concepts of the Trinity into creedal statements was designed speak against. You will find the whole concept of a man-god being rejected by every book of the Bible in which it is introduced. My guess is that you simply are not understanding the difference between this man-god concept and the truly Biblical concept that Jesus has two natures being both 100% God and 100% man at the same time comingled without any loss of either. And the first mention of it is on the lips of the disciple Thomas, who on meeting Jesus following his resurrection addressed him as "my Lord and my God", as recorded by the Apostle John who was present at the time (John 20:28).


    The first mentioning that Jesus Christ (PBUH) being son of god came from whom?

    From them.

    Jesus Christ (PBUH) never said in his words any such words, but that was the man who never met him to claim to have written who didn't know their last names.
    You keep mentioning this bit about the last names of the gospel writers, which only makes you sound like an idiot. I suggest you just drop that foolishness and deal with things more constructive to your argument.

    As to the first referrring to Jesus by the title "Son of God", that honor appears to go to John the Baptist who shares this information with the Baptist's own disciples (John 1:35), though certainly a case could be made that it is God the Father who makes this known first as he proclaims at Jesus' baptism "This is my Son." (Matthew 3:17). And of course, even before that, the angel had years earlier announced to Mary that her son "will be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). As for being the first to write it in something that would later become scripture it appears to be a toss up between Paul in his letter to the Galatians or Mark in declaring that his gospel is about "Jesus Christ, the Son of God" (Mark 1:1) as both were written about the same time. Though even before that, Christians throughout the Roman world had devised a code by which they would greet one another with the sign of the fish, which in Greek is spell iota, chi, theta, upsilon, sigma an acronym for the Christian slogan "Jesus Christ God's Son Savior". So there you have several choices as to who was the first to mention the Jesus being son of God.




    And Paul by the way- before he had that vision on the road to Damascus that only he saw and only he heard, Guess what his occupation was??? (Pause)

    Do you know?!!

    He was a bounty hunter!!!

    A hunter! Of Christians!! Hunting them down like animals!! And binding them and bringing them to where?!!

    To Rome so that they could be Executed.
    Again, wrong. Here is Paul describing himself: "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. Under Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today." (Acts 22:3) He was a pharisee. He was no bounty hunter.

    But you are right that he was indeed a persecutor of Christians. Do you know why? Because they were lifting up and talking about this man Jesus as if Jesus were God. Paul, being a good Jew, believed that any such talk was blasphemy. He was not interested in having these Christians taken back to Rome, where at the beginning of the first century there was a great deal of tolerance for the many and various Jewish beliefs and Jewish Christians would not have been in any more danger than any other Jew. No, he wanted them brought before the high priest in Jerusalem, just as had been done with Stephen (see Acts 7). So, you see it is ridiculous to speak of Paul being the originator of the very idea that he was trying to arrest Christians for having already proclaimed themselves.


    Now if Hitler after killing thousands of Jews says to on the road to Berlin he had a vision
    That he was named an apostle to the Jews and he wrote 20 books that all the Jews suppose to follow Do you think they would be following that book?

    I don't understand how people just don't read history.
    First, Paul did not write anything immediately. Not until well after he was accepted as a leader in the Christian Church.

    Second, if you had bothered to actually read what you so want to debunk, you would have avoided making some of the mistakes you have made. Take a look at the initial action to Paul when he arrives in Damascus. Even though God himself told Ananias to go to Paul, how does Ananias respond: "Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name" (Acts 9:13-14). And when Paul began to preach, "All those who heard him were astonished and asked, 'Isn't he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name?' " (Acts 9:21)

    So, Paul had to first prove himself. The key is that he did.




    This is not what Khalid said so don't get angry with me. This is your own scriptures your Own bibles scholars your own church fathers all of them agree! That Paul never met Jesus Christ (PBUH).
    That John, Luke, Mark and Mathew never met Jesus Christ (PBUH).

    By the way they were not disciples.

    Nor were they talkers and walkers of the disciples, they were just writers and historians.


    From the lecture of Former African-American Christian: Sheikh Khalid Yasin

    Watch this lecture in youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_gt-3plqf4

    Official website of Sheikh Khalid Yasin: http://www.challengeyoursoul.com/
    khairullah,

    I suggest you find someone more learned than Sheikh Khalid Yasin to teach you about Christianity. He doesn't know what he is talking about, and it is evident on so many levels it is ridiculous. If you wish to be Muslim and reject Christianity, I know that this is what you will do. But, if you are going to attack or debate it, do yourself a favor, and learn about it from those who are not themselves fools so that they don't make you look like one as well. The Ahmadi are better representatives of Islam than this man is of Christianity.
    Last edited by Grace Seeker; 12-10-2007 at 11:26 PM.

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    Re: Christianity in Five Minutes

    Quote Originally Posted by snakelegs View Post
    how much of christianity is based on the actual teachings of jesus?
    ...but you miss the point, the "Gospel" (according to Christianity) is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. How could Jesus teach the disciples something that hadn't happened? The central point is not Jesus' message, but rather who he is and what he did.

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    Re: Christianity in Five Minutes

    i haven't read the NT.
    Christianity in Five Minutes

    each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
    question authority

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    Re: Christianity in Five Minutes

    Quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc View Post
    ...but you miss the point, the "Gospel" (according to Christianity) is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. How could Jesus teach the disciples something that hadn't happened? The central point is not Jesus' message, but rather who he is and what he did.

    Woot!! Woot!!!


    Someone actually gets it! I'm impressed.

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    Re: Christianity in Five Minutes

    Quote Originally Posted by snakelegs View Post
    i haven't read the NT.
    Eh, you arnt missing much.:X

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    Re: Christianity in Five Minutes

    Originally posted by Grace Seeker.
    I suggest you find someone more learned than Sheikh Khalid Yasin to teach you about Christianity. He doesn't know what he is talking about, and it is evident on so many levels it is ridiculous. If you wish to be Muslim and reject Christianity, I know that this is what you will do. But, if you are going to attack or debate it, do yourself a favor, and learn about it from those who are not themselves fools so that they don't make you look like one as well. The Ahmadi are better representatives of Islam than this man is of Christianity.


    Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

    Greetings Gene,

    that's NOT a very "Christian" response Gene. in fact it's a little confusing. Brother Khalid is NOT claiming to be a "Christian", NOR is he claiming to be a representative of "Christianity". in fact the original poster wrote:
    Khalid Yasin embraced Islam in 1965 and is currently the Director of the Islamic Teaching Institute in the USA
    WHY would you then compare him to a group of people that "claim" to Muslims but aren't? do we compare you with Mormons? or Jehovahs Witnesses?

    secondly, I'M ASTONISHED and ALARMED that you would tell a relatively new member they look like a fool!

    i expected you to set a better example...

    Christianity in Five Minutes

    Had the non-believer known of all the Mercy which is in the Hands of Allah, he would not lose hope of entering Paradise, and had the believer known of all the punishment which is present with Allah, he would not consider himself safe from the Hell-Fire
    http://www.muftimenk.co.za/Downloads.html

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    Re: Christianity in Five Minutes

    Quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor View Post


    Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

    Greetings Gene,

    that's NOT a very "Christian" response Gene. in fact it's a little confusing. Brother Khalid is NOT claiming to be a "Christian", NOR is he claiming to be a representative of "Christianity". in fact the original poster wrote:


    WHY would you then compare him to a group of people that "claim" to Muslims but aren't? do we compare you with Mormons? or Jehovahs Witnesses?

    secondly, I'M ASTONISHED and ALARMED that you would tell a relatively new member they look like a fool!

    i expected you to set a better example...

    The author of that article claimed to be a former Christian, which I expect is meant to lend credence to his assertions about Christianity. However, the things mentioned in the article are either outright falsehoods or twisted understanding of Christian doctrine.

    Grace Seeker was pointing that out. It was a good bit of advice too. If you wish to debate about Christianity, at least do your own research or choose an article that is actually written by someone who knows what they are talking about.
    Christianity in Five Minutes

    "Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."

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    Re: Christianity in Five Minutes

    Quote Originally Posted by Isambard View Post
    Eh, you arnt missing much.:X


    LOL

  17. #14
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    Re: Christianity in Five Minutes

    Quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor View Post


    Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

    Greetings Gene,

    that's NOT a very "Christian" response Gene. in fact it's a little confusing. Brother Khalid is NOT claiming to be a "Christian", NOR is he claiming to be a representative of "Christianity". in fact the original poster wrote:


    WHY would you then compare him to a group of people that "claim" to Muslims but aren't? do we compare you with Mormons? or Jehovahs Witnesses?

    secondly, I'M ASTONISHED and ALARMED that you would tell a relatively new member they look like a fool!

    i expected you to set a better example...


    Yusuf, I try to be tolerate of differences. I understand that not all people will agree with me. But, please, you have to admit that some of the things that were put forth as arguments: the lack of last names, "the gospel according to ___________" arguments, these things don't just show lack of knowledge about Christianity, but lack of general knowledge and common sense. If persons are going to become overly critical they should develop critical skills of observation and analysis. If they are going to quote others without being discriminating in selecting those remarks, then they need to be willing to own those remarks for themselves as well. khairullah did none of those things. That does not show very much discernment on his part. Now, he can continue to behave in such a manner, but if he does it will, in fact, make him look foolish, for certainly Khalid Yasin's comments (at least as they were presented here) were extremely foolish and showed a complete lack of insight or understanding. I was in all seriousness cautioning our young friend from relying on such poor scholarship again, as it does reflect on him as well for being gullible enough to accept it without seeing it for the foolishness that it is. You will note that I did not and am not actually calling khairullah a fool. I am warning him Kahlid Yasin sounds like a fool and that if Khairullah wants to avoid looking like one with him, then he will want to avoid indiscriminately copying him or his views. In other words, I'm trying to help Khairullah from making the same mistakes that Yasin has committed. I do not presently consider Khairullah anything other than uninformed. However, should he repeat the same mistakes a second time, copying the words of one who himself evidently knows nothing and presenting it as sound argument, well, that would be a different story wouldn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor View Post
    Brother Khalid is NOT claiming to be a "Christian", NOR is he claiming to be a representative of "Christianity". in fact the original poster wrote:
    Quote Originally Posted by khairullah View Post
    Khalid Yasin embraced Islam in 1965 and is currently the Director of the Islamic Teaching Institute in the USA.
    WHY would you then compare him to a group of people that "claim" to Muslims but aren't? do we compare you with Mormons? or Jehovahs Witnesses?
    Well, first, please note the conclusion of what the original poster wrote with respect to Khalid Yasin:
    Quote Originally Posted by khairullah View Post
    From the lecture of Former African-American Christian: Sheikh Khalid Yasin
    Second, I don't recall that you have ever compared me to a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness, but yes, certainly many Muslims on this board have confused Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses with orthodox Christianity. Some even go so far as to assert that JW teachings are more in line with what they (mistakenly in my opinion) believe to have been the teachings of Jesus than those of the Catholic Church the Orthodox Church or any mainline protestant church.

    Now, why did I make the comaprison to a group of people that "claim" to Muslims but aren't? That's simple. The Ahmadi that I meet claim that they are true Muslims and that they can therefore represent Islam better than other Muslims can. I recognize that this is not true, not if I want to know the Islam of those who are part of the Ummah. Listening to an Ahmadi tells me little to nothing about true Islam, despite what they would claim. Similarly Sheikh Khalid Yasin is presented to us as a former Christian, but his views evidenced in this post show little to no true understanding of Christianity. As such, Khalid Yasin can hardly be said to represent Christianity, not anymore than an Ahmadi represents true Islam.



    secondly, I'M ASTONISHED and ALARMED that you would tell a relatively new member they look like a fool!

    i expected you to set a better example...

    Well, if you were alarmed it is good that your raised the issue so that I might alay your fears. Hopefully, you are not still so alarmed.
    Last edited by Grace Seeker; 12-11-2007 at 11:16 PM.

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    Re: Christianity in Five Minutes

    hola

    no offence but i am always confused why i should believe a muslim (or any non christian for that matter) about christianity. this isn't something they approach honesty, it's always from the perspective of tearing christianity down to build up their own religion. and they are looking at issues they have no party to without any expertise. it is like that ridiculous thread in which lay muslims are attempting to revisit hypostatic union... an issue that is completely insular to Church bishops 1800 years ago. it is like the stranger who bumps into a conversation between doctors and begins telling them what they think about all the work issues the doctors were discussing...

    and there is the issue of trusting an apostate... these are the same people who several days ago were telling you they know the absolute truth and it is x, but now they are absolutely convinced that they know the absolute truth and it is y.

    ...riiiight...

    i know about christianity... i'm not here to ask questions about christianity. most of the time these questions aren't important, it's just insisted upon us that they are important. like a merchant who shoves their produce in your face at a market and demands that you need what they are selling. and if they are important there are already reasonable answers that once again it is demanded to us are not reasonable answers.

    it's different if this were the result of somebody saying 'be a christian!' and then you ask a challenging question that's really on your mind... but with such a thread one could hardly say that is the case.

    que Dios te bendiga
    Last edited by Jayda; 12-11-2007 at 06:27 PM.
    Christianity in Five Minutes


  20. #16
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    Re: Christianity in Five Minutes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayda View Post
    no offence but i am always confused why i should believe a muslim (or any non christian for that matter) about christianity. this isn't something they approach honesty, it's always from the perspective of tearing christianity down to build up their own religion. and they are looking at issues they have no party to without any expertise.
    I disagree with you. We Muslims believe what the Quran says about Christianity to be true. We don't tear down Christianity in order to build up Islam. We have our beliefs about what the Truth is just as you do and we have a responsibility to dispel falsehood with the Truth of One God with no sons, no daughters, no mother, no father and no equal.

    and there is the issue of trusting an apostate... these are the same people who several days ago were telling you they know the absolute truth and it is x, but now they are absolutely convinced that they know the absolute truth and it is y.

    ...riiiight...
    You can have your negative opinion of me as an apostate from Christianity, but I don't really care. I do have an understanding of both Christianity and Islam - and I chose Islam 26 years ago as the proper religion of the One God.

    i know about christianity... i'm not here to ask questions about christianity. most of the time these questions aren't important, it's just insisted upon us that they are important. like a merchant who shoves their produce in your face at a market and demands that you need what they are selling. and if they are important there are already reasonable answers that once again it is demanded to us are not reasonable answers.
    Christian members should acknowledge that the central tenet of their religion flies directly into the face of Islam and that they will continually be at odds with Muslims until they believe in the One God and that Jesus was as he claimed to be, a prophet and servant of Him.

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    Re: Christianity in Five Minutes

    I will agree that Christianity and Islam are at odds, but I will disagree that Christians need to change their beliefs in order to acknowledge the One God. As for what Christ is, we will never agree on that.
    Christianity in Five Minutes

    "Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."

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    Re: Christianity in Five Minutes

    Quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc View Post
    I disagree with you. We Muslims believe what the Quran says about Christianity to be true. We don't tear down Christianity in order to build up Islam. We have our beliefs about what the Truth is just as you do and we have a responsibility to dispel falsehood with the Truth of One God with no sons, no daughters, no mother, no father and no equal.

    You can have your negative opinion of me as an apostate from Christianity, but I don't really care. I do have an understanding of both Christianity and Islam - and I chose Islam 26 years ago as the proper religion of the One God.

    Christian members should acknowledge that the central tenet of their religion flies directly into the face of Islam and that they will continually be at odds with Muslims until they believe in the One God and that Jesus was as he claimed to be, a prophet and servant of Him.
    hola MustafaMc,

    i don't want you (or anyone) to misunderstand my tone... i don't want to insult you... although much of this may do that. i'm trying to be brutally honest about this issue of dialoguing with muslims, i don't think it will help, i don't think anything will change, but it's been on my mind. i understand what you are saying... it's not a surprise at all, but it does present a problem for me and for a lot of others in how (or even if) we should talk to muslims.

    there was recently a thread asking why Christians come here, who spend so much time talking about Christianity and very little time asking about islam (our usual stated purpose). and i think i mentioned that while there are a lot of people who come to proselytize, many come to ask a few questions about islam but find that christianity is so misportrayed and attacked we feel compelled to at least answer a few things... i recall my attempt to answer '100 questions' that a user gave me, only to find out after painstakingly researching that the user was not reading my answers, did not actually come up with the questions... but rather posted them from somewhere else and didn't really care what i had to say.

    the important factor here is that christianity wouldn't have been discussed at all (thus not requiring such a question from that poster at least as it affects non proselytizers) had there not been any literature from islamic sources about christianity that we don't take seriously to begin with. the minute i read 'ahmed deedat' or 'zakir naik' i stop reading, they won't be discussing islam... they'll be discussing christianity, wrongly. so it's a conversation tombstone for no reason...

    but it would seem from what you say that this is the natural and fated conclusion of any conversation i attempt to have with a muslim about islam... it will turn into a God commanded lecture about christianity, with little regard for our input since, afterall, you believe that the quran already provided you with answers and with little regard for whether we actually wanted to listen to (as i hestitate to use the word discuss) any of this.

    with that in mind... what reason does a christian have to take up a muslims' secular invitation to find out more about islam? that is, afterall, my and others' reason for being here... unfortunately we don't get to discuss islam until i basically agree with you (not you personally, but in the general sense) on everything in christianity that you have decided we will talk about.

    so, put yourself in my position. you are just a person interested in asking a few questions about islam, not christianity and furthermore you consider muslims' opinions and points about christianity to be invalid, but the muslims you speak to are insistant that they must speak to you about christianity and their opinions are valid. two parties, talking about two different things, with little or no room for movement. this is an impasse.

    how do we talk?

    que Dios te bendiga
    Last edited by Jayda; 12-11-2007 at 09:07 PM.
    Christianity in Five Minutes


  23. #19
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    Re: Christianity in Five Minutes

    Quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc View Post
    I disagree with you. We Muslims believe what the Quran says about Christianity to be true. We don't tear down Christianity in order to build up Islam. We have our beliefs about what the Truth is just as you do and we have a responsibility to dispel falsehood with the Truth of One God with no sons, no daughters, no mother, no father and no equal.
    Would that this were true of everyone, Mustafa. But we both can point to many, both Christians and Muslims, who come here not to learn, not even to correct misconceptions, but primarily to proselytize the other. The post that began this thread was intended to, in the best understanding of it, correct Christianity. But it did nothing to even take Christianity seriously. The material presented wasn't from the Qu'ran, as you suggest above. And it wasn't from the Bible either, as it tried to claim for itself. It came out of pure ignorance and I can think of nothing more that it represented, other than it also displayed a desire to ridicule Christianity by the tone with which it presented itself, highlighted, in my opinion, by its baseless and acerbic comments like "They not even right their last names." (Proof check your material enough to at least spell the word "write" right.)


    Christian members should acknowledge that the central tenet of their religion flies directly into the face of Islam and that they will continually be at odds with Muslims until they believe in the One God and that Jesus was as he claimed to be, a prophet and servant of Him.
    I think that most do. Though, remembering that Christians already believe in the One God and that Jesus was who he claimed to be, another way to no longer be at odds would be if Muslims members believed that Jesus was not only the Christ, but also the son of the living God, just as he is set forth to be in the Bible.

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    Re: Christianity in Five Minutes



    Peace be upon those that follow the guidance,

    Greetings to Gene and our other Christian guests,

    I am going to take it upon myself to defend brothers Khairullah and Khalid Yasin; I’m an acquaintance of Brother Khalid and Brother Khairullah is relatively new here and I will assume that he wasn’t aware of any mistakes in Brother Khalid’s speech. I’m sure that speech follows Brother Khalid’s “the Historical Jesus”. Brother Khalid consistently quoted from a book without giving us the title. Even I recognize some of the mistakes in the lecture, some from the book, some just a brother having a goof. BUT, I’ll also go out on a (relatively safe) limb and assume Brother Khairullah did not intend to offend anyone. I also should thank Brother Khairullah for taking the time to transcribe the video for us!

    Hopefully, Insha’ Allah, I won’t resort to name calling BUT I do intend to point out some discrepancies (as well as probably spell some words wrong)!

    First off, we should attempt to point out what our beliefs are and NOT misrepresent those as facts! Let’s start here:

    Very few people in the first century AD had last names. Note that even Jesus is known as Jesus "of Nazareth", not by a last name.
    Actually, the unknown writers of Matthew and Luke took some time to inform us of the identity of the Messiah. In Matthew 1:12-16 we have:

    12After the exile to Babylon: Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel, Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel, 13Zerubbabel the father of Abiud, Abiud the father of Eliakim, Eliakim the father of Azor, 14Azor the father of Zadok, Zadok the father of Akim, Akim the father of Eliud, 15Eliud the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, Matthan the father of Jacob, 16and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

    While in Luke 3:23 we have:
    23Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,

    Hopping back to Matthew in 13:55, we have:

    "Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Ergo, Joshua ben Joseph!

    Thus, according to the Gospels, he would have been known as Joshua ben Joseph [Anglicized of course] as was the Jewish custom for naming someone. So we DO have a full name for “Jesus”, don’t we? Just because Christians PREFER not to use it for obvious reasons, DOES NOT mean it didn’t exist. The Muslim name of Isa ibn Maryam, Alaihe Salaam, is probably the most accurate form that we have of his name so we have a right to ask:

    Mathew, Luke, mark and john who were they?

    Mathew who?

    Luke who?

    John Who?

    And mark who?
    So right now we can score Gene at ZERO and Khalid at ONE!

    Next:

    But some people did have surnames, and among those was a fellow named Mark. You see, Mark is his last name. His full name was John Mark.
    Great, we KNOW John’s last name, but we DON’T KNOW that he wrote any of the gospels!

    Of course, we have:

    He errs in that assessment. I believe that John did indeed know, walk with, eat with, and talk with Jesus. I also believe that this is true with regard to Matthew, though not with the same level of confidence that I have for John. I don't believe it is likely that Luke or Mark knew Jesus, however I do not suppose that it was beyond the realm of possibility.
    BUT do we have ANY TRUTH here: we know: I believe and I also believe though not with the same level of confidence as well as: however I do not suppose that it was beyond the realm of possibility.

    FANTASTIC we KNOW WHAT YOU BELIEVE and you haven’t bothered wasting time with ANY TEDIUOS FACTS! Or are we uncertain at the moment of the definition of fact?

    Let’s score you DOUBLE ZERO Gene for this bit of misdirection!

    we'll try to address authorship of the Gospels in the next post, Insha' Allah.

    Christianity in Five Minutes

    Had the non-believer known of all the Mercy which is in the Hands of Allah, he would not lose hope of entering Paradise, and had the believer known of all the punishment which is present with Allah, he would not consider himself safe from the Hell-Fire
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