Do none muslims agree that the quran has no contradictions? (OP)
Salaam 3alekum.
I have always wondered if the none muslims agreed upon that the quran is in a perfect state, free from any contradicts, accurate scientific proofs etc... since this forum has a very large number of none muslims so i though this is the place to ask..
thanks alot.
peace
After all, the entire New Testament has come down to us in Koine Greek, a dialect of Jesus’ day. However, almost all scholars agree that the mother tongue of the Jews in Israel was not Greek. As we will see, the New Testament records various words written in the spoken language and then transliterated and translated into Greek.
Aramaic
The "mother tongue" of the Jewish people in Palestine was Aramaic, but the language of commerce was Greek, just as it was in the Rome. There was even a rebellion during this time period called the Maccabean Revolt, which came about because some thought too many of the high priests were becoming "Hellenists". Anyone doing business in Palestine during this period would have at least had a passing knowledge of Koine Greek. I'm sure many conversations between Christ and His disciples occurred in Aramaic, but there were many instances in the NT where Jesus spoke to individuals who would not have spoken Aramaic, i.e, Pontius Pilate, the Centurion, and others.
Adding to that, the writers of the Gospels would have also had knowledge of both Aramaic and Greek, but Greek was the language of most writing during this time period, and they too wrote in Greek.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
Re: Do none muslims agree that the quran has no contradictions?
If you believe that Jesus was/is God, you'll believe anything.. after all God should be versed in all tongues in the universe he created.. even if he couldn't tell if a tree bore fruit in the earth he fashioned, or took some private time to pray to himself in the Garden of Gesthemanehe, he should in the very least be trilingual!..
I say whatever rocks your world..
cheers
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Re: Do none muslims agree that the quran has no contradictions?
I'm lost, PA. You first argue that Jesus spoke Aramaic and not Greek (which nobody is disputing anyway) and then try and support your case with a book that argues he in fact spoke Hebrew and not Aramaic! I'll refrain from any comments about reckless Googling..
Keltoi explained why Greek was used by the Gospel authors. In addition it is an indisputable fact that whoever wrote them, and who/whatever 'inspired' then by far the best language to reach the maximum possible audience (which was presumably the idea) was Greek. Had they been written in Aramaic (or Hebrew) Christianity would be just a footnote in history.
Re: Do none muslims agree that the quran has no contradictions?
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I'm lost, PA.
consult with a map!
You first argue that Jesus spoke Aramaic and not Greek (which nobody is disputing anyway) and then try and support your case with a book that argues he in fact spoke Hebrew and not Aramaic! I'll refrain from any comments about reckless Googling..
You ought to pay a visit to the good www.ccsom.org along with various other sites and have a talk with them about the confused state of christianity and why most aren't in agreement with our dear member keltoi...
I know however, we can't all hold doctorates on googling the way you do, be it to debunk everything from the coins of king Offa to undermining people's thesis, it has undoubtedly left us all in envy of your index finger and PI work!
cheers
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Re: Do none muslims agree that the quran has no contradictions?
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
consult with a map!
You ought to pay a visit to the good www.ccsom.org along with various other sites and have a talk with them about the confused state of christianity and why most aren't in agreement with our dear member keltoi...
I know however, we can't all hold doctorates on googling the way you do, be it to debunk everything from the coins of king Offa to undermining people's thesis, it has undoubtedly left us all in envy of your index finger and PI work!
cheers
know that you have caused an innocent person, not even yet finished with morning (!) coffee to be delivered unsuspectingly to calvary chapel website!
i don't know how you can sleep at night!!
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
Re: Do none muslims agree that the quran has no contradictions?
i have not read the tnire thread (just the first page), but I just wanted to say that I'm currently at Surah 7 or 8 (sorry, the last 2 weeks have been busy so I haven't had the time to continue my reading), and so far, so good. I find it explains things a lot more than the Bible or the Torah.
Re: Do none muslims agree that the quran has no contradictions?
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
know that you have caused an innocent person, not even yet finished with morning (!) coffee to be delivered unsuspectingly to calvary chapel website!
i don't know how you can sleep at night!!
Using ambien
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Re: Do none muslims agree that the quran has no contradictions?
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
consult with a map!
You ought to pay a visit to the good www.ccsom.org along with various other sites and have a talk with them about the confused state of christianity and why most aren't in agreement with our dear member keltoi...
I know however, we can't all hold doctorates on googling the way you do, be it to debunk everything from the coins of king Offa to undermining people's thesis, it has undoubtedly left us all in envy of your index finger and PI work!
cheers
You might want to actually link to something that supposedly makes your case...I don't have time to search the whole website in hopes of finding what you're referring to.
As for these scholars who disagree that Greek was in widespread use during this time period...well, I would love to see some evidence of that.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
We see evidence in the New Testament that Greek was indeed spoken in first century Israel. A number of Greek inscriptions have also been found in the land from this period (a result of the conquests of Alexander the Great in the fourth century BC). Greek for centuries had been the international language of the Ancient Near East including Israel.
However, almost all scholars agree that the mother tongue of the Jews in Israel was not Greek. As we will see, the New Testament records various words written in the spoken language and then transliterated and translated into Greek.
this I quote from a christian site, which has to jusify why their bible is in Greek.
I highly doubt Jesus spoke to his disciples or to the Jews he was trying to preach in Greek
323 BISHOPS OF NICENE [on majority vote] APPROVED THE "IMMACULATE CONCEPTION" and "VIRGIN BIRTH OF JESUS CHRIST" to Mary. Jesus Christ declared to be "GOD"—THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY GHOST" [today's "Spirit"].
followed by
350–400 NEW TESTAMENT CANON VERSION. The first twenty-seven [27] Books. A revision of the ORIGINAL total of forty-five [45] Books.
from the death of their God to 323 AD anyone can claim anything about what he preached and what he spoke. Keltoi's subjective views aren't shared by the majority least of which christians who claim as cited above that the NT was recorded in the spoken language, transliterated then translated into Greek!
Hope your day goes better from this point fwd.
cheers
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Re: Do none muslims agree that the quran has no contradictions?
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
you ought to keep going..
this I quote from a christian site, which has to jusify why their bible is in Greek.
I highly doubt Jesus spoke to his disciples or to the Jews he was trying to preach in Greek
323 BISHOPS OF NICENE [on majority vote] APPROVED THE "IMMACULATE CONCEPTION" and "VIRGIN BIRTH OF JESUS CHRIST" to Mary. Jesus Christ declared to be "GOD"—THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY GHOST" [today's "Spirit"].
followed by
350–400 NEW TESTAMENT CANON VERSION. The first twenty-seven [27] Books. A revision of the ORIGINAL total of forty-five [45] Books.
from the death of their God to 323 AD anyone can claim anything about what he preached and what he spoke. Keltoi's subjective views aren't shared by the majority least of which christians who claim as cited above that the NT was recorded in the spoken language, transliterated then translated into Greek!
Hope your day goes better from this point fwd.
cheers
You're making a non-point. Very few dispute the probability that Christ spoke Aramaic. You seem to be latching on to the issue of what language the Gospels were written as opposed to another language that was spoken. In all probability both languages were spoken by Christ and His disciples, not to mention a large portion of the Jewish people in Palestine. The Gospels were recorded in Greek, as that language was the preferred method of writing during this period.
What exactly is your point?
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
Re: Do none muslims agree that the quran has no contradictions?
the point is, the bible as you know it today, isn't what was spoken to the people or the disciples.. what you have is a nice work of Greek mythology with some random truths, of whatever was originally upheld in the original tongue before paul and your council got to it.
You maintain that Jesus and his disciples spoke Greek, but you have no proof of it save for wishful thinking!
cheers
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Re: Do none muslims agree that the quran has no contradictions?
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
the point is, the bible as you know it today, isn't what was spoken to the people or the disciples.. what you have is a nice work of Greek mythology with some random truths, of whatever was originally upheld in the original tongue before paul and your council got to it.
You maintain that Jesus and his disciples spoke Greek, but you have no proof of it save for wishful thinking!
cheers
It's called historical evidence...meaning historians and archeologists have more than sufficient evidence to state that the Jews in Palestine during the time of Christ were exposed to the Hellenistic Greek world the same as Egypt..you know that country right next door? Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it...it's called exposure to historical realities.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
Re: Do none muslims agree that the quran has no contradictions?
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
It's called historical evidence...meaning historians and archeologists have more than sufficient evidence to state that the Jews in Palestine during the time of Christ were exposed to the Hellenistic Greek world the same as Egypt..you know that country right next door? Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it...it's called exposure to historical realities.
exposed to Greek isn't historical evidence that, that is the language Jesus spoke or his disciples recorded their scriptures in. Any Arab Christian will actually contend on your above statement as a farce not 'historical evidence', in an attempt to give a middle eastern religion a western appeal!
To modern day clusters of Hispanics who live in the very heart of where the English language is spoken, can't communicate in a language other than spanish.. there need not even be evidence or scholars recording that Americans speak English, it has to do with the individual not the culture!
Jesus did not speak Greek because the Aramaic speaking people in the time of Jesus considered it sinful to speak any other language. This had to be true because the Aramaic Estrangelo Script was the lingua franca in Palestine at the time of Jesus. Aramaic in this script is similar to Arabic and this was the language of commerce and industry. A growing number of scholars now recognize that Jesus spoke this form of Aramaic, not Greek. The square letter Aramaic in Hebraic characters came much later. (See "Western Christian Scholars Awaken to Truth" in the Table of Contents on the Aramaic Bible Society Website). See Eusebius' "Ecclesiastical History", first published in 1928! Also, "The Age of Faith", Will and Ariel Durant's "The Story of Civilization", Vol. 4.
The Bible and the Aramaic Language
"Many of our Assyrian people in America unfortunately are unaware of the key which we hold to the Scriptures and especially to the New Testament through the Aramaic language that our Lord Jesus Christ spoke and preached
during His Mission on Earth." (Patriarch of the Church of the East, His Holiness the late Mar Shimun in an address to the Assyrians in Modesto, California, USA)
The Holy Text, the official text, of the Assyrian Church of the East is the Pe****ta Aramaic (also sometimes referred to as Pe****ta) which is the rich and authoritative Version of Aramaic language. 'Pe****ta' means 'simple', 'straight', 'uncomplicated', 'sincere'; it would be reasonable to infer from the combination of these meanings that here the word 'Pe****ta' denotes 'Genuineness'-------genuine form of Aramaic. (And of course this does not mean that other variants of the language in question are not genuine.)
As regards to the holding of "The Key to the Scriptures", credit ought to be given to the Church of the East and the martyrs thereof who throughout gave their lives for the preservation of the original scriptures handed down by the Apostles, from one generation to another, kept in the security of the Church. Let me again quote from His Holiness, the late Mar Shimun from His letter to a publisher on 4th April, 1957---He says: "...as the Patriarch and the Head of
the Holy Apostolic and Catholic Church of the East, we wish to state that the Church of the East received the Scriptures from the hands of the blessed Apostles themselves in the original language spoken by Our Lord Jesus Christ Him self and that Pe****ta [Pe****ta Aramaic] is the Text of that Church which has come down from the biblical times without any change or revision.
Re: Do none muslims agree that the quran has no contradictions?
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
exposed to Greek isn't historical evidence that, that is the language Jesus spoke or his disciples recorded their scriptures in. Any Arab Christian will actually contend on your above statement as a farce not 'historical evidence', in an attempt to give a middle eastern religion a western appeal!
To modern day clusters of Hispanics who live in the very heart of where the English language is spoken, can't communicate in a language other than spanish.. there need not even be evidence or scholars recording that Americans speak English, it has to do with the individual not the culture!
Why would an Arab Christian know more about the original language of the Gospels than anyone else? Easily answered, they wouldn't.
The New Testament was translated into many languages very quickly, including Syriac, Old Latin, Coptic, Gothic, Armenian, Georgian, Ethiopic, and Arabic.
As for the Pe****ta language you referred to, it didn't replace the old Syriac versions until the 5th century.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
Re: Do none muslims agree that the quran has no contradictions?
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
the point is, the bible as you know it today, isn't what was spoken to the people or the disciples.. what you have is a nice work of Greek mythology with some random truths, of whatever was originally upheld in the original tongue before paul and your council got to it.
A case you have still provided absolutely no evidence for. A modern Swiss might write down in Italian a series of stories told him in German, would that mean they suddenly become German "mythology with some random truths"?
You maintain that Jesus and his disciples spoke Greek, but you have no proof of it save for wishful thinking!
There is no way of 'proving' it, or indeed any other historical speculation, just as there is no way of 'proving' he didn't speak Hebrew instead, as your source claimed. It is however, likely, in the context of generally accepted historical opinion that they were familiar with Greek. There is also, as has been pointed out to you, Biblical evidence. Nobody is denying that it is most likely Jesus taught and made general conversation in Aramaic. That does not mean that those conversations were not recorded in Greek or, indeed, even that they were recorded in Aramaic and later in Greek with no significant risk of the kind of hideous misrepresentation you present as fact.
Re: Do none muslims agree that the quran has no contradictions?
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
A case you have still provided absolutely no evidence for. A modern Swiss might write down in Italian a series of stories told him in German, would that mean they sudden.
what are you smattering about? Do you have an inherent need to engage in every topic, whether or not it is completely beyond your scope of expertise? ... superficial reading and poor contemplation results in these seemingly endless and simplistic platitudes you chuck.. It is tiresome really--try to be more frank as to your purpose without concealing it.
You know what, I'll let you have it, maybe you can come out of the christian closet faster and stop being such a hypocrite.. Jesus preached with a microphone, dictating his divinity and in Greek in both the first and Second Council of Nicaea in the form of the holy spirit directly after his self-immolating act some hundreds of yrs earlier so none of it would be lost or fall on deaf ears!..
cheers
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Re: Do none muslims agree that the quran has no contradictions?
an elementary rule of Scripture is that God has deliberately included seeming contradictions in His Word to “snare” the proud. He has “hidden” things from the “wise and prudent” and “revealed them to babes” (Luke 10:21), purposely choosing foolish things to confound the wise (1 Corinthians 1:27).
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