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Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

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    Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity? (OP)


    DID JESUS CHRIST CLAIM DIVINITY?
    One of the most fundamental beliefs of Christianity is the divinity of Jesus Christ. We Muslim respect Jesus Christ. Islam is the only non-Christian faith, which makes it an article of faith to believe in Jesus (pbuh). No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus (pbuh). We believe that he was one of the mightiest Messengers of Allah (swt). We believe that he was born miraculously, without any male intervention, which many modern day Christians do not believe. We believe he was the Messiah translated Christ (pbuh). We believe that he gave life to the dead with God’s permission. We believe that he healed those born blind, and the lepers with God’s permission.
    Jesus Christ (pbuh) never claimed Divinity
    One may ask, if both Muslims and Christians love and respect Jesus (pbuh), where exactly is the parting of ways? The major difference between Islam and Christianity is the Christians’ insistence on the supposed divinity of Christ (pbuh). A study of the Christian scriptures reveals that Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity. In fact there is not a single unequivocal statement in the entire Bible where Jesus (pbuh) himself says, "I am God" or where he says, "worship me". In fact the Bible contains statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in which he preached quite the contrary. The following statements in the Bible are attributed to Jesus Christ (pbuh):
    (i) "My Father is greater than I." [The Bible, John 14:28]
    (ii) "My Father is greater than all." [The Bible, John 10:29]
    (iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…." [The Bible, Mathew 12:28]
    (iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…." [The Bible, Luke 11:20]
    (v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." [The Bible, John 5:30]

    The Mission of Jesus Christ (pbuh) – to Fulfill the Law
    Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity for himself. He clearly announced the nature of his mission. Jesus (pbuh) was sent by God to confirm the previous Judaic law. This is clearly evident in the following statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in the Gospel of Mathew:
    "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
    "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." [The Bible, Mathew 5:17-20]

    God Sent Jesus' (pbuh)

    The Bible mentions the prophetic nature of Jesus (pbuh) mission in the following verses:

    (i) "… and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me."
    [The Bible, John 14:24]

    (ii) "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent." [The Bible, John 17:3]

    4. Jesus Refuted even the Remotest Suggestion of his Divinity

    Consider the following incident mentioned in the Bible:
    "And behold, one came and said unto him, ‘Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?’
    And he said unto him, ‘Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.’ "
    [The Bible, Mathew 19:16-17]
    Jesus (pbuh) did not say that to have the eternal life of paradise, man should believe in him as Almighty God or worship him as God, or believe that Jesus (pbuh) would die for his sins. On the contrary he said that the path to salvation was through keeping the commandments. It is indeed striking to note the difference between the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) and the Christian dogma of salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus (pbuh).
    Note that when the man called Jesus good, Jesus admonished him instantly. Imagine, the man does not even want to be called good, how can one even think him to be God? I also want to point out that aside from declining that he was good, Jesus Christ also gave a characteristic of God i.e “……. There is none good but one, that is, God…….”. So over here Jesus says
    Jesus=Not good God=good
    It does not take a genius to conclude that Jesus=not God
    NOTE: I just want to make it clear that Muslims do not believe Jesus to be “not good” or bad (God forbid). We believe him to be not just good but one of the greatest messengers of God. I suppose that in this context, the word “good” implies divinity so it is solely for God here.

    Jesus (pbuh) of Nazareth – a Man Approved of God

    The following statement from the Bible supports the Islamic belief that Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet of God.
    "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God AMONGST YOU by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know." [The Bible, Acts 2:22]
    God said that Jesus was chosen amongst the people. Something I must say most Christians will disagree with. Did God chose His son amongst us human beings? Were we all candidates to be God’s son and then He chose Jesus? No. The fact is that it is the definition of a PROPHET that a prophet is chosen among his own people. This verse clearly implies that Jesus was a prophet.

    The First Commandment is that God is One

    The Bible does not support the Christian belief in trinity at all. One of the scribes once asked Jesus (pbuh) as to which was the first commandment of all, to which Jesus (pbuh) merely repeated what Moses (pbuh) had said earlier:
    "Shama Israelu Adonai Ila Hayno Adonai Ikhad."
    This is a Hebrew quotation, which means:
    "Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord." [The Bible, Mark 12:29]
    It is striking that the basic teachings of the Church such as Trinity and vicarious atonement find no mention in the Bible. In fact, various verses of the Bible point to Jesus’ (pbuh) actual mission, which was to fulfill the law revealed to Prophet Moses (pbuh). Indeed Jesus (pbuh) rejected any suggestions that attributed divinity to him, and explained his miracles as the power of the One True God.
    Jesus (pbuh) thus reiterated the message of monotheism that was given by all earlier prophets of Almighty God.
    In the Gospel according to Mark 13:31-32, Jesus is also reported to have denied having knowledge of when the final hour of this world would be, saying: “Heaven and the earth shall pass away but my word shall not pass away, but of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in the heaven nor the Son but the Father.” One of the attributes of God is omniscience, knowledge of all things. Therefore, his denial of knowledge of the Day of Judgement is also a denial of divinity, for one who does not know the time of the final hour cannot possibly be God
    “EVIDENCE” FOR JESUS’ DIVINITY
    There are a number of verses which have been interpreted by the Catholic and Protestant Churches as evidence for the Divinity of Jesus Christ. However, on close examination of these verses, it becomes evident that, either their wordings are ambiguous, leaving them open to a number of different interpretations, or they are additions not found in the early manuscripts of the Bible. Hence we can say that there is not single unambiguous or a single unequivocal statement of Jesus Christ himself in the Bible where he says that I am God or where he says worship me.
    The following are some of the most commonly quoted arguments.
    1. The Alpha and Omega
    In the Book of Revelation 1, verse 8, it is implied that Jesus said the following about himself: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” These are the attributes of God. Consequently, Jesus, according to early Christians, is here claiming divinity. However, the above-mentioned wording is according to the King James Version. In the Revised Standard Version, biblical scholars corrected the translation and wrote: “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” A correction was also made in the New American Bible produced by Catholics. The translation of that verse has been amended to put it in its correct context as follows: “The Lord God says: ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the one who is and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.’ ” With these corrections, it becomes evident that this was a statement of God and not a statement of Prophet Jesus.
    2. The Pre-existence of Christ
    Another verse commonly used to support the divinity of Jesus is John 8:58: “Jesus said unto them, ‘Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.’ ” This verse is taken to imply that Jesus existed prior to his appearance on earth. The conclusion drawn from it is that Jesus must be God, since his existence predates his birth on earth. However, the concept of the pre-existence of the prophets, and of man in general, exists in both the Old Testament, as well as in the Qur‘aan. Jeremiah described himself in The Book of Jeremiah 1:4-5 as follows: “ 5Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, 5 ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.’ ”
    Prophet Solomon is reported in Proverbs 8:23-27, to have said, “23Ages ago I was set up at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water, 25Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; 26before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world 27When he established the heavens, I was there.”
    According to Job 38:4 and 21, God addresses Prophet Job as follows: “4Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding... 21You Know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!”
    In the Qur‘aan, Chapter al-A‘raaf, (7):172, God informed that man existed in the spiritual form before the creation of the physical world.

    } وَإِذْ أَخَذَ رَبُّكَ مِنْ بَنِي آدَمَ مِنْ ظُهُورِهِمْ ذُرِّيَّتَهُمْ وَأَشْهَدَهُمْ عَلَى أَنْفُسِهِمْ أَلَسْتُ بِرَبِّكُمْ قَالُوا بَلَى شَهِدْنَا أَنْ تَقُولُواْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ إِنَّا كُنَّا عَنْ هَذَا غَافِلِينَ {
    “When your Lord gathered all of Aadam’s descendants [before creation] and made them bear witness for themselves, saying: ‘Am I not your Lord?’ They all replied: Yes indeed, we bear witness. [That was] so you could not say on the Day of Judgement: ‘We were unaware of this.’ ”

    Consequently, Prophet Jesus’ statement, “Before Abraham was, I am,” cannot be used as evidence of his divinity. Within the context of John 8:54-58, Jesus is purported to have spoken about God’s knowledge of His prophets, which predates the creation of this world.
    3. The Son of God
    Another of the evidences used for Jesus’ divinity is the application of the title “Son of God” to Jesus. However, there are numerous places in the Old Testament where this title has been given to others.
    God called Israel (Prophet Jacob) His “son” when He instructed Prophet Moses to go to Pharaoh in Exodus 4:22-23, “22 And you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord, “Israel is my first-born son, 23and I say to you, ‘Let my son go that he may serve me.’ ” [5]
    In 2nd Samuel 8:13-14, God calls Prophet Solomon His son, “13 He [Solomon] shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14I will be his father, and he shall be my son.”
    God promised to make Prophet David His son in Psalms 89:26-27: “26 He shall cry unto me, ‘Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation,’ 27Also I will make him my first-born, higher than the kings of the earth.” [6]
    Angels are referred to as “sons of God” in The Book of Job 1:6, “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.” [7]
    In the New Testament, there are many references to “sons of God” other than Jesus. For example, when the author of the Gospel according to Luke listed Jesus’ ancestors back to Adam, he wrote: “The son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.” [8]
    Some claim that what is unique in the case of Jesus, is that he is the only begotten [9] Son of God, while the others are merely “sons of God”. However, God is recorded as saying to Prophet David, in Psalms 2:7, “I will tell the decree of the Lord: He said to me, ‘You are my son, today I have begotten you.’ ”
    It should also be noted that nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus actually call himself “Son of God”. [10] Instead, he is recorded to have repeatedly called himself “Son of man” (e.g. Luke 9:22) innumerable times. And in Luke 4:41, he actually rejected being called “Son of God”: “And demons also came out of many, crying, ‘You are the Son of God!’ But he rebuked them, and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.”
    Since the Hebrews believed that God is One, and had neither wife nor children in any literal sense, it is obvious that the expression “son of God” merely meant to them “Servant of God”; one who, because of his faithful service, was close and dear to God, as a son is to a father. Christians who came from a Greek or Roman background, later misused this term. In their heritage, “son of God” signified an incarnation of a god or someone born of a physical union between male and female gods. [11] When the Church cast aside its Hebrew foundations, it adopted the pagan concept of “son of God”, which was entirely different from the Hebrew usage. [12]
    Consequently, the use of the term “son of God” should only be understood from the Semitic symbolic sense of a “servant of God”, and not in the pagan sense of a literal offspring of God. In the four Gospels, Jesus is recorded as saying: “Blessed are the peace-makers; they will be called sons of God.” [13]
    Likewise, Jesus’ use of the term abba, “dear father”, should be understood similarly. There is a dispute among New Testament scholars as to precisely what abba meant in Jesus’ time and also as to how widely it was in use by other Jewish sects of that era.
    For Christians, to think of God as their “heavenly Father” was by no means new, for in the Lord’s prayer they are taught to address God in this same familiar way.
    Further more, in John 20:17, Jesus told Mary Magdalene to tell his followers: “I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God.” Jesus’ reference to God as “my Father and your Father” further emphasizes the distinction between himself and God. Furthermore, by referring to God as “his God”, he left no room for anyone to intelligently claim that he was God.
    One with God
    Those who claim that Jesus was God, hold that he was not a separate god, but one and the same God incarnate. They draw support for this belief from verse 30 of the Gospel according to John, chapter 10, in which Jesus is reported to have said, “I and the Father are one.” Out of context, this verse does imply Jesus’ divinity. Let us read this verse in context:
    Joh:10:23: And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
    Joh:10:24: Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
    Joh:10:25: Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
    Joh:10:26: But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    Joh:10:27: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    Joh:10:28: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    Joh:10:29: My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    Joh:10:30: I and my Father are one.
    Initially, it says that no man can pluck the sheep i.e his followers out of his hand. Then it says no man can pluck them out of God’s hands. Then it says I and my Father are one, meaning both are one, not physically but one in purpose. Both have the same purpose i.e protecting the sheep. But Christians say that this one is ONE, in all aspects. Well let us read further. In the gospel of John, Chapter 17, verse 21:
    Joh:17:21: That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    Here, Jesus is talking to God, asking him :”that they (i.e disciples) may be one in us (i.e God and Jesus Christ). Here, the same one is used. If I agree that in John 10:30, the “one” used is one in all aspects, then the same “one” is used here. That means that the disciples also have to be gods.
    The Christians say that since Jews called him god in the same chapter, he is god. Let us read the chapter further in context
    Joh:10:31: Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
    Joh:10:32: Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
    Joh:10:33: The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
    Christians say that since Jews called him God here, he is God. No muslim has to search for a reply to this allegation, since it has been replied by Jesus himself in the next verse.
    Joh:10:34: Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law I SAID YE ARE GODS?
    What did Jesus mean by that? He is actually quoting book of psalms, 82 :6
    Psalms:82:6 I SAID, YE ARE GODS; and all of you are children of the most High.
    Here, “I” is the God and “GODS” are the prophet. So in the old testament, the word god is used for a prophet many times. Jesus Christ quoted this verse of Psalms to clarify for them, with a scriptural example well known to them, that he was using the metaphorical language of the prophets which should not be interpreted as ascribing divinity to himself or to other human beings. Jews alleged that : thou, being a man, makest thyself God, so he was practically telling them that it is okay if I say: I and my father are one, since according to psalms, prophets are referred to as gods and I am a prophet.
    Further evidence is drawn from verses ten and eleven of the Gospel according to John, chapter 14, where people asked Jesus to show them the Father, and he was supposed to have said: “Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves.”
    These phrases would imply Jesus’ divinity, if the remainder of the same Gospel is ignored. However, nine verses later, in John 14:20, Jesus is also recorded as saying to his disciples, “In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.” Thus, if Jesus’ statement “I am in the Father and the Father is in me” means that he is God, then so were his disciples. This symbolic statement means oneness of purpose and not oneness of essence.
    “In the beginning was the Word”
    Perhaps the most commonly quoted ‘evidence’ for Jesus’ divinity is John 1:1&14, “1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....14And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth...” However, these statements were not made by Jesus Christ, nor were they attributed to him by the author of the Gospel according to John. But let us agree with the Christians and suppose that these verses are authentic.
    Joh:1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (Hotheos), and the Word was God (Tontheos)
    Here, the word is Jesus Christ. In the Greek bible, the first God is HOTHEOS meaning THE GOD. The second god is TONTHEOS meaning a god or a godly person. So here since the word or Jesus is referred to as TONTHEOS, it does not mean that he is god. It means that he is a godly person. But Christians say that TONTHEOS is also GOD. Let us read Exodus 7:1, “And the Lord said unto Moses, ‘See, I have made thee a god (TONTHEOS) to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.” Here Moses is referred to as TONTHEOS. If TONTHEOS means the GOD, then Moses should also be God along with Jesus.
    An Immaculate Conception
    Christians claim that since Jesus had a mother and no father, then his father has to be God. Quran itself answers to this allegation with a beautiful example
    “Surely, the example of Jesus, in Allaah’s sight, is like that of Aadam. He created him from dust and said: ‘Be!’ and he was.” Qur’aan, (3):59
    For God to create a million Jesus, he can just say BE and it can be done. God does not require a father to make a human being. If I agree with the Christians that Jesus’ father is God since he had no father, then God is a father AND a mother to Adam, since he had neither. So Adam is a double God, something I am sure Christians disagree with.
    MIRACLES OF JESUS
    Unfortunately, those who claim divinity for Jesus, usually hold up his miracles as evidence. However, other prophets were recorded to have done the same or similar miracles in the Old Testament.

    Jesus fed 5,000 people with five loaves of bread and two fishes. Elisha fed 100 people with twenty barley loaves and a few ears of corn (II Kings 4:44)
    Jesus healed lepers. Elisha cured Naaman the leper (II Kings 5:14).
    Jesus caused the blind to see. Elisha caused the blind to see (II Kings 6:17&20).
    Jesus raised the dead. Elijah did the same (I Kings 17:22). So did Elisha (II Kings 4:34). Even Elisha’s bones could restore the dead (II Kings 13:21).
    Jesus walked on water. Moses and his people crossed the dead sea (Exodus 14:22).
    There are also texts in the New Testament which confirm that Jesus did not act on his own. Jesus is quoted in John 5:30, as saying: “I can of mine own self do nothing...” and in Luke 11:20, as saying, “But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the Kingdom of God is come upon you.” In Acts 2:22, Paul writes: “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know...”
    I will repeat what I said before. There is no statement of Jesus Christ in the whole Bible where he unequivocally or unambiguously says that I am God or where he says worship me.

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    Re: Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

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    was that your God in Narnia? likened unto an animal? or the one at wal-mart next to bratz dolls? or the one in the national gallery bought from Russia for 8 million?

    want to be given a break? you should give the world a break first from your fairy tales..

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    Re: Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

    format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs View Post
    since both islam and christianity claim to be the "one true religion" - doesn't this mean that in order for your religion to be right, the other must be wrong?
    i think so - and if so, there is an inherent problem here.
    Well not exactly, deep down inside. If a muslim doesn't believe there was ever a one true Christianity, or a one true Judaism, regardless of their current states, then you have some issues with Islam as well.

    The Quraysh felt that they had been left out for a while because they knew they hadn't received a divine revelation while the jews and christians had.

    It is quite possible to be a muslim and believe that one of the Christian sects is also correct (but incomplete) and one of the Jewish sects is also correct (but incomplete). The problem lies in the fact that the other faiths must also recognize the prophet mohammad to complete their own faiths.

    There is also a Fourth book, or religion that is never talked about.

    If you claim to be the chosen people, or if you claim to have been visited by god himself, or if you claim to be the final revelation then you're going to have these problems.

    What need for another revelation if god himself came down here to sort this out? No?
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    Re: Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

    format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs View Post
    since both islam and christianity claim to be the "one true religion" - doesn't this mean that in order for your religion to be right, the other must be wrong?
    i think so - and if so, there is an inherent problem here.
    Well one is purely monotheistic and the other is blatant polytheism and one's scripture is pure and unaltered whereas the other has about as many versions of it's scripture as you can care to count...I think the truth stands out clearly here?
    Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

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    Re: Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

    Please refrain from speaking on behalf of islam/Muslims, not only are you ignorant of theology but also of history....

    Your last sentence there, does remind me of a verse from the Quran-- I suppose kaffirs have always shared the same psychology, even thousands of years ago.. amazing thing this human condition... for God to show in the cloud with the angels, it would be a done deal, don't you think? what is the point then of being tried on earth? (everything on earth is already very splendid, must it also be super natural)?

    2: 210
    هَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلاَّ أَن يَأْتِيَهُمُ اللّهُ فِي ظُلَلٍ مِّنَ الْغَمَامِ وَالْمَلآئِكَةُ وَقُضِيَ الأَمْرُ وَإِلَى اللّهِ تُرْجَعُ الأمُورُ {210}



    Are these people* waiting, perchance, for God to reveal Himself unto them in the shadows of the clouds, together with the angels - although [by then] all will have been decided, and unto God all things will have been brought back?**



    * Lit., "they"-obviously referring to the people addressed in the preceding two verses.



    ** I.e., it will be too late for repentance. All commentators agree in that the "decision" relates to the unequivocal manifestation of God's will on the Day of Judgment, which is alluded to in the words, "when unto God all things will have been brought back". Since, in the next verse, the children of Israel are addressed, it is possible that this rhetorical question is connected with their refusal, in the time of Moses, to believe in the divine message unless they "see God face to face" (cf. 2 : 55).
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    Re: Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

    format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin View Post
    Well not exactly, deep down inside. If a muslim doesn't believe there was ever a one true Christianity, or a one true Judaism, regardless of their current states, then you have some issues with Islam as well.

    The Quraysh felt that they had been left out for a while because they knew they hadn't received a divine revelation while the jews and christians had.

    It is quite possible to be a muslim and believe that one of the Christian sects is also correct (but incomplete) and one of the Jewish sects is also correct (but incomplete). The problem lies in the fact that the other faiths must also recognize the prophet mohammad to complete their own faiths.

    There is also a Fourth book, or religion that is never talked about.

    If you claim to be the chosen people, or if you claim to have been visited by god himself, or if you claim to be the final revelation then you're going to have these problems.

    What need for another revelation if god himself came down here to sort this out? No?
    ok, i bite - what's the 4th book? (please don't say the book of mormon!
    as for the rest so yes, there are inherent problems here.
    but why can't everyone focus on their own religion and concentrate on living it (certainly not an easy path) and nevermind the others? i guess christians and muslims cannot because both proselytize.
    when you have 2 religions who both claim a monopoly on god and both believe in proselytizing, major problems are inevitible sooner or later.
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    Re: Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad View Post
    Well one is purely monotheistic and the other is blatant polytheism and one's scripture is pure and unaltered whereas the other has about as many versions of it's scripture as you can care to count...I think the truth stands out clearly here?
    i am inclined to agree with you - at least the first part of your statement. but i'm an agnostic, so ultimately i think these things are not knowable.
    personally, i believe in the oneness of god, but i have a hard time believing that any religion has a monopoly on god. i think god is beyond religion.
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    Re: Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

    format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs View Post
    ok, i bite - what's the 4th book? (please don't say the book of mormon!
    as for the rest so yes, there are inherent problems here.
    but why can't everyone focus on their own religion and concentrate on living it (certainly not an easy path) and nevermind the others? i guess christians and muslims cannot because both proselytize.
    when you have 2 religions who both claim a monopoly on god and both believe in proselytizing, major problems are inevitible sooner or later.
    Not quite, you have the Tawrat, Zabur and Injil, or the Torah, Book of Psalms and the 4 Gospels.

    I can't imagine why they're not divided as such in common discourse.
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    Re: Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

    format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin View Post
    Not quite, you have the Tawrat, Zabur and Injil, or the Torah, Book of Psalms and the 4 Gospels.

    I can't imagine why they're not divided as such in common discourse.
    yeah, i tend to forget that the zabur is regarded as a separate book in islam. is the injil only the 4 gospels?
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    Re: Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

    Injeel is none of the current four gospels, some contend that the original injeel was either written by the only disciple who actually hung around Jesus 'barnabas' .. some think it is a fake, whatever the case, we don't actually know who luke/mark/mat etc actually are, thus their books are actually very questionable according to Islam.. the original Injeel should be free from error as it is divinly inspired..(clearely not the case with any of the versions or the re-defined versions of what is now widely accepted)

    peace
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    Re: Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine View Post
    Injeel is none of the current four gospels, some contend that the original injeel was either written by the only disciple who actually hung around Jesus 'barnabas' .. some think it is a fake, whatever the case, we don't actually know who luke/mark/mat etc actually are, thus their books are actually very questionable according to Islam.. the original Injeel should be free from error as it is divinly inspired..(clearely not the case with any of the versions or the re-defined versions of what is now widely accepted)

    peace
    i know that the present 4 gospels are not considered the original. but the term injil refers to them, and not the entire new testament? (mostly paul anyway, i believe).
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    Re: Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

    There is some truth to what the atheist fellow said..

    there are however 5 books not four..
    scrolls (suhuf) of Abraham (PBUH), zabur of David, tawrat of Moses, Injeel of Jesus, and the Quran... Quran is the criterion of what preceeded...

    if you are Muslim, it all comes together in perfect harmony and makes perfect sense.. if any of the other, including Manadeans who stop at John the Baptist, they have a hard time reconciling the other scriptures with their own so they go for some character assassination, you'll find the Jews doing this of Jesus and Mohammed (PBUT)
    "Balaam also the son of Beor, the soothsayer, [did the children of Israel slay with the sword].3 A soothsayer? But he was a prophet! — R. Johanan said: At first he was a prophet, but subsequently a soothsayer.4 R. Papa observed: This is what men say, 'She who was the descendant of princes and governors, played the harlot with carpenters.'5 Did the children of Israel slay with the sword among them that were slain by them.6 Rab said: They subjected him to four deaths, stoning, burning, decapitation and strangulation.7"—I. Epstein, Sanhedrin 106a-b, "Sanhedrin II", The Babylonian Talmud, Volume 28, The Soncino Press, London, (1935), pp. 721-729, at 725.
    you'll find the christians doing this about prophet Mohammed.. their existence and survival of their religions can't be otherwise.. and it is very unfortunate...
    peace
    Last edited by جوري; 05-20-2008 at 08:54 PM.
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    Re: Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine View Post
    you'll find the christians doing this about prophet Mohammed.. their existence and survival of their religions can't be otherwise.. and it is very unfortunate...
    peace
    Actually christianity survived at least 500 years without islam or any attacks on the prophet.
    Admittedly those 500 years were spent wrestling with the bizzareness of their own beleif, but thats the rule with these things not the exception.
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    Re: Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

    format_quote Originally Posted by barney View Post
    Actually christianity survived at least 500 years without islam or any attacks on the prophet.
    Admittedly those 500 years were spent wrestling with the bizzareness of their own beleif, but thats the rule with these things not the exception.
    Eh, that is how it goes, when you have a new baby, the old one is jealous trying to re-affirm its existence, that is of course, if you'll forgive the analogy.. a lone child is odd indeed and needs some perspective!

    cheers
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    Re: Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

    Or the new baby copies the old one and can never live up to its older sibling. Hey, you know psychology. Which one is the more rational prospective
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    Re: Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

    format_quote Originally Posted by barney View Post
    Or the new baby copies the old one and can never live up to its older sibling. Hey, you know psychology. Which one is the more rational prospective

    if only it were true.. but the youngest, is also the oldest and stands above all...
    speaking of which.. I challange you to bring me just one chapter from any of the previous scriptures, say like that of suret al'3adyat (100) in complexity of language, content, complete rhyme/poetry/meaning/ or show me its semblance in the previous scriptures a mere 11 verses each verse no more than two or three powerful words, and considered by myself to be the most complex in language (Arabic is my mother tongue) that you'll not find traslations using same words to denote what the sura actually means...
    or do that for any of the others for that matter!

    peace
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    Re: Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

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    The Message of the Quran

    Muhammad Asad



    AL-ADIYAT (THE CHARGERS)

    THE HUNDREDTH SURAH
    Total Verses: 11
    MECCA PERIOD



    Introduction



    REVEALED after surah 103. For an explanation of the symbolism of "the chargers", see note 2 below.



    IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MOST GRACIOUS, THE DISPENSER OF GRACE:



    1) Oh, 1 the chargers that run panting,



    (2) sparks of fire striking,



    (3) rushing to assault at morn,



    (4) thereby raising clouds of dust,



    (5) thereby storming [blindly] into any host! 2



    (6) VERILY, towards his Sustainer man is most ungrateful 3 –



    (7) and to this, behold, he [himself] bears witness indeed:



    (8) for, verily, to the love of wealth is he most ardently devoted.



    (9) But does he not know that [on the Last Day,] when all that is in the graves is raised and brought out,



    (10) and all that is [hidden] in men's hearts is bared –



    (11) that on that Day their Sustainer [will show that He] has always been fully aware of them?





    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    1 Since the subsequent clauses refer to a parabolic, imaginary situation, the adjurative particle wa is more suitably rendered here as "Oh", instead of the rendering "Consider' usually adopted by me, or the adjuration "By" appearing in most other translations.



    2 I.e., blinded by clouds of dust and not knowing whether their assault aims at friend or foe. The metaphoric image developed in the above five verses is closely connected with the sequence, although this connection has never been brought out by the classical commentators. The term al-adiyat undoubtedly denotes the war-horses, or chargers, employed by the Arabs from time immemorial down to the Middle Ages (the feminine gender of this term being due to the fact that, as a rule, they preferred mares to stallions). But whereas the conventional explanation is based on the assumption that "the chargers" symbolize here the believers' fight in God's cause (jihad) and, therefore, represent something highly commendable, it takes no account whatever of the discrepancy between so positive an imagery and the condemnation expressed in verses 6 ff., not to speak of the fact that such a conventional interpretation does not provide any logical link between the two parts of the surah. But since such a link must exist, and since verses 6-11 are undoubtedly condemnatory, we must conclude that the first five verses, too, have the same – or at least, a similar - character. This character becomes at once obvious if we dissociate ourselves from the preconceived notion that the imagery of "the chargers" is used here in a laudatory sense. In fact, the opposite is the case. Beyond any doubt, "the chargers" symbolize the erring human soul or self - a soul devoid of all spiritual direction, obsessed and ridden by all manner of wrong, selfish desires, madly, unseeingly rushing onwards, unchecked by conscience or reason, blinded by the dust-clouds of confused and confusing appetites, storming into insoluble situations and, thus, into its own spiritual destruction.



    3 I.e., whenever he surrenders to his appetites, symbolized by the madly storming chargers, he forgets God and his own responsibility to Him.




    compare the translation to that of pickthal or some of the others!

    cheers
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    Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

    Beauitful recitation MashaAllah. I needed that ha. Relaxed my mind!
    Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

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    Re: Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Jazzy View Post
    Beauitful recitation MashaAllah. I needed that ha. Relaxed my mind!
    listen to this please.

    http://www.islamway.com/?iw_s=outdoo...1&rm_size=2.73

    here is the abridged version from youtube
    Media Tags are no longer supported



    and this one, another one of my favorites

    Media Tags are no longer supported

    if the link doesn't work?
    then
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=f_X1fEC2TMg


    and let me know, where those who claim the Quran is plagiarized from the bible, where the plagiarism actually is..

    There is no other book like it on earth!

    Last edited by جوري; 05-20-2008 at 09:55 PM. Reason: link probs with 2nd sura?
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    Re: Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

    Umm yea i cant see the second sis. We both know there's no book like it! Alhamdulillah! Doesnt really matter what people say, Allah Ta'ala has declared what He Wills and no one can change that The second is beautiful indeed and my favorite recitor.
    Last edited by Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн; 05-20-2008 at 10:01 PM.
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    Re: Did Jesus Christ Claim Divinity?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine View Post
    Injeel is none of the current four gospels, some contend that the original injeel was either written by the only disciple who actually hung around Jesus 'barnabas' .. some think it is a fake, whatever the case, we don't actually know who luke/mark/mat etc actually are, thus their books are actually very questionable according to Islam.. the original Injeel should be free from error as it is divinly inspired..(clearely not the case with any of the versions or the re-defined versions of what is now widely accepted)
    Actually, the Injeel was not written by any disciple. The Injeel was a Book of Revelation sent down to Jesus (pbuh); the Gospels we have today are not a corrupt version of the Book. They are written as accounts on Jesus' life and message. According to the rejected Gospel of Barnabas, Jesus received his own scripture from his Lord.

    The Injeel is no longer existent. Christians will argue that this is so because it never did exist notwithstanding that thousands of their books have been discarded, as they were not in agreement with their newfound creed. Anyway, that is the truth about the Injeel.
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