Atheism

**Ansar Al-'Adl** · 01-18-2005

Is there evidence to support the existence of a Creator?

**جوري** · 11-04-2006

Originally Posted by root

I like your choice of word, perhaps we are better replacing your "if" with something that better reflects reality.............

You are quite the connoisseur!

Originally Posted by root

Here is a little interesting fact for you; whenever UK doctors and surgeons hold a general strike (yes it has been known from time to time) less people die! Perhaps if we employ your sense of reasoning we should sack all doctors and reduce the UK's death rate!............

I don't see what medical error has to do with my argument?or are you confabulating? Also try to back your arguments with some kind of studies with rates of specificity, sensitivity and P values..... I seldom take "facts" at word value!

Originally Posted by root

Besides, I can't see why I would need to re-evaluate homosexuality with evolution since we currently have a list of over 450 homosexual practicing vertebrate species. Which coincidently begs the question, if God was so against it why did he "create" (please take that term with a pinch of salt) homosexual practicing species!

Good luck............

Simple..... species that can't propagate will become extinct. If there were such a thing as a "homosexual gene" in time it would have dissolved, as it is in fact useless..... It goes against all the principles of survival of the fittest and propagation.
I also believe that homosexuality is a choice. God gave mankind free will to do as he pleases. It is easy to pleasure the lower self......
Lastly I don't believe in luck it is just not visceral enough for me... so keep it for yourself, I hope it is of good use to you!

**جوري** · 11-04-2006

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

If homosexuality is genetic, evolution would not whipe it out if

1. It is a recessive trait, carried but not activated in some.

2. It is a continuum rather than a binary thing.

3. Social forces can inhibit it.

4. Homosexuals are physically capable of heterosexual sex and may engage in it for various reasons.

5. It is a frequent mutation of the 'heterosexual gene'

And I'm sure there are more, but thats what I can think of off the top of my head.

Why would you assume homosexuality is AR, why not a mitochondrial inheritance? why not an X trait that can only be passed down to males? why not a mutated gene of high pentetrance? ....... Recessive traits can predominate and be clustered should the need arise and if in fact they are useful ... for instance Sickle-cell disease is inherited in the autosomal recessive patter. You'll find it most prevalent in blacks from Africa, as they tend to have pandemics of Malaria. Malaria can't live in sickled RBC's so in fact if a recessive trait if it were useful it will continue. Contrast that with others that have become extinct because of their uselessness. That is God's will.....

I despise the idea that people simply hang an unacceptable bahavior on a "gene" rather than accept full responsibility for their own actions. oh it is the homosexual gene that made me do a lewed act in public said George Micheal. Oh it is just my extra Y chromosome that made me commit murder. oh it is all my mullerian inhibiting factor that made me covet your wife and seduce her.

God created intricacies in the human body. They act on their own volition. It is for people of knowlege to reflect, and for others to be misguided... God doesn't take away the free will of man to act as he pleases.He has set forth his laws in his revelations. Hence you are fully responsible for your actions when comes the day of reckoning.
Peace

**root** · 11-04-2006

Simple..... species that can't propagate will become extinct. If there were such a thing as a "homosexual gene" in time it would have dissolved, as it is in fact useless.....

You seem in my opinion quite one track minded. Homosexuality within the animal kingdom has nothing to do with sexual reproduction but can and does increase survivability.

It goes against all the principles of survival of the fittest and propagation.

Your one tracked mind rears again, are you implying that survival of the fittest is the sole driving force of evolution. What about the survival of the luckiest.

I also believe that homosexuality is a choice. God gave mankind free will to do as he pleases. It is easy to pleasure the lower self......

Are you implying that over 450 vertibrate species have engaged in homosexuality out of free will!

Lastly I don't believe in luck it is just not visceral enough for me... so keep it for yourself, I hope it is of good use to you!

Seems the dinosaurs fell foul of the massive impact from space, or perhaps some super evolved dino species learned nuclear technology and "accidently" created a super massive explosion that covered the earth with a layer of clay. Whatever the reason, I guess they would probably disagree with you and consider themselves quite unlucky............

**Ansar Al-'Adl** · 11-04-2006

This thread is not for homosexuality. We have already discussed this topic ad nauseum in other threads.
Off-topic posts will be removed.

**InToTheRain** · 11-05-2006

Originally Posted by czgibson

True. Atheism is a faith-position just like any other. I think what root meant was that if logic and belief contradicted each other, atheists would tend to choose logic and, in matters of religion, creationists would choose faith. On the question of god, since there is no established, objective or unambiguously logically rigorous evidence either way, one's view on the matter must always come down to faith.

I know what root was trying to say and I disagree. The idea that God doesn't exist is the most irrational and illogical idea to date and the idea only creates confusion. I respect your opinion as you are entitled to it, you are given a free will... but I have yet to see "Evidence" which proves the "Evolution THEORY", it is just conjecture nothing more...a bad one at that...as the Albert Einstien once said "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Originally Posted by czgibson

Someone who believed this would certainly count as being ignorant, for this is not a claim that evolutionists make. Evolutionists claim that humans and apes share a common ancestor, which is a different view.

hmmm...so apes and humans share a common ancestor? from where did this ancestor originate? how did the 1st DNA structure come int existence?

A pigs heart is used during heart transplants? why not use an apes since we have a common ancestor? does this also mean that a pigs and humans have a common ancestor?

Are humans of more intrinsic value than animals? Why or why not?

How does an atheist determine what is moral or immoral, right or wrong. Is there any objective standard or principles?

What do you think happens after death? Do you as an athiest care? Why is it that at the point of death athiests ask for people to pray for them? Why is that when a calamity befalls them they are quick to remember God?

According to the Laws of Physics, something can't come from nothing, energy is always connserved, not created. So how did matter and anti-matter come into existence or the universe? How did the equilibrium, harmony, and order of this universe develop? Does it make sense to say it all happened by chance?
"The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion on an intelligent and powerful Being" - Isaac Newton

Would aprreciate all the athiests in this forum answering the questions above!

Originally Posted by czgibson

Please read this and / or familiarise yourself with what a scientific theory actually is:

Evolution is a Fact and a Theory

can a man be short and tall at the same time :X

Peace

**Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн** · 11-05-2006

How can it be a fact and a theory? How is it proved and unproved?

**Woodrow** · 11-05-2006

Something can be a Fact in that it happens. It can be a theory as to how it happens.

It is a fact that Green apples will eventually become red ripe apples. It is a theory as to how apples ripen. Therefore the ripening of apples is both a theory and a fact.

**Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн** · 11-05-2006

a theory is not necessarily based on facts.
but ok i get what u mean.

**Muezzin** · 11-05-2006

Can we please have a discussion in this particular forum that does not lead to another mudslinging contest about evolution? Pretty please? Just one?

**hakkerz** · 11-05-2006

There should be a "There is no real scientific evidence, its just a matter of faith AND LOGIC" option...because i think its logical, but no such physical scientific evidence.

**Trumble** · 11-05-2006

Originally Posted by hakkerz

There should be a "There is no real scientific evidence, its just a matter of faith AND LOGIC" option...because i think its logical, but no such physical scientific evidence.

I think just 'faith' would do. Not because I'm saying the existence of God is illogical but that you simply can't come up with any logical argument for, or against come to that, the existence of God that doesn't have at least one premise that itself is purely a matter of faith.

**Woodrow** · 11-05-2006

Final house cleaning. One more post that is not about athiesm and this will be a closed topic.

**InToTheRain** · 11-05-2006

I would appreciate it greatly if the athiests could answer the questions I have asked in post #1066. Thanks.

**Trumble** · 11-05-2006

Originally Posted by WnbSlveOfAllah

hmmm...so apes and humans share a common ancestor? from where did this ancestor originate? how did the 1st DNA structure come int existence?

Humans are apes.

Different species of ape did, yes. I've no idea where it originated, other than the fact it evolved from something else. You need an atheist who is also a paleontologist or anthropologist to answer that, and they probably aren't sure.

Probably via RNA, that in turn being formed from less complex organic molecules. By 'chance', yes.

A pigs heart is used during heart transplants? why not use an apes since we have a common ancestor? does this also mean that a pigs and humans have a common ancestor?

No such transplant has yet occured with a human subject. The pigs concerned are genetically engineered to ensure the maximum possible chance of compatibility with human tissue to minimise rejection. No doubt you could similarly genetically modify apes (including humans) but the ethical problems are rather larger than with the poor old pig, and apes take rather longer to grow to breeding age. The "common ancestor" has nothing to do with it, although they probably have, yes, somewhere in the earlier history of mammals.

Are humans of more intrinsic value than animals? Why or why not?

No, not in my opinion. Why should they be? I suppose you could make that distinction if you used intelligence or perhaps even capacity to suffer as your criteria.

How does an atheist determine what is moral or immoral, right or wrong. Is there any objective standard or principles?

By taking responsibility to decide for themselves rather than delegating it it to a third party who presents their conception of 'moral' and 'immoral' as that of God. There is no objective standards for those things.

What do you think happens after death? Do you as an athiest care?

I'm not, strictly speaking, an atheist, but death is pretty much it. We return to that from which we came, although the resonance of our thoughts and deeds continues and may even be 'reborn' in another. There is no 'afterlife', the concept is only a comforting fantasy, a placebo, for those who fear death.

Why is it that at the point of death athiests ask for people to pray for them? Why is that when a calamity befalls them they are quick to remember God?

They don't. If you mean exclaimations of "God help me!" and such its just a culture/language thing.

According to the Laws of Physics, something can't come from nothing, energy is always connserved, not created. So how did matter and anti-matter come into existence or the universe? How did the equilibrium, harmony, and order of this universe develop? Does it make sense to say it all happened by chance?

Those laws only apply to this universe, they have no independent existence outside it, as being outside it is a contradiction in terms. There was no "nothing" for the universe to be created from, space-time began with it. As to equilibrium, harmony and order, if it had happened any other way there would be nobody to ask the question, so the concept it could have happened another way is meaningless. It happened that way, fact, probability 1:1.

**جوري** · 11-05-2006

I'd just like to comment from a medical stand point... we use (porcine) pig Valves for valvular replacements in humans all the time...... They last a good ten years before needing new replacement. Other than that I have lost all interests in these arguments. And don't wish to steal someone else's thunder!
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/304/5/258