I'd like to start of this discussion with my point of view on the existence of God.
First of all, while I do believe that the existence of God is something that can be recognized by all human beings, I don't believe someone can 'prove' the existence of God and guide an atheist to theism. Atheists ask for proof of the existence of God, and they ask that, if God truly exists, why doesn't He simply demonstrate His existence to the world by sending some sign down from heaven etc. Such a mentality is described in the Qur'an by God, revealed over 1400 years ago:
26:1-8. Ta. Sin. Mim.
These are verses of the Book that makes (things) clear.
It may be thou frettest thy soul with grief, that they do not become Believers.
If (such) were Our Will, We could send down to them from the sky a Sign, to which they would bend their necks in humility.
But there comes not to them a newly-revealed Message from ((Allah)) Most Gracious, but they turn away therefrom.
They have indeed rejected (the Message): so they will know soon (enough) the truth of what they mocked at!
Do they not look at the earth,- how many noble things of all kinds We have produced therein?
Verily, in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.
Thus, God mentions that He could easily send a sign that would cause them all to have faith, yet that would eliminate the test in life. We are being tested to see if we will turn to our own hearts and realize the signs of God.
It is perfectly acceptable to conclude the existence of God from His signs. Consider an analogy.
Members reading this post have concluded that the I, the author of this post, am a real person based on the signs of my existence. Yet, you have no proof that I am a real person and not merely an automated response, nor a figment of your imagination, nor that you are hallucinating as you read my post, nor that your computer has been infected with a virus that randomly displays characters on your screen in a forum post, forming the body of my message.
Yet, you know that there is a human being that has typed this post, and you know this based on various signs of my existence. The fact that I interact, the fact that I respond, the fact that I create posts and make a visible impact on the forum, the fact that I display human considerations and thoughts etc.
Simialrly, thesists conclude the existence of God.
I want to make it clear that I am not going to set out to prove the existence of God to our atheists. I can't give them faith, only God can, as He mentions in the Qur'an:
28:56 Thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.
And who are those who God guides?
42:13 The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, difficult is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).
So God guides those who turn to Him. The problem is that human beings, in their arrogance never thank God for the blessings He bestowed upon them. The only time they turn to God is when they suffer from a tragedy, the death of a loved one, then they realize that they are vulnerable and in need of God's protection. So many people only come to religion when they face massive problems and have to turn back to the same Creator the denied. They beg for the love with earlier they had rejected.
Many many people only convert when they realize they are in trouble. It is unfortunate that people foolishly wait for tragedy to turn them to God.
But why would God guide someone who does not turn to Him for guidance?
Coming back to the existence of God, the way I see it, there are many signs of the existence of God. Theists offer several proofs which I shall point out later on. However, the atheist seems to think that it is satisfactory to simply reject the proofs of God's existence, without any need for proofs of God's absence. Such a view is illogical, since believing that God does not exist is a belief like any other, and it must be supported with evidence. Yet an atheist can bring absoloutely no strong arguments to prove that God does not exist, so they operate within a vaccuum of evidence. Atheism is consequently a very weak position because it advocates a possibility like advocating that one's friend does not exist but is merely a robot created by extraterrestrial life forms. Sure, its possible, but its not likely to be taken seriously by anyone.
When I brought up this point in a previous debate with an atheist, he thought he could refute my point by challenging me to prove that an invisible pink unicorn does not exist, which he felt is analogous to asking an atheist to prove that God does not exist. I answered that I really did not need to prove the non-existence of an invisible pink unicorn since it has no affect on me. Thus, I would entertain the possibility if it was supported by some arguments the way theists support the existence of God, but I wouldn't reject the existence of an invisible pink unicorn if I cannot argue against its existence by providing proof of its absence.
But even if I accept the presence of an invisible pink unicorn, it makes no difference because I would switch then to religious arguments and analyse a belief in an invisible pink unicorn just as I would examine any other religion. The concept itself is contradictory because as soon as something is invisible, it cannot be considered pink since colours are the result of visible light energy released from electrons dropping in energy levels. And we would have to get into a discussion on the attributes of this creature as well. Consequently, it may prove similar to the Christian belief in a triune God, which I reject as self-contradictory.
So the problem still remains for atheists to prove the non-existence of God.
The other point I'd like to make is that atheists claim to reject the metaphysical world and all concepts beyond matter. Yet, they themselves have found that such a method is inadequate in explaining the universe, thus they have had to invent abstract concepts to cover up for their use of metaphysical factors in the universe. For example, we often hear the terms force, energy, and power in physics, but can anyone explain what these terms really are? Are they not concepts beyond the physical world? What is the source of all energy?
I'll leave it at that for now.
Last edited by Ansar Al-'Adl; 08-05-2005 at 08:10 PM.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
Likewise, if somebody originally claims that something doesn't exist, should they not provide proof?
No. Theists proclaim a god exists so it's up to them to provide proof. Atheists counter by saying that since there is no evidence for its existence, we shouldn't automatically believe it to exist.
No. Theists proclaim a god exists so it's up to them to provide proof. Atheists counter by saying that since there is no evidence for its existence, we shouldn't automatically believe it to exist.
So automatically u has to believe everything coming from nothing.
So what kind of proof u want to provide that everything coming from nothing.
Can u give single evidence from entire knowledge of the world and its history that someone find something which is coming from nothing?
No u can't.
So from ur theory its clearly proved u r wrong.
From the beginning to now human only have knowledge to assemble component from the nature and shape a material thing.
It is a very poor understanding to believe using human brain and proof everything and then believe.
Quran revealed more than 1400 hundred yrs ago. There are so many things Quran says. One of them Sun, Moon and Earth are moving. And Human found few yrs ago that sun is also moving. Quran never failed us.
Quran is still unchanged, was more than 1400 yrs old, Author is Muhammad (accroding to u) who is an illiterate man. So try to prove Quran is wrong.
It is so easy to prove us wrong. Isn’t it?
U can’t prove it wrong. It does not matter how hard u try. Quran also challenge this.
Note: Try something which u can capable of. Try not something which is beyond ur capabilities. Such as try to have a direct evidence of the existence of GOD.
^ i agree they are blind to it but i would say its due to prejudice against it.
Just thinking about the beginning of everything should lead to a belief of God really. If we know that close enough to everything in life has a manufacturer then we should also accept that the universe and this world has a manufacturer.
why be so stubborn against a manufacturer of the universe? If people claim that he is sending down messengers and books then that is good for us, why not be open minded and look into the message and really deeply contemplate over the existence of the one who started everything instead of always going "nope nope, not clear enough, i see no angels and i dont see God" <-- honestly think about how this sounds!! you have the books and you've been sent the messengers...
-
My tears testify that i have a heart
yet i feel me and shaytan never part
-
^ I think they do not want to believe that there is a God, because that would mean putting restrictions on the "so called enjoyments" of this dunya, in their eyes; drugs, alcohol, chirpsing girls, clubbing, etc.
If a person says that something exists, it's their responsibility to provide proof.
More accurately, if someone makes a positive claim.
"the sky is blue" it is their responcibility to provide the evidence.
If someone makes a negative claim, "the sky is not blue" it is not their responcibilty to prove the negative. "negatives are difficult to prove."
I don't think I believe in God because of any 'proof' that has ever been presented to me.
I believe in God because there was a specific moment in my life, when my eyes were opened; when everything I had ever heard, read and known suddenly fell into place and I knew: God is real!
Once I had that inner conviction of God's existence and presence, everything - every breath, every day, every living thing, every sunrise, every landscape - became living proof of his existence, and it became impossible to imagine life without believing in God ...
I don't think 'proof' alone can convince anybody of God's existence.
It also require an inner willingness to submit, to believe and to change. Without that willingness an unbeliever will always stay an unbeliever ...
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
I don't think 'proof' alone can convince anybody of God's existence.
It also require an inner willingness to submit, to believe and to change. Without that willingness an unbeliever will always stay an unbeliever ...
There is no proof that God exists or that God doesn't exist. Be on the safe side, believe in God or be burned in Hell for eternity (that is if God does indeed exist)
There is no proof that God exists or that God doesn't exist. Be on the safe side, believe in God or be burned in Hell for eternity (that is if God does indeed exist)
you make it sound like one day a man woke up and said "maybe God does exist ?"
it didnt happen like that, God sent messengers recognised by historians (Muhammad existed, Jesus existed, Moses existed! peace be upon them all).
So it isnt a haphazard thought which just randomly occured but has much backing.
-
My tears testify that i have a heart
yet i feel me and shaytan never part
-
I do believe that Allah exist. But I do try to be neutral and am not arguing here Serene.
For my part, Adam and Hawwa both as I understand were Muslims (Who believed in Allah). I am not sure, when Human beings stopped believing in Allah and started worshiping idols, fire, cows etc. (now I suppose we have over 100's of gods).
And as you can see, people have turned to science for an answer. As much as I adore science, I got to admit its limited to what it can and cannot answer. Might take a couple of thousand of years before science is close to see the unseen world.
But we all agree that the life of a human being is much less than a 100 years. And its up to that person to weigh the evidence he/she see to believe in God or not. For those who do not believe in God, be prepared to face the consequences in case God does exist.
Maybe individuals should state what they mean by evidence/proof and so forth. To some a sequence of which seem pretty normal may be proof, to others a supernatural personal experience may be proof, others yet state that taking into consideration everything being almost certain is proof, others still yet claim only testable evidence is proof.
Maybe this is where everyone is diverging.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
Thing is, Nerd, how would somebody make him/herself believe in God - just in case he does exist?
I can see that somebody might choose to follow a certain religion on that basis ... but believing in God?
Belief comes from within. How can someone just decide to believe something?
Doesn't there have to be some inner conviction first?
Can you explain what you mean by 'believing in God to be on the safe side'?
Thanks
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
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