Killing of First Born In Moses' Egypt:What's the problem???

[AntiKarateKid]

I dont get it. Allah controls life and death so why do people say, " Oh God is evil, he killed those babies." Moses had sent the Egyptian sign after sign after sign, after he had warned them again and agian. The families who refused all of this till the end got the reward they deserved. As for the children, Allah knows when to take life and when to give life. In His grand scheme of things, those people were meant to die then, and Allah knows best. As for their deaths, they were signs to the rest of humanity and warnings to be heeded.

Just because some people don't trust Allah's judgement and say nonsense like, he killed babies, desn't mean a thing. Yes those children did die, who was the one who allowed them to? The person who game them existence in the first place and chose to end their existence on THIS world at that time.

/rant


Anyways, waht are your opinions of this? I think the controversy stems from a lack of trust in Allah by some people.

[islamirama]

If you watch the Moses film made by westerners. In it, the farown ordered the death of Moses's older child and in return God punished them by killing the eldest child of each one of them and to show His power over farown's.

not sure what the islamic version is....

[Umar001]

Well this is the problem of viewing thing from a different prespective. Let me give you an example, if you ask someone if you can poke them with a needle they will say no, if someone from the jungle goes to a Doctor's practice and observes the doctor puncturing the skin of an innocent baby with a needle this jungle individual may, most likely, be disgusted, specially when the child cries. This is because the individual from the jungle does not understand the reasoning behind the doctor's actions, he has a different prespective of the action than those who understand the point of sticking a needle in a child. That's one thing.


Another thing is that killing is usually associated with a scenario. You see, words are sounds which have a meaning. They are a symbol. Killing, in humanity, is normally done out of selfish reasons. I say normally, meaning normal killing we hear of most, on the streets and so forth. So when we hear God killed we, I think, subcontiously associate this word/symbol (i.e. killing) in a way we would associate killing with a selfish reason. Many have to be asked 'What if God had a good reason to end someone's life' before they put such a possibility into the equasion.

And Allah knows best.

[glo]

Out of interest, how similar is the Islamic view of Moses and the Exodus from Egypt to the Biblical account?

[- Qatada -]

Out of interest, how similar is the Islamic view of Moses and the Exodus from Egypt to the Biblical account?

This might be useful;

http://www.islamicboard.com/prophets...run-aaron.html

[Al-Zaara]

Out of interest, how similar is the Islamic view of Moses and the Exodus from Egypt to the Biblical account?

The Story of Moses,based on Ibn Katheer

EXODUS FROM EGYPT and THE DROWNING OF PHARAOH IN THE SEA

[glo]

The Story of Moses,based on Ibn Katheer

EXODUS FROM EGYPT and THE DROWNING OF PHARAOH IN THE SEA

Thank you, Al-Zaara and Qatada.
There are clearly many similarities ... but I cannot find a reference to the killing of the first-born ...

[Al-Zaara]

Thank you, Al-Zaara and Qatada.
There are clearly many similarities ... but I cannot find a reference to the killing of the first-born ...

Ah, are you referring to islamirama's post where he speaks of that Western-movie of the Moses story, where the Pharaoh's first-born was killed after Moses's first-born was killed? Or are you asking if it is also in Islam said, that the Pharaoh's first-born was killed, or.. ? I'm a bit confused what you are asking for.

[barney]

The "problem" is only one voiced by non-theists of the judean-christian religion.

It stems from our beleif that killing without a very good reason, (self defence- combatants in war etc) is an evil act.
God diddnt warn Pharoh that he was going to do any of the plagues or the passover. He simply sent moses to ask him to free the Israelites, and in response to the negative response a plague was sent.
"Let my people go"
"No"
Plague 1
"let my people go"
"No"
Plague 2, etc...etc..

The veiw is , a kind just merciful loving God, would not under any circumstances butcher tens of thousands of totally innocent babies.

As always I like to delve behind the scripture with hypothesis. This is mine for passover.
The jews painted crosses on the doors of their houses so that the Jewish death squads that roamed the city that night knew which houses not to break into and slaughter the inhabitants.
An angel of god wouldnt need the marks on the doors to know which houses to hit. A Jewish death militia would.

[Malaikah]

I don't think the killing of the first born thing is an Islamic concept...

[glo]

Ah, are you referring to islamirama's post where he speaks of that Western-movie of the Moses story, where the Pharaoh's first-born was killed after Moses's first-born was killed? Or are you asking if it is also in Islam said, that the Pharaoh's first-born was killed, or.. ?

I am referring to the OP by AntiKarateKid, which seems to give the impression that the Qu'ran refers to the killing of the first born under Pharao. (Also see thread title):

Moses had sent the Egyptian sign after sign after sign, after he had warned them again and agian. The families who refused all of this till the end got the reward they deserved. As for the children, Allah knows when to take life and when to give life. In His grand scheme of things, those people were meant to die then, and Allah knows best. As for their deaths, they were signs to the rest of humanity and warnings to be heeded.

Just because some people don't trust Allah's judgement and say nonsense like, he killed babies, desn't mean a thing. Yes those children did die, who was the one who allowed them to? The person who game them existence in the first place and chose to end their existence on THIS world at that time.

In the links given by yourself and Qatada I found references to many of the plagues, but didn't seem to find anything on the killing of the first born ... so I am still wondering whether it is mentioned in the Qu'ran at all.

So far the evidence seems to point to Malaikah being right:

I don't think the killing of the first born thing is an Islamic concept...

[glo]

Barney, according to the Bible Pharao had been given very clear warning of God's punishment, and several times so ...

Here is just an example:

"Go to Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: "Let my people go, so that they may worship me." If you refuse to let them go and continue to hold them back, the hand of the LORD will bring a terrible plague on your livestock in the field—on your horses and donkeys and camels and on your cattle and sheep and goats.

The account of Pharao refusing to let the Israelites go, is an example of people persistently turning from God and refusing to listen and obey. The expression of 'heardening one's heart' is used often in this story, and describes it well.

[Al-Zaara]

I am referring to the OP by AntiKarateKid, which seems to give the impression that the Qu'ran refers to the killing of the first born under Pharao. (Also see thread title):


In the links given by yourself and Qatada I found references to many of the plagues, but didn't seem to find anything on the killing of the first born ... so I am still wondering whether it is mentioned in the Qu'ran at all.

So far the evidence seems to point to Malaikah being right:

Aha, OK. I think I have misunderstood something, for how I have understood this is that the Christian and Jewish view is that all the male-babies got killed, no matter if they were the first-born ones? For it is not mentioned in the Qur'an or Sunnah about first-born.


Remember when We rescued you from the people of Pharaoh. They were inflicting an evil punishment on you-slaughtering your sons and letting your women live. In that there was a tremendous trial for you from your Lord. (Qur'an, 2: 49)

Remember when We rescued you from Pharaoh's people who were inflicting an evil punishment on you, killing your sons and letting your women live. In that there was a tremendous trial from your Lord. (Qur'an, 7: 141)

[barney]

Barney, according to the Bible Pharao had been given very clear warning of God's punishment, and several times so ...

Here is just an example:


The account of Pharao refusing to let the Israelites go, is an example of people persistently turning from God and refusing to listen and obey. The expression of 'heardening one's heart' is used often in this story, and describes it well.

Exodus 5
Bricks Without Straw
1 Afterward Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Let my people go, so that they may hold a festival to me in the desert.' "
2 Pharaoh said, "Who is the LORD, that I should obey him and let Israel go? I do not know the LORD and I will not let Israel go."

3 Then they said, "The God of the Hebrews has met with us. Now let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God, or he may strike us with plagues or with the sword."

4 But the king of Egypt said, "Moses and Aaron, why are you taking the people away from their labor? Get back to your work!" 5 Then Pharaoh said, "Look, the people of the land are now numerous, and you are stopping them from working."

6 That same day Pharaoh gave this order to the slave drivers and foremen in charge of the people: 7 "You are no longer to supply the people with straw for making bricks; let them go and gather their own straw. 8 But require them to make the same number of bricks as before; don't reduce the quota. They are lazy; that is why they are crying out, 'Let us go and sacrifice to our God.' 9 Make the work harder for the men so that they keep working and pay no attention to lies."

10 Then the slave drivers and the foremen went out and said to the people, "This is what Pharaoh says: 'I will not give you any more straw. 11 Go and get your own straw wherever you can find it, but your work will not be reduced at all.' " 12 So the people scattered all over Egypt to gather stubble to use for straw. 13 The slave drivers kept pressing them, saying, "Complete the work required of you for each day, just as when you had straw." 14 The Israelite foremen appointed by Pharaoh's slave drivers were beaten and were asked, "Why didn't you meet your quota of bricks yesterday or today, as before?"

15 Then the Israelite foremen went and appealed to Pharaoh: "Why have you treated your servants this way? 16 Your servants are given no straw, yet we are told, 'Make bricks!' Your servants are being beaten, but the fault is with your own people."

17 Pharaoh said, "Lazy, that's what you are—lazy! That is why you keep saying, 'Let us go and sacrifice to the LORD.' 18 Now get to work. You will not be given any straw, yet you must produce your full quota of bricks."

19 The Israelite foremen realized they were in trouble when they were told, "You are not to reduce the number of bricks required of you for each day." 20 When they left Pharaoh, they found Moses and Aaron waiting to meet them, 21 and they said, "May the LORD look upon you and judge you! You have made us a stench to Pharaoh and his officials and have put a sword in their hand to kill us."

God Promises Deliverance
22 Moses returned to the LORD and said, "O Lord, why have you brought trouble upon this people? Is this why you sent me? 23 Ever since I went to Pharaoh to speak in your name, he has brought trouble upon this people, and you have not rescued your people at all."

Exodus 7:2-3
2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you.
14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is unyielding; he refuses to let the people go. 15 Go to Pharaoh in the morning as he goes out to the water. Wait on the bank of the Nile to meet him, and take in your hand the staff that was changed into a snake. 16 Then say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has sent me to say to you: Let my people go, so that they may worship me in the desert. But until now you have not listened. 17 This is what the LORD says: By this you will know that I am the LORD : With the staff that is in my hand I will strike the water of the Nile, and it will be changed into blood. 18 The fish in the Nile will die, and the river will stink; the Egyptians will not be able to drink its water.' "
19 The LORD said to Moses, "Tell Aaron, 'Take your staff and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt—over the streams and canals, over the ponds and all the reservoirs'-and they will turn to blood. Blood will be everywhere in Egypt, even in the wooden buckets and stone jars."

20 Moses and Aaron did just as the LORD had commanded. He raised his staff in the presence of Pharaoh and his officials and struck the water of the Nile, and all the water was changed into blood. 21 The fish in the Nile died, and the river smelled so bad that the Egyptians could not drink its water. Blood was everywhere in Egypt.

Sorry for the long post. As you can see, in the very first plauge, Moses hadnt said to pharoh, "Let my peeps go or I'll turn your rivers to blood". He just asked him to let them go, pharo refused, and moses promptly turned the rivers to blood. He had made a few snakes out of staffs by then, but hadnt threatened anything.
The Egyptian Gods had matched that trick with their own staff/snake combo and to give them their due as non-existant deitys, they went and trashed the remaining water supply by turning it into blood just to prove they were right up there with moses.
Hmm. Your nation is going to be short of water due to a Jewish prophet ruining the main supply, so your own preists trash the only other supplies in a game of one-upmanship.


Last quick point. Why was God hardening Pharohs heart? Gid he want to end up butchering Egypt? If he hadnt "hardened his heart", Pharoh would have prolly let them go after two or three plaugues. But instead, God deliberatly makes pharoh stupidly insanely ridiculously stubbon in the face of obvious divine power, culminating in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents.
Not to mention the remaining weeks and months of serfdom for his beloved chosen people.

Reread the first part of exodus Glo. I cant find anything that links in with a threat of plague.

[Malaikah]

Remember when We rescued you from the people of Pharaoh. They were inflicting an evil punishment on you-slaughtering your sons and letting your women live. In that there was a tremendous trial for you from your Lord. (Qur'an, 2: 49)

Remember when We rescued you from Pharaoh's people who were inflicting an evil punishment on you, killing your sons and letting your women live. In that there was a tremendous trial from your Lord. (Qur'an, 7: 141)

Sis I think you might be a little confused. The verses you mentioned refer to the Pharaoh killing the Hewbrew male babies, back when Moses was still a baby himself.

this thread is about the Christian belief that one of the punishments sent on the Pharaoh (when Moses is a prophet) was that God killed all the first borns of the Egyptians.

You with me? Or have I misunderstood you?

[YusufNoor]

I dont get it. Allah controls life and death so why do people say, " Oh God is evil, he killed those babies." Moses had sent the Egyptian sign after sign after sign, after he had warned them again and agian. The families who refused all of this till the end got the reward they deserved. As for the children, Allah knows when to take life and when to give life. In His grand scheme of things, those people were meant to die then, and Allah knows best. As for their deaths, they were signs to the rest of humanity and warnings to be heeded.

so, i'm hoping that you don't have a problem here...

Just because some people don't trust Allah's judgment and say nonsense like, he killed babies, desn't mean a thing. Yes those children did die, who was the one who allowed them to? The person who game them existence in the first place and chose to end their existence on THIS world at that time.

that's right, and there is NOTHING to preclude Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala, giving them all the best of the hereafter.

/rant


Anyways, waht are your opinions of this? I think the controversy stems from a lack of trust in Allah by some people.

&

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

are you trying to understand the exodus, or people not understanding the exodus?

but I cannot find a reference to the killing of the first-born

you mean the killing of the Egyptians 1st born, the last "plague" of Exodus, i haven't seen it in any Muslim histories.

The veiw is , a kind just merciful loving God, would not under any circumstances butcher tens of thousands of totally innocent babies.

i reckon most folks would see it that way...

As always I like to delve behind the scripture with hypothesis. This is mine for passover.
The jews painted crosses on the doors of their houses so that the Jewish death squads that roamed the city that night knew which houses not to break into and slaughter the inhabitants.

the Hebrews were slaves in Egypt, i doubt that the "Mossad" was that developed yet!

An angel of god wouldnt need the marks on the doors to know which houses to hit. A Jewish death militia would.

of course an Angel of God wouldn't need the sign. the painting of the doors was a command for the Hebrews. they were being trained to obey God. the Torah tells they didn't really get the idea in the end...

Last quick point. Why was God hardening Pharohs heart?

Firaun had publicly declared himself to God and it was the official position of the Egyptian government, part of the state religion

Gid he want to end up butchering Egypt?

polytheism and shirk are punishable crimes

If he hadnt "hardened his heart", Pharoh would have prolly let them go after two or three plaugues.

ah, but Firaun, much like today's non-believers, thought that he was better, stronger AND more powerful than God

But instead, God deliberatly makes pharoh stupidly insanely ridiculously stubbon in the face of obvious divine power, culminating in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents.

God can ONLY make Firaun this stubborn IF A) He exists in the 1st place and B) He really is Omnipotent! how do you blame the God that you think doesn't exist for anything????

Not to mention the remaining weeks and months of serfdom for his beloved chosen people.

makes perfect sense...

[Gator]

To the OP, it does not seem like justice in my heart. Deep down there is something very wrong with God's actions in this case (Again we're assuming God exists and all this happened.). I agree with most of the points, Barney raised as well (the Jewish hit squad hypothesis is a little out there, but I'll give you your props for originality).

So what about the Egyptian's who didn't hear about this or were not involved. Is it fair that their kids get killed? Don't the babies get a chance to redeem themselves and turn to God (since they have freewill this could always happen, but God cuts them down early)?

And this god knows best thing just doesn't fly. I don't go around defending serial killers saying, "Hey, they might know something about these people we don't so let's let them go!". Not gonna work in court.

If there is a god, her actions have to make sense to me and in a plethora of situations they do not.

Also, I find theists are very group oriented in there punishments where as I'm more individual. Examples are one Egyptian is at fault so ALL Egyptians must suffer, a few Jew's caused Jesus to be killed so they ALL must bear the guilt, Saul wronged the Gibeonites so his sons have to die for it, etc. I believe a supreme being would be able to customize a punishment rather than a one size fits all type of nuclear bomb approach (i.e. the Flood and killing first borns).

I guess that's why I have the negative reation to these stories that I have.

Thanks.

[Al-Zaara]

Sis I think you might be a little confused. The verses you mentioned refer to the Pharaoh killing the Hewbrew male babies, back when Moses was still a baby himself.

this thread is about the Christian belief that one of the punishments sent on the Pharaoh (when Moses is a prophet) was that God killed all the first borns of the Egyptians.

You with me? Or have I misunderstood you?

Aleykum selam,

Oh that one!!! Yes, now it's cleared, jazakiAllah kheyr Malaikah!

Sorry for posting nonsense people, I'll shut up now.

[barney]

To the OP, it does not seem like justice in my heart. Deep down there is something very wrong with God's actions in this case (Again we're assuming God exists and all this happened.). I agree with most of the points, Barney raised as well (the Jewish hit squad hypothesis is a little out there, but I'll give you your props for originality).

So what about the Egyptian's who didn't hear about this or were not involved. Is it fair that their kids get killed? Don't the babies get a chance to redeem themselves and turn to God (since they have freewill this could always happen, but God cuts them down early)?

And this god knows best thing just doesn't fly. I don't go around defending serial killers saying, "Hey, they might know something about these people we don't so let's let them go!". Not gonna work in court.

If there is a god, her actions have to make sense to me and in a plethora of situations they do not.

Also, I find theists are very group oriented in there punishments where as I'm more individual. Examples are one Egyptian is at fault so ALL Egyptians must suffer, a few Jew's caused Jesus to be killed so they ALL must bear the guilt, Saul wronged the Gibeonites so his sons have to die for it, etc. I believe a supreme being would be able to customize a punishment rather than a one size fits all type of nuclear bomb approach (i.e. the Flood and killing first borns).

I guess that's why I have the negative reation to these stories that I have.

Thanks.

Gator the "Hit Squad" hypothisis wasnt just a few Jewish terrorists. It's more like the Mahdi Army in Bagdad last year, but more organised and on a bigger scale. Like Krystalnacht in the 1930's Nazi Germany.
I dont think evry firstborn Egyptian was killed....think about it, that would destroy the population for years to come, and I'm not aware of the Egyptians even mentioning it which seems unbeleivable, unless the records were destroyed in the Libary of Alexandria.

I think over several days a Mhadi Army style force of several hundred or a couple of Thousand carried out daily slaughter and turned Egypts cities into no-go areas, where Egyptians were massacred in their own homes. Perhaps sevaral thousand died.
It's the only logical explaination why the jews would paint their doors with a bloody mark. What Angel of Death is going to flap over a house going, "Oops, nearly diddnt see that house down there was jewish....my bad". An Angel of Death knows the names ages and DNA structure of all occupants of all houses in the world. Whats with a mark on the door?

[Pygoscelis]

This is sick.

How can anybody try to justify such attrocities as killing all the first born of a whole nation?

And according to the bible story, the jewish monster god "hardened the pharoah's heart", he ARRANGED it so the pharoah wouldn't set the israelis free.