Hate the sin, not the sinner

Bumping this up ...

format_quote Originally Posted by glo

Greeting, all.

I am posting this, after having read the above post.

The saying 'Hate the sin, but love the sinner' is quite commonly used in Christianity, but I must admit that I was slightly surprised to read it in an Islamic context.


From a Christian perspective I interpret the saying to mean the following:

• To be forgiving towards those who wrong me
• To be aware that we are all sinners, therefore I am not better than the next person - in comparison to God we all fall short!
• To never give up on people who are engaged in 'sinful' behaviours, to continue walking with them, talking with them, praying for them (as others do for me)

Would that interpretation be acceptable in Islam?

The reason I am asking is that it doesn't seem to add up, when I hear about Islamic rulings which call for the stoning of adulterous women, and the hanging of men who are actively gay.
Killing people seems in direct contrast to loving them.

The only way it would make sense was if the killing of the sinful person was actually seen as an act of love towards them ...
Is that the case?
Can somebody help me understand this?

I'm not talking here for Islam, for I might say something wrong 'cause I'm on a hurry, but your comparsion to the Islamic rulings and that quote made me think this way, so these are my own thoughts mixed with many things I guess.

You hate the sin, yes. You do not hate the sinner, 'cause we all make mistakes, sure. Hate is a strong word. But that doesn't mean you do not punish the sinner for the hateful sin that is committed. Neither does it need to mean you do it out of love, to punish that is.

Just my thoughts, inshaAllah someone else will give you a good answer.

It appears that some Muslims have invented the phrase 'hate the sin, not the sinner' independently from Jesus (peace be upon him), but it might not be true...

Disclaimer: This post was made solely for the purpose of conquering the most recent posts. If it lacks content, don't bother complaining to me...

Thank you both, for your comments.

format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Zaara

I'm not talking here for Islam, for I might say something wrong 'cause I'm on a hurry, but your comparsion to the Islamic rulings and that quote made me think this way, so these are my own thoughts mixed with many things I guess.

You hate the sin, yes. You do not hate the sinner, 'cause we all make mistakes, sure. Hate is a strong word. But that doesn't mean you do not punish the sinner for the hateful sin that is committed. Neither does it need to mean you do it out of love, to punish that is.

Just my thoughts, inshaAllah someone else will give you a good answer.

Thank you, Al-Saara. I appreciate that these are your personal views.

I understand that you can love somebdoy, but still punish them ...
Is it then the case, that the punishment in Islam is carried out as an act of love, you think?
I can punish my children for some small dismeanor, knowing that I am doing so as a loving and responsible mother - are executions of sinners in Islam carried out with a similar attitude?
I suppose there is a difference, which lies in the finality of executing somebody.

format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman

It appears that some Muslims have invented the phrase 'hate the sin, not the sinner' independently from Jesus (peace be upon him), but it might not be true...

Disclaimer: This post was made solely for the purpose of conquering the most recent posts. If it lacks content, don't bother complaining to me...

Thank you, Fishman.

I have tried googling Dr. Tahir Ul Qadri. It sounds like he is a reputable and well liked scholar. Do you know if that is the case?

Peace

format_quote Originally Posted by glo

Thank you both, for your comments.

Thank you, Al-Saara. I appreciate that these are your personal views.

I understand that you can love somebdoy, but still punish them ...
Is it then the case, that the punishment in Islam is carried out as an act of love, you think?
I can punish my children for some small dismeanor, knowing that I am doing so as a loving and responsible mother - are executions of sinners in Islam carried out with a similar attitude?
I suppose there is a difference, which lies in the finality of executing somebody.

You are most welcome.

No, what I was saying is you can punish someone without getting those feelings of love or hate involved, acccording to me that is.
A judgde does that, he/she follows the rules that have been set and punishes according to it (well then there can be emotional things involved etc, but if we keep it real simple now).

When you punish, you do it 'cause the person was disobedient to the rules, isn't it like that? You show what happens when you do not follow the rules.

A mother to a child is much different, there is love involved, while when giving out an judgment it is according to what one has done wrong, I guess as I already said it's more to show to others 'this is what happens if you don't listen'.

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc

This concept is foreign to my understanding of Islam. Punishment for certain acts - 100 lashes for fornication, stoning for adultery, cutting off hand for stealing, execution for murder - is not done in a "spirit of love".

It puzzled me too, Mustafa.
That's why I asked the question.
I will try to find out more about in which context Dr. Tahir Ul Qadri used the expression.

Peace

A mum who smacks her child who cant speak or understand,if theyre about to stick their hand into a plug socket. That soulds like a act of desperation to protect the child. So it's in the end loving.

A Mum who follows scripture and stones their child to death for disrespecting her (deutronomy 21:18), might not have quite so firm a basis that their act was a loving one.

So what is Sin?

Glo, I heard that expression from another friend. I'll try to get more information on it for you.

EDIT: It's also in someone's signature here, in the first post:

http://www.pakin.no/discuss/topic.asp?tid=7550&fid=19

EDIT 2: Also, there seems to be a discussion from post 7 (hate the sin, not the sinner) in here:

http://www.therevival.co.uk/node/1781?page=1

Edit 3:

HIV, AIDS, Stigma, and Discrimination ...

Would that we Pakistanis could learn the maxim:

“Hate the sin, not the sinner”

The stigma and discrimination against HIV/AIDS isn’t going to end until we follow this maxim, but it will take a revolution of sorts if we want people to think the way this maxim wants us to think. This revolution will have to begin with you. But you got to realize that HIV/AIDS isn’t the only stigma in Pakistan. All sorts of things become a stigma in my beloved country, for example:
· You are stigmatized if you are black in color (I am talking about color here, not race).
· You are stigmatized if you are poor
· You are stigmatized if you belong to a lesser caste
· You are stigmatized if you suffer from a mental disorder (schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, depression, etc)
· You are stigmatized if you are “low” in “status”
· You are stigmatized if you are infertile (this holds true for both men and women, but especially for women)
· You are stigmatized if you are ugly

I speak from personal experience in a public health setting. Many people would try to hide a family member’s mental illness or the fact that their child is an adopted one and not their biological child. Most poor people will take loan and spend at least a hundred thousand rupees on their daughter’s wedding only to save them from being stigmatized. If you are an infertile woman, then the people around you will give you less respect. If you belong to a lesser caste, you would wish you could lie about it. If your dad were a sweeper at the hospital, you would work your way out of this by telling people that your father is “employed” at the hospital.

Historically speaking, this stigmatism that has pervaded all strata of Pakistani society was (and still is) the mark of Hindu society. Our one-and-a-half-millennium long affair with the Hindu culture gave us this gift of stigmatization. Now it is time for us to throw it into the dustbin.

Pakistani society is a sexually corrupt society (yes, it is) sitting at the brink of a general HIV epidemic. While we are expecting the numbers of HIV-infected persons to rise in the coming years, I am not foreseeing any amount of reduction in stigma and discrimination against HIV/AIDS until you and I start caring for the HIV-infected person. Till then, the people living with HIV/AIDS will have to live in Hell.

Source

I don't think it is as simple as yes we agree or no we dont agree.

In some cases we agree and in some cases we dont, it depends.

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc

This concept is foreign to my understanding of Islam. Punishment for certain acts - 100 lashes for fornication, stoning for adultery, cutting off hand for stealing, execution for murder - is not done in a "spirit of love".

That isn't, no. The "spirit of love" part of it comes before that. Contrary to popular belief, we must not hasten to punish people. Punishment should be seen as an absolute last resort, but that's a rant for another day, and another member with better knowledge of Islamic jurisprudence than I.

format_quote Originally Posted by glo

Greeting, all.

I am posting this, after having read the above post.

The saying 'Hate the sin, but love the sinner' is quite commonly used in Christianity, but I must admit that I was slightly surprised to read it in an Islamic context.

From a Christian perspective I interpret the saying to mean the following:

• To be forgiving towards those who wrong me
• To be aware that we are all sinners, therefore I am not better than the next person - in comparison to God we all fall short!
• To never give up on people who are engaged in 'sinful' behaviours, to continue walking with them, talking with them, praying for them (as others do for me)

Would that interpretation be acceptable in Islam?

The reason I am asking is that it doesn't seem to add up, when I hear about Islamic rulings which call for the stoning of adulterous women, and the hanging of men who are actively gay.
Killing people seems in direct contrast to loving them.

The only way it would make sense was if the killing of the sinful person was actually seen as an act of love towards them ...
Is that the case?
Can somebody help me understand this?

Hey,

As I mentioned before it depends on who you are speaking of, you as a Christian might claim to hate the sin and love the sinner but do you love satan? If you believe that there is a being called the devil/lucifer or anything who willingly opposes God do you love him? Can someone you love be an enemy? Do you also mean that you love someone more than God loves them? Because God will punish some people who sin.

Of course we are all sinners but there are different types of sinners, some who sin out of weakness for example and some out of arrogance, obviously they are different in station with regardst to love.

Also with regards to your not understanding the punishment, sometimes the punishment may be expiation, so through it they are forgiven in the next world?

EDIT:Thought I'd add this video didnt know whether I should but anyways here it goes:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5oVkHM...eature=related

I dont know if what the brother is saying is coveyed fully in those clips.

Greetings Al Habeshi

You raise some very interesting points.
Since we are in the 'Learn about Islam' section here, I am reluctant to enter into a discussion about Christianity.
Better to take that into the 'Comparative Religions' section. (It would make a great debate there, I am sure)
I merely explained my own understanding of 'Hate the sin, but love the sinner' in my OP to have something to measure the Islamic understanding against.

Thanks for your contributions, all.
This is turning into an interesting discussion. People are bringing very different points of view.

Salaam

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

Hey,

As I mentioned before it depends on who you are speaking of, you as a Christian might claim to hate the sin and love the sinner but do you love satan? If you believe that there is a being called the devil/lucifer or anything who willingly opposes God do you love him? Can someone you love be an enemy? Do you also mean that you love someone more than God loves them? Because God will punish some people who sin.

Of course we are all sinners but there are different types of sinners, some who sin out of weakness for example and some out of arrogance, obviously they are different in station with regardst to love.

Also with regards to your not understanding the punishment, sometimes the punishment may be expiation, so through it they are forgiven in the next world?

EDIT:Thought I'd add this video didnt know whether I should but anyways here it goes:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5oVkHM...eature=related

I dont know if what the brother is saying is coveyed fully in those clips.

All praise to Allaah, may He reward you and increase your knowledge, JazakAllahu Khayr for that excellent post

Hey Glo,

Yes, I only brought the point to you because I find it it helps me understand when someone puts something into 'my' context.

But yes, what I was trying to show is that there are different types of sinners therefore different ways of dealing with them.

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

Hey Glo,

Yes, I only brought the point to you because I find it it helps me understand when someone puts something into 'my' context.

But yes, what I was trying to show is that there are different types of sinners therefore different ways of dealing with them.

Thank you, Al Habeshi

Do you think it is a personal choice to what extend one might find it in oneself to 'love the sinner'?
For example, you might be able to love and forgive somebody who burgled your house, but not somebody who murdered a loved one?

In the Islamic context, is there any specific teaching which instructs Muslims ' 'hate the sin, but not the sinner'?
(Apart from Dr. Tahir Ul Qadri, who I am still trying to find ut about)

It may be that the Islamic interpretation of such a saying is quite different from my own ...