why is disbelief a crime?

format_quote Originally Posted by elusive

To suggest that disbelievers are people who know islam is the truth but hide it is even more ridiculous as no sane person would willingly choose to go to hellfire to have their skins burnt of over and over again.

Where did you get this from? Who told you that?

non muslims unreached by the message of Islam do not automatically go to hell; they are put to a further test on the day of judgement and the outcome of that test determines wether they are saved on not; the hadiths on this indicates that those who would have converted to Islam on receiving a proper message of Islam would pass the test and those who wouldn't have, would fail:

the Prophet said, upon him blessings and peace: Four will present excuses on the Day of Resurrection: The deaf one, the idiot, the senile old man, and the one who died in Fatra (the time between Prophets). The first will say, I didn't hear anything; the second, Islam came and street-children were throwing dung at me; the third, Islam came and I did not have my wits about me, and the fourth: my Lord, no Messenger came to me. Allah will Himself take their covenant to obey Him. They will be told to enter the fire (as a test). Those who obey will find it cool and safe, while those who refuse will be dragged to it. (Aswad, Abu Hurayra)

Al-Bazzar and al-Tirmidhi who graded it hasan narrated that the Prophet said, upon him blessings and peace: The one who died in Fatra, the retard, and the infant will say respectively: No Book or Messenger reached me; You gave me no mind wherewith to understand good or evil; I did not have a chance to do anything. A fire will be presented to them and they will be told to enter it. Those who would have done well in life will obey and enter it (temporarily) while those who would have disobeyed in life will refuse. Allah will tell them: You disobey Me (seeing Me), so how could you obey My Messengers in My absence? (Abu Sa`id al-Khudri)

Al-Bazzar and Abu Ya`la narrated tha same as b) with the addition of the senile old man. Those who obey and enter the fire will go across it speedily. (Anas)

`Abd al-Razzaq, Ibn Jarir, Ibn al-Mundhir, Ibn Hatim, with an authentic chain that meets the criteria of al-Bukhari and Muslim: The Prophet said, upon him blessings and peace: The one who died in Fatra, the idiot, the deaf, the mute, and the senile will be sent a messenger (at that time) who will say: Enter the fire. They will argue and say: How can it be when no messenger reached us? But woe to them! If they had entered it they would have found it cool and safe. Whoever accepts and obeys will enter it. Abu Hurayra added: Read, We never punish until We send a messenger? (17:15).

Al-Bazzar and al-Hakim, who graded it sahih by the criteria of Bukhari and Muslim narrated that the Prophet said, upon him blessings and peace: The people of Jahiliyya will come on the Day of Judgment carrying their idols on their backs. Allah will question them and they will say: Our Lord, You did not send us a Messenger and nothing from You reached us. If you had sent us one, we would have been your most obedient servants. Allah will say: Shall I test your obedience? And He will tell them to enter the fire and stay in it. They will enter it and return again, in fear of its fury and exhalations, and they will say: Our Lord, protect us from it. He will say: Didn't you promise to obey Me if I ordered you something? They will pledge again and enter it, only to come back and plead again. The Prophet said: Had they stayed in it the first time, they would have found it cool and safe. (Thawban)

Al-Tabarani and Abu Nu`aym narrated that the Prophet said, upon him blessings and peace: The retard will come on the Day of Judgment together with the one who died in fatra and the infant etc. (same as(e)) They will keep coming back although the fire would not have hurt them, and Allah will say: I knew your actions from afore, so take them (O Fire).

thus only those non muslims who have been reached by the message of Islam, and thereafter rejected it will be guilty of the crime of desbelief

thats fair isn't it?

format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender

Where did you get this from? Who told you that?

i have read that Kufar has a root meaning of hiding something and so some have taken it to mean that kufar know islam is true but hide it

want to have a go at awnsering my question?

why is disbelief wrong?

firstly lets define belief as loosely as possible.

the whole point of the quran was to let people know that there is a universal god.. and its quite easy to acknowledge and believe in.


disbelief sounds like when somebody says they are an athiest or professes no firm belief you can relate to. but in actual fact, disbelief is moving away from the simple truth.

the things that people do or invent to cover the true nature of god and his acknowledgment.

things like animal sacrifice.

idol worship.

attributing laws and pre-requsites to god which where not there in the first place.



so you have to be very careful in what you actually "believe in"

the world today is literally the blind following the blind.. but you follow what pleases you or what is "relevant" or what you can relate to.

and eventually that is what you will be judged on...

and if it was differing or misguiding from the original principles of the religion.. welp.. thats your problem.


i mean today is green hat day, lets all wear green hats.

its not that simple but im sure if you look hard enough.. you will find the green hat sect.

edit..

you could talk around the subject all day but even then not fully explain it.

so best to refer back to the quran, the most perfect and complete of explanations on belief and disbelief.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk

You are ignoring the fact that humans are a lot of the times a slave to their lower desires. Logically, it wouldn't make sense to reject the truth and suffer in the afterlife. BUT.. just how often are human beings logical? If we're always logical, we wouldn't have a problem with obesity because logically it wouldn't make sense to consume more energy than your body needs. If we're always logical, people wouldn't be thousands of dollars in debt because logically it wouldn't make sense to spend more money than you can afford. If we're always logical, people wouldn't even touch alcohol because logically it wouldn't make sense to consume something where the negative effects outweighs(heavily) the positive. It's a long list..

The fact is that you can claim to be logical as much as you want but at the end of the day you must admit that a lot of the times human beings choose pleasure of the "here and now" despite knowing that there will be a heavy price in the future.

Note that I am merely addressing your flawed assumption.*

format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk

You are ignoring the fact that humans are a lot of the times a slave to their lower desires. Logically, it wouldn't make sense to reject the truth and suffer in the afterlife. BUT.. just how often are human beings logical? If we're always logical, we wouldn't have a problem with obesity because logically it wouldn't make sense to consume more energy than your body needs. If we're always logical, people wouldn't be thousands of dollars in debt because logically it wouldn't make sense to spend more money than you can afford. If we're always logical, people wouldn't even touch alcohol because logically it wouldn't make sense to consume something where the negative effects outweighs(heavily) the positive. It's a long list..

The fact is that you can claim to be logical as much as you want but at the end of the day you must admit that a lot of the times human beings choose pleasure of the "here and now" despite knowing that there will be a heavy price in the future.

Note that I am merely addressing your flawed assumption.*

while i apreciate the effort, most of you seem to have mis-understood the question, except the poster who i have quoted so i will address their post.

The examples you give are not the same as knowing you will go to hellfire and not doing anything. most people who do things which have consequences like the ones you mention often think 'oh it will be ok in the end' or somthing along those lines, for example people who smoke do not think they are going to get cancer, people who take out big loans they can't handle think that it will be ok.

for example if you believe that people are willing to go to hellfire, think about this situation, if you went on the street right now with a million dollars/pounds/euros whatever, and said to people i will give you all this money but this time next year im going to lock you in a room and burn your skin every single day for the rest of your life, who would give into their "lower desires" and take the money? only a crazy man

i think an important point to mention is that the world we live in is not just the visible, tangible world.

another important thing that we all know is that god will, will be done.. i often hear people say allah swt just needs an excuse to help you.

it is much the same with created evil.. its just your actions allowing things to happen.


as for worldly matters, who knows what is selflessness and what is foolishness.. people use all sorts of strategies just to make it in the world.

and i can tell you, if you turn your back on the world then you are of no use to it.. nobody will call you back to it..


everybody makes moves to make moves.. who you call upon in your times of need and ease.. is a case of belief?

how the answer comes is just a case of living and learning.

The examples I gave demonstrate that human beings have the tendency to do something to enjoy temporary pleasure despite knowing that such an action will have negative effects. As I mentioned in my previous post I was just addressing your statement in particular where it was assumed that people would obviously do the logical thing

ok

You are right in that a lot of people have the "oh it will be ok in the end" mentality, however this mentality is often heavily influenced by their desire in the first place. When the poop hits the fan they will be going "What was I thinking?".

i agree, bear in mind however whilst their desires often cause this state of mind, it is not always a concious choice

Firstly, the only way to really know something for sure is to gain knowledge. Are you assuming that I am saying that people who reject Islam KNOW that Islam is the truth but intentionally rejecting it? Cause I never said that. Without knowledge there can be no certainty, if a non-muslim were to open up the news channel and see a bunch of terrorists and then decide that Islam is not the truth. Do you think that from Islam's perspective the viewer "knows" the truth yet reject it? That would be silly. The viewer was presented with merely the news' presentation of Islam.

i wasnt talking about this

On your analogy about the million dollars and burning skin. It is flawed as well. The situation is different when the human being is experiencing it "up front". Just look at anyone who practices any religion, if your analogy is correct then anyone who practices religion would be SINLESS

not neccesarily, people have differant amounts of faith or iman as you call it, whilst muslims sin, if they could see for example God watching over them, there iman would be so strong all the time they wouldn't miss a prayer or do anything bad. it reminds me of the situation with one of my muslim friends. recently he said "i am a part time muslim" (in that he doesn't practise all the time) and i asked him well do you believe in it and he said yes, im sure calling yourself a part time muslim is a very bad thing in islam and he knows this so why does he do it? what does he gain from even calling himself that? what desire would he have to call himself that? he obviously doesn't have complete faith in islam.

But hey, if you still think your analogy makes sense then more power to you man. Also do read what some of the other posters replied especially the ones with the word "arrogance" as it is a big part of "rejection" of Islam from the Islamic perspective. Basically, in a nut shell. A person is so "into" his own ego that he doesn't even realise/see/admit(not necessarily all three) when the truth is right in front of his face.


Ego/arrogance are things that are not taken lightly in Islam. There is so much to say on the subject(not by me).. If you want to learn about Islam I suggest joining an actual class.. Try your best to leave any ego at the door as such things can often hinder our ability to see things as they are.

when you talk about arrogance i fail to see how anyone would reject islam arrogantly, as they have nothing to gain from doing so, i can understand some people may go into denail, but these people need help not punishment, for example if somone refused to have chemotheraphy because they were in denial about having cancer, you wouldn't punish them, you would feel sorry for them in the same way a christian in denial about islam being true needs help not eternal fire.

The rabbis that were in Madinah who were awaiting the coming of a prophet rejected Muhammad (pbuh) out of arrogance. They knew that he was the
prophet but it was out of pure arrogance. They were afraid of the fact that if they accepted Islam they would lose their high status similiar to Abu Jahal and other mushrikeen who also acknowledged that Muhammad (pbuh) was not making the Quran up himself. They were afraid of losing their high status and
losing out in tribal battles.

So therefore, it is possible to deny the truth knowingly, if that is what you were asking

format_quote Originally Posted by footy_craze

The rabbis that were in Madinah who were awaiting the coming of a prophet rejected Muhammad (pbuh) out of arrogance. They knew that he was the
prophet but it was out of pure arrogance. They were afraid of the fact that if they accepted Islam they would lose their high status similiar to Abu Jahal and other mushrikeen who also acknowledged that Muhammad (pbuh) was not making the Quran up himself. They were afraid of losing their high status and
losing out in tribal battles.

So therefore, it is possible to deny the truth knowingly, if that is what you were asking

i have read about the jews who predicted a prophet from the arabs but i never read anything about what they did when they heard about mohammed, either way even we were to grant that it actually happend and these people knew he was a prophet of God and rejected him then surely they would need help not punishment? (any histroical sources of this happening would be helpful) they know they are going to suffer the worst punishment imaginable for eternity yet they do nothing, surely this would not be through 'arrogance' as these people have nothing to gain, these people need to see a physiatrist

Who is that?

i meant to write Psychiatrist

You claim folks misunderstood your Q

yes allot of people just repeated the abrahamtic philosophy of God created everything and the rules so it is a crime if you don't worship/thank him which was irrelevant to my question.

it's ok i understand the hostility, i have noticed on islamic forums anyone who questions anything a muslim says often has a few people questioning their motives and character insulted. all my posts are relevant to my original post, care to get off your high horse to provide an example where i create a new premise?

by the way it is actually quite a common critisism, and not something i "concocted" in my head. an example of a youtube video on the same subject can be found my searching "Why is Kufr a Crime?"

so tell me, why would anyone willingly choose to go to hellfire, or lets put it another way, how much would i have to pay you to set yourself on fire and burn to death?

format_quote Originally Posted by elusive

i have read about the jews who predicted a prophet from the arabs but i never read anything about what they did when they heard about mohammed, either way even we were to grant that it actually happend and these people knew he was a prophet of God and rejected him then surely they would need help not punishment? (any histroical sources of this happening would be helpful) they know they are going to suffer the worst punishment imaginable for eternity yet they do nothing, surely this would not be through 'arrogance' as these people have nothing to gain, these people need to see a physiatrist

Like I said what stopped them from accepting Islam is having to deal with losing their high rank in society, accepting defeat to a tribal battle, etc
I have a friend who was talking to his friend about Islam. His friend agreed that Islam is the truth but said I do not want to take my shahada because life would be too boring and I'd rather go to hell ignoring the fact that he is being ungrateful to his lord. Its not a psychological issue rather these types of
people follow their desires and love fulfilling them again and again even though it gets them nowhere and at the same time are content with being
ungrateful to their lord.