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Visiting a Mosque

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    Visiting a Mosque (OP)


    Greetings,

    Participating in this website has inspired me to attend a local Mosque and meet local Muslims. I have no expectation of ever being religious (any religion), but I'd like to show my support of the American Muslim community in these difficult times.

    I talked to my girlfriend about this, and she said she'd like to come with me (she's Christian). I'm sure we'll both benefit from the experience. Will provide an update after we go.

    Thanks to all on IslamicBoard who have shown your kindness, intelligence, and humanity.

    Sincerely,

    --Dan Edge

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    Re: Visiting a Mosque

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    Greetings,

    I introduced my lady to Islamic Board tonight. I had told her a lot about it, but tonight she read through this post and a bunch of other posts. She said she never realized how much Islam is like Christianity, and she commented on how kindly and welcoming all of you have been with me. And, she said she was proud of me for what I (we) are trying to do here She agrees fully that we need to stand with our Muslim brothers and sisters in the purpose of peace. It meant so much to me.

    She no longer cares about covering her head, but she asked me pointedly about what Muslims believe about woman's rights and equality. I guess we'll have to ask the iman about this. Though she could see from the posts that the ladies here are no intellectual lightweights. She saw strong women here. I agree.

    See why I want this woman forever?

    Sincerely,

    --Dan Edge
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    Re: Visiting a Mosque

    ... fyi, iman is faith and imam is the title given to the head of the congregational prayer or 'leader'.

    Last edited by greenhill; 12-12-2015 at 09:14 AM.
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    Visiting a Mosque

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    Re: Visiting a Mosque

    Greenhill,

    What's the right word then? How do I address the preacher at the Mosque? I just called him Mr. [last name] over the phone...

    --Dan Edge
    Last edited by DanEdge; 12-12-2015 at 09:32 AM.
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    Re: Visiting a Mosque

    It's fine to call him by name. There's no need to him by any title.

    Just thought I'd differentiate for you the meaning of iman and imam.

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    Re: Visiting a Mosque



    In-sha-Allah (God-willing) you and she feel happier for having been to the mosque.

    Well, as a woman, I am so happy to be a Muslim woman. For example, many may not know this but women were excelling in religious and scholarly fields far before women were even though of as any kind of intellectual counterparts to men in the rest of the world. There's an online book available on this subject matter: Achievements of Women in the Religious and Scholarly Fields. Also, during the Caliphate of Umar r.a. (may Allah be pleased with him), in Medina, we have the first market inspector (muhtashib), a woman from among the Ansar, whose duty was to walk through the marketplace and ensuring that all dealings were done fairly. There were women on the battlefield in the time of Prophet Muhammad sallalahu alayhi wasallam (peace and blessings be upon him), and one that particularly comes to mind is Nasiba r.a. (may Allah be pleased with her) during the battle of Uhud when she defended Prophet sallalahu alayhi wasallam (peace and blessings be upon him) like a lioness and earned a deep wound in her shoulder that bled intermittently for one year.

    So, tell Kat that Islam is a religion that affords equitable treatment to women, and honors women; I certainly feel afforded both.

    format_quote Originally Posted by DanEdge View Post
    Greetings,

    I introduced my lady to Islamic Board tonight. I had told her a lot about it, but tonight she read through this post and a bunch of other posts. She said she never realized how much Islam is like Christianity, and she commented on how kindly and welcoming all of you have been with me. And, she said she was proud of me for what I (we) are trying to do here She agrees fully that we need to stand with our Muslim brothers and sisters in the purpose of peace. It meant so much to me.

    She no longer cares about covering her head, but she asked me pointedly about what Muslims believe about woman's rights and equality. I guess we'll have to ask the iman about this. Though she could see from the posts that the ladies here are no intellectual lightweights. She saw strong women here. I agree.

    See why I want this woman forever?

    Sincerely,

    --Dan Edge
    Last edited by Insaanah; 12-12-2015 at 02:52 PM. Reason: removed non-serious or personal parts
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    Re: Visiting a Mosque

    format_quote Originally Posted by DanEdge View Post
    she asked me pointedly about what Muslims believe about woman's rights and equality.
    Firstly, welcome, greetings and warm wishes to your friend. It is nice that you have introduced her to this thread.

    Now, as to the issue of women's rights, I guess first we have to define what equality is, what rights are, as they can mean different things to different people. Most people, will be conditioned by the societies, cultures, environments they live in, and the information they have been exposed to, as to what their views are on this. Many countries and societies, currently perceive themselves to be the pinnacles of championing and having achieved equal rights for women, and therefore think of themselves as the pinnacles of civilisation.

    I guess in non-Muslim societies, or Western societies, a woman has to have exactly the same rights as a man, in order to have made it. I'll try and give just a few bits of info, and perhaps impart another way of looking at things.

    In the Qur'an we have some chapters named after prophets. Those chapters are, Jonah, Joseph, (Hud - not mentioned in the Bible I think), Abraham, Noah, and Muhammad (peace on them all). Apart from that, we have a chapter, called Mary. An entire chapter of the Qur'an, named after the esteemed and noble mother of Jesus (peace be on them both), one of the best women to ever set foot on the face of this earth. Even apart from that, we have a chapter called Women. An entire chapter, called women. That in itself, even if nothing else was said, should say something about the position of women in Islam. I am not sure if any other religious book can say that.

    According to the Holy Qur'an, men and women have the same human spiritual nature:

    O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women... (Quran, 4:1)

    God has invested both genders with inherent dignity and has made men and women, collectively, the trustees of God on earth.

    The Qur'an does not blame woman for the “fall of man,” nor does it view pregnancy and childbirth as punishments for “eating from the forbidden tree.” On the contrary, the Qur'an depicts Adam and Eve (peace be on them both) as equally responsible for eating from the tree, never singling out Eve for blame. Both repented, and both were forgiven (see the Qur'an 2:36-37 and 7:19-27). The Qur'an also esteems pregnancy and childbirth as sufficient reasons for the love and respect due to mothers from their children (Qur'an 31:14 and 46:15).

    Men and women have the same religious and moral duties and responsibilities. Each human being shall face the consequences of his or her deeds:

    And their Lord responded to them (saying): Never will I allow to be lost the work of (any) worker among you, whether male or female; you are of one another... (Qur'an, 3:195),

    And whoever does righteous deeds, whether male or female, while being a believer - those will enter Paradise and will not be wronged, [even as much as] the speck on a date seed. (4:124)

    On the Day you see the believing men and believing women, their light proceeding before them and on their right, [it will be said], "Your good tidings today are [of] gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein you will abide eternally." That is what is the great attainment. (57:12)

    See 33:35 in particular. It could have been much shorter if men and women were addressed collectively as believers, but look, Allah in every instance of deeds makes a point of mentioning both men and women:

    Indeed, the Muslim men and Muslim women, the believing men and believing women, the obedient men and obedient women, the truthful men and truthful women, the patient men and patient women, the humble men and humble women, the charitable men and charitable women, the fasting men and fasting women, the men who guard their private parts and the women who do so, and the men who remember Allah often and the women who do so - for them Allah has prepared forgiveness and a great reward.

    The Qur'an is quite clear about the issue of the claimed superiority or inferiority of any human, male or female. The sole basis for superiority of any person over another is piety and righteousness - not gender, colour, or nationality:

    O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female, and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted. (Qur'an 49:13)

    Another point to note, is that the wives of the Prophet Muhammad (peace, blessings, salutations of God be on him, and may God be pleased with them) never took his name on marriage, despite being married to the best man on earth, and neither did the other Muslim women take their husband's name. So his wife Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her), was never known as nor ever called herself, Aisha Muhammad. She was always known, when referred to by her name, as Aisha bint Abi Bakr (Aisha daughter of Abu Bakr). Khadija (may Allah be pleased with her), the first lady the Prophet married, was never known as Khadija Muhammad, but Khadija bint Khuwailid (Khadija, daughter of Khuwailid). The man you happened to be married to never came into it. You were always known as your father's daughter.

    From what I have read, it seems that taking the husbands name as surname might have originated with the slave trade in some parts of the world, where slaves had to take their masters/owners surname, as you see among the Palmers and Williams among Afro Caribbeans. It indicated that the slave belonged to that master and was his property. They were deprived of their identity.

    Referring to the 14th century Europe, England in particular:

    Married women, however, were perceived to have no surname at all, since the Normans had also brought with them the doctrine of coverture, the legal principle that, upon marriage, a woman became her husband's possession. Her state of namelessness reflected this. In the words of one court in 1340, "when a woman took a husband, she lost every surname except 'wife of'".
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29804450

    Later on, this reasoning was changed on it's head because it didn't sound good, so then it was said that it was done to promote unity among the husband and wife, to show they are one.

    In the 20th century, Western women such as Jane Grant were fighting for the most basic of rights, the right to keep their own names on marriage:

    In 1921 Grant, along with Ruth Hale, founded the Lucy Stone League, which was dedicated, in the manner of Lucy Stone, to helping women keep their maiden names after marriage...
    ...with legal cases, mass meetings, signing into hotels openly, and going to Washington, D.C
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Grant
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maiden_and_married_names

    Muslim women were exercising this right from the 7th century. Nowadays, some western women choose to not take the name of the husbands family and choose to retain their own, as a symbol of modernity, or feminism or independence.

    Continuing from the above bbc source (now referring to 15th century):

    However, if there was one person in a marriage, that person was the husband. Married women still could not hold property, vote, or go to law. Legally, at the point of marriage they ceased to exist.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29804450

    Muslim women were given both entitlements and protection, and recognised as independent legal entities in their own right, over 1400 years ago, in the 7th century. Islam bestowed on them, the right to own their own property, and to dispose of it as they please, without anyone's permission. They had the right to give their consent to a marriage, or not. They had the right to go to court and obtain a dissolution of their marriage, if that became necessary. They were entitled to full financial support from their fathers, then husbands after marriage. They were guaranteed inheritance from close deceased relatives. They had the right to earn and keep their own money, provided that employment did not contravene Islamic guidelines. Muslim women and scholars were key in teaching and preserving Islam for the next generations. These are just a few things quickly for now.

    Another point, is that while women in what I will loosely but perhaps incorrectly term "the west" just for convenience's sake, feel they have achieved equality and women's rights, have they really? What if there was another view, that turned everything on it's head? What if, those "rights" and that "equality", was borne out of an inferiority complex to begin with? What if, women in the west, felt they had no worth compared to men? And thus started this fight for "rights" which they feel they have now achieved? And on the other side of the coin, what if some women in the world, might view women in the west with pity, due to them having felt, and perhaps still feeling below par compared to men?

    The following piece, by a Muslim woman, adapted and shortened from its original full text, is worth a read:

    What we so often forget, is that God has honored the woman by giving her value in relation to God, not in relation to men. But as western feminism erases God from the scene, there are no standard left but men. As a result the western feminist is forced to find her value in relation to a man. And in so doing she has accepted a faulty assumption. She has accepted that man is the standard, and thus a woman can never be a full human being until she becomes just like a man - the standard.

    When a man cut his hair short, she wanted to cut her hair short. When a man joined the army, she wanted to join the army. She wanted these things for no other reason than because the 'standard' had it. What she didn't recognize was that God dignifies both men and women in their distinctiveness - not their sameness.

    On the other hand, only a woman can be a mother. And God has given special privilege to a mother. The Prophet taught us that heaven lies at the feet of mothers. But no matter what a man does he can never be a mother. So why is that not unfair?

    When asked who is most deserving of our kind treatment? The Prophet (peace and blessings be on him) replied 'your mother' three times before saying 'your father' only once. Is that sexist? No matter what a man does he will never be able to have the status of a mother.

    And yet even when God honors us with something uniquely feminine, we are too busy trying to find our worth in reference to men, to value it - or even notice. We too have accepted men as the standard; so anything uniquely feminine is, by definition, inferior. Being sensitive is an insult, becoming a mother - a degradation.

    In the battle between stoic rationality (considered masculine) and self-less compassion (considered feminine), rationality reigns supreme.

    As soon as we accept that everything a man has and does is better, all that follows is just a knee jerk reaction: if men have it - we want it too.

    A Muslim woman does not need to degrade herself in this way. She has God as a standard. She has God to give her value; she doesn't need a man.

    In fact, in our crusade to follow men, we, as women, never even stopped to examine the possibility that what we have is better for us. In some cases we even gave up what was higher only to be like men.

    Fifty years ago, society told us that men were superior because they left the home to work in factories. We were mothers. And yet, we were told that it was women's liberation to abandon the raising of another human being in order to work on a machine. We accepted that working in a factory was superior to raising the Foundation of society - just because a man did it.

    Then after working, we were expected to be superhuman - the perfect mother, the perfect wife, the perfect homemaker - and have the perfect career. And while there is nothing wrong, by definition, with a woman having a career, we soon came to realize what we had sacrificed by blindly mimicking men. We watched as our children became strangers and soon recognized the privilege we'd given up.

    And so only now-given the choice-women in the West are choosing to stay home to raise their children.

    It took women in the West almost a century of experimentation to realize a privilege given to Muslim women 1400 years ago.

    Given my privilege as a woman, I only degrade myself by trying to be something I'm not - and in all honesty - don't want to be: a man. As women, we will never reach true liberation until we stop trying to mimic men, and value the beauty in our own God-given distinctiveness.

    If given a choice between stoic justice and compassion, I choose compassion. And if given a choice between worldly leadership and heaven at my feet - I choose Heaven.
    Some Muslim women who live in Western societies unfortunately feel apologetic about women's rights in Islam, because they view women's rights purely through how the media and society at large has portrayed them, and will say, I'm a Muslim woman, but it's ok, I'm a feminist! Or will incorrectly claim that our religion is feminist. Feminism is seen as liberation, independence, the ideal, the standard, something to aspire to. If the West has feminism, we must have it too, and are lacking without it. But it is borne out of that inferiority complex. And it stands for a skewing of things to a woman's position. Islam stands for balance, for justice. Thus there is no need for feminism in Islam nor is it something we aspire to. God gave us worth, entitlements and protection over 1400 years ago.

    Men and women are not created the same. We have different but complementary temperaments, strengths and roles. We need to recognise and embrace and celebrate those.

    There is more that can be said but I'll stop there for now. Don't know if that helps a little or has digressed, but I'll post it for now anyway.

    Please do ask for any clarifications as required.

    Peace.
    Last edited by Insaanah; 12-12-2015 at 06:31 PM.
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    Visiting a Mosque


    Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa
    Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").


    This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)


    Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)
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    Re: Visiting a Mosque

    format_quote Originally Posted by DanEdge View Post
    ... she asked me pointedly about what Muslims believe about woman's rights and equality.,,



    Hi ,

    i find this article very useful for her .


    Women In Islam Versus Women In The Judaeo-Christian Tradition: The Myth & The Reality


    See also: http://protectedpearl.webs.com/women....htm#589210901
    Last edited by Insaanah; 12-12-2015 at 05:44 PM.
    Visiting a Mosque

    Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172

    recitation:http://quran.jalisi.com
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    Re: Visiting a Mosque

    Ma'am (Muslim Woman),

    I greatly appreciate your thoughtful response. I'll have to read it a few more times, then may have a few questions in a new thread.

    On reflection, I think woman's rights is too political a view to inquire about in our first meeting. We should keep it simple and positive.

    --Dan Edge
    Last edited by DanEdge; 12-13-2015 at 06:33 AM. Reason: word optimization
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    Re: Visiting a Mosque

    For those who pray:

    Please keep our local Greenville imam in your thoughts. His wife lost her uncle this week.

    Unfortunately due to this sad circumstance, I won't be able to meet the imam during this visit. Instead, it will be my pleasure to meet with his son and daughter-in-law. Looking forward to an enlightening cultural experience tomorrow.

    Sincerely,

    --Dan Edge
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    Re: Visiting a Mosque

    Greetings,

    Wasn't able to visit the Mosque toady, unfortunately. My girlfriend's bronchitis got worse, so we spent the afternoon at the doctor. I spoke to imam, and said I was all good, we can come visit next week when he's back in town.

    --Dan Edge
    Last edited by DanEdge; 12-14-2015 at 12:39 AM. Reason: spelling
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    Re: Visiting a Mosque

    Bookmarked this is so awesome Dan Edge !!!

    Scimi
    Visiting a Mosque

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    Re: Visiting a Mosque

    format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb View Post
    I am not sure about other churches but in my country Greek-Catholic women do cover their head when they go to the church and take part in the worship service. So, covering the head is not a thing what only Muslim women do.
    Don't Russian women do that too?
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    Re: Visiting a Mosque



    format_quote Originally Posted by DanEdge View Post
    Greetings,

    Wasn't able to visit the Mosque toady, unfortunately. My girlfriend's bronchitis got worse, so we spent the afternoon at the doctor. I spoke to imam, and said I was all good, we can come visit next week when he's back in town.

    --Dan Edge
    Hey, sorry to hear that. Hopefully, Kat feels better soon In-sha-Allah (God-willing).

    Next week sounds just as awesome to me; plus, sometimes, we make plans, but only that happens which is God's will. So, In-sha-Allah (God-willing), all is good.

    Wishing you and Kat well for your journey and a God-willing awesomely speedy recover for her,
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    Re: Visiting a Mosque

    Greetings All,

    I'm happy to report that we finally got to visit a Mosque for the first time yesterday. It was a very friendly and educational visit, and I like to think that we made some new friends.

    First, my girlfriend and I met with the Imam, his son, and his daughter-in-law. The young lady was the leader of the talk, with the aid of a Powerpoint presentation and additional comments from the Imam. Even though I'd studied Islam a bit to prepare, I learned a lot in that short, 1-hour presentation.

    Her first question for us was: Who was the first Muslim? Me and my lady both guessed Muhammad, but we were wrong! She explained that Adam was the first Muslim because he was the first to praise the one God and deliver his message. All the other prophets, from Adam to Muhammad, preached the same message, she explained. All those who worship only the one God, and follow the instructions of his prophets, are considered Muslims. Those who follow the instructions of previous prophets but do not acknowledge newer ones are People of the Book. God still loves them, but they do not see the full truth.

    Kat was surprised at the parallels between Islam and Christianity. She was silent for most of the discussion, but she spoke up in response to the Imam's discussion of Jesus. The Imam said that Jesus's words were considered to be part of Islam, but that St. Pauls additions were not. She commented that she always found truth in the words of Jesus, but Paul's letters were not to her liking.

    Our Q+A session was cut short because it was time for the evening prayer. The Imam left us to make the call to prayer, and we had a few more minutes to talk to his son and daughter-in-law. Then we were allowed to come into the main room and witness the prayer. It was explained that there would be a standard prayer x 3, then another Surah from the Imam of his choosing. After the standard prayer, all the participants went off on their own, praying in their own way. They would move to different parts of the room, speak or be silent, genuflect or not, as they chose.

    After the prayer, our hosts had to leave (after giving us copies of the Qu'aran for free), but two other Muslims asked us to stay for tea. They made us hot tea and we sat down and chatted for a while. One of them was American, the other Egyptian. Both were very welcoming and thanked us for coming. I told the Egyptian that I had been trying to expose myself to Islam to help change my prejudiced feelings about them. He said he'd tried to do the same thing with Jews (with less success than I've had).

    We were invited to come back any time, but especially later this month for their "Meet Your Neighbors" event. I remembered to ask if they had any events with Middle Eastern food, and the Imam said "Oh, yes!" So, come the end of this month, we will be returning to meet and eat and make more friends.

    We both had a great time, and we look forward to going back. Thanks to all of you on IB who have made me feel welcome and have encouraged me on this journey of cultural enlightenment.

    To the Best Within Us,

    --Dan Edge
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  20. #35
    greenhill's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Visiting a Mosque

    Glad you liked it. Interesting point about Jesus and Paul...

    All the best for the next one at the end of the month.

    Visiting a Mosque

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    For when my heart does stop its beat, with truth, I die.
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    Re: Visiting a Mosque

    Good decision, Dan Edge. I am glad you decided to be open-minded and learn more about Islam and Muslims. Most Muslims are very nice and warm and friendly. We can't let a few bad ones ruin our image. You might also go to Islamic Centers and Meetups in your area. Local colleges and universities often have Islamic Centers if they have a number of Muslim students. They are usually open to the general public and often do iftar/breaking of fast and dinner and extended prayers in Ramadan. Also, Islam is not about just being "religious" and following rules--It's about feeling the faith/iman in one's spirit. Therefore, it's also about being spiritual. The best Muslims have mastered both. So keep an open mind. You have a purpose. You just have to discover it and embrace it. It's becoming more common among Westerners to say they are"not religious " and leave it at that. What I am saying is that there is more to your existence and you should never close yourself to Truth and experience.
    There are some books about Islam and science. I will post the names later. There is also a book and site that discusses scientific verses in the Quran: A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam.
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    Re: Visiting a Mosque

    beautiful words
    Visiting a Mosque

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  23. #38
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    Re: Visiting a Mosque

    Dan, did you go back for the meet the neighbours event?

    Sounds like a very productive mosque, any chance sending us a link if they have a website so we can get some hints and tips?
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