Last week was "Islam Awareness Week" at the university. I went to a seminar, which was about New Zealand converts to Islam. The main reason I went was because one of my friends was there, and she had converted to Islam over a year ago. I had considered Islam before she converted, and I went to the local Mosque a few times, and even learned how to pray in Arabic. However, I then discovered Jesus Christ and the Christian faith. I was baptized in the Roman Catholic Church, and later I found the Eastern Orthodox Church, where I am now. I had read critical attacks on Islam from sites like --- and --- and I believed them.
However, at Islam Awareness Week, I talked to Muslims on campus, and I asked them about several of these issues. They told me to be sure I got my information from the right sources. On Sunday, there was a general forum where a sheikh from Wellington came to answer questions. I asked him about some of the things I was concerned about, mainly the violent verses in the 9th surah of the Qur'an. He said that those were referring to wartime, not killing innocent people in peacetime.
So, my dilemma is this: I feel drawn to Islam, but I'm not sure about it. I really like the prayer, and the modest dress for women. However, my girlfriend (we intend to get married) is an Orthodox Christian, and she told me that under no circumstances will she convert to Islam. I love her with all my heart and I wouldn't do anything that would destroy our relationship. I couldn't love anyone else but her. I'm really confused at the moment.
Last edited by Muhammad; 08-21-2007 at 09:52 AM.
Reason: Sorry - anti-islamic links are not allowed.
Senior Muslim members will help you out soon. Anyways, Muslim men are allowed to marry chaste Christian and Jew women without them having to convert first. Ya, there are some rules and regulation to follow though. I read them earlier at another website but can't recall all of em.
One of em is that: Your children should be raised as Muslims.
Looks to me like you are a God-seeker! You are on a spiritual journey, and you have dipped into different Christian denominations over the last year. But you are still unsure - have you found the true path or are you still searching?
I cannot give you any answers. Neither will I make an argument for Christianity - after all this is an Islamic forum, and I guess you are here for a reason ...
My advice to you is this:
This is not about what other people think - not even your girlfriend.
This is not about what other people wear or how they pray. This is about where you stand with God, and what he is saying to you!
To hear God's directions to you, you need to spend time in peace and quiet and pray, pray, pray.
Once you know God's will for you, either whatever attracts you to Islam will pale into insignificance, or your girlfriend's wishes will become secondary.
Once you know God's will for you, you'd do well to obey him.
Be patient, be faithful, and trust in God!
May God bless you and guide you on your journey.
Peace
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
Mashallah its really good that your considering Islam...but unfortunately as you said your girlfriend is Orthodox Christian. Maybe you should explain Islam to her and maybe if she has any questions you could post them here and Inshallah (God Willing) someone will be able to help answer them.
If that fails then i don't think you should stop yourself from thinking about islam and as a last resort i think Islamically it is allowed for men to marry christian women but not vice versa
Btw how does she feel about just you converting and not her? would that put your relationship in jeopardy too?
May Allah swt continue to guide you and ease your problems..Ammen
Welcome to the forum! This is just about the only place online that I am not rahma
If you have questions about specific things on those sites, I believe you can just summarize the arguments, but not link to them. This forum likes to preserve harmony and a positive atmosphere.
Im happy to hear that you are considering reverting to Islam. As for your situation, the best thing that you can do for your girlfriend is to teach her about Islam. Im guessing she doesn't want to convert because she has somehow related Islam to violence due to misunderstanding (what most non-believers think). If you can show her what Islam is really all about then, Inshallah, she will be drawn to it.
Tell her about who Allah is. How He is the Creater and the All Powerful, and none can be worshipped except Him. Next, explain to her purpose of His messengers: they were chosen by Allah spread the message about the right way to live and to worship Allah. Explain the significance of Muhammad (pbuh) as the last messenger and the Quran as the final revelation for MANKIND, not arabs only. Also explain to her about the Hereafter. How on Judgement Day everyone will be raised up from the dead and will have to answer Allah for all the deeds they have done in this world. How the ones who worshipped Allah and lived a kind, righteous life will go to heaven and the rejecters, who rejected Allah as One aswell as his messenger, and lived a life of greed and sin will go to Hell.
The best way for all non-believers to find Islam is through an open mind and most importantly, KNOWLEDGE!
If you have any more questions I urge you to post back here. The kind brothers and sisters on this board will be happy to help. I pray to Allah that your girlfriend will find the truth.
Hey Michael, welcome to LI firstly and congrats to u for looking into Islam .
Well the most I can say to you is that one should always put their trust in Allah. When you sacrifice something for His sake, he blesses you with something better in return or who knows, maybe your girlfriend will even consider Islam InshaAllah(God Willing). You have to really think about it, who do you love more? Allah is your provider, your sustainer and will always help you. You just need to trust in Him. And if your girlfriend really cares about, she'll consider at least looking into it. You shouldnt rush her into anything but rather slowly help her to understand Islam. Be an example to her and show her what it means to be a Muslim. I hope everything works for u, InshaAllah(God-Willing).
Peace
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
peace Micheal
I read what you wrote, and I think confusion is natural when you are on the path of discovery... unfortunately though you may find many companions to guide you along the way, the path of virtue is in fact a solitary retreat...
The only thing that I can advise is to learn as much as you can, and that is certainly true for anything in your life that should hold such a measure of permanence and this life altering..
Also.. I'd not center my beliefs on how I am being perceived by a loved one.. true love is accepting, kind, eternal and wouldn't hurt you for not wanting to go against forces that drive you...perhaps the fruits of your quest will be a beacon and an arousing inspiration for your girl friend to see what beauty lies therein Islam thus having hopefully a positive impact on her...
When I am inundated with thoughts, I try to take it one minute at a time, then one hour at a time, then one day at a time and so on.. remember that old adage (time is there so that life doesn't happen all at once) certainly rings true and is a measure of console that, though this moment is a bit overwhelming, the next one might be better and the one after that is even better and more enlightening... Just make your intentions true to God, that you wish to seek him and ask him to guide you on the path of the righteous
Ameen
peace!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
“O My slaves, all of you are astray except those whom I guide, so ask Me for guidance, and I will guide you. O My slaves, all of you are hungry except those whom I feed, so ask me for food and I will feed you. O My slaves, all of you are naked except those whom I clothe, so ask Me for clothing and I will clothe you. … O My slaves, if the first of you and the last of you, your humans and your jinn, were to stand on a single plain and ask of Me and I were to give each one what he asked for, that would not cause any loss to Me greater than what is lost when a needle is dipped into the sea.”
Narrated by Muslim (2577).
If you're in a state of confusion right now, ask God/Allah to guide you to what is loved by Him. Pray to Him to guide you, and those who you love to the path which is beloved to Him. Since it is He who guides the hearts, and it's He who truly understands all that we are going through. This should be your main objective right now.
You can check this link to get abit more basic info on Islam;
In regard to you being in love, i think one of the best things you can do right now is place the affairs in the Hands of Allah/God. It is permissible in Islam for a Muslim male to get married to a chaste Christian or Jewish woman, but a Muslim is not permitted to take girlfriends or boyfriends since this opens the doors to other evils such as illicit intercourse, children born out of wedlock, which can usually cause a great deal of friction between people, aswell as cause confusion and hardship among the members of society.
So right now, the best thing for you to do is to pray to God/Allah sincerely to guide you and the ones you love to what is beloved to Him, and at a practical level - it would be great if you could meet up or get in contact with the people who you met in the Islam Awareness Week, and i'm sure that God willing they will be able to help you in regard to what you should do in your situation.
On the issue of marriage with an Ahle-Kitab [People of the book(Bible)], yes it is lawful for a muslim man to marry a Christian woman. At the same time, the Qur'an in no un-certain terms prohibits marrying Mushriks [Polytheists, idolators];
Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise. [Al-Qur'an 2:221]
Now brother Michael, you have described the non-muslim sister as an Orthodox Christian which probably implies that she is a Trinitarian and believes Jesus[p] to be GOD or as having similar attributes. Thus she would fall into the category of Mushrikeen, those who share other deities with GOD.
Bro you've also said that she under no circumstances will she convert to Islam. But if she really loves you then whats the problem in accepting Islam for your sake, should she not also be as willing as you?
Why does she not accept Islam? You've pointed to the Hijab and perhaps she dis-likes wearing it. But that should'nt stop her entry into Islam since Hijab falls into the category of Taqwa [virtuousness, righteous deeds] and it has nothing to do with the basic fundamentals of faith in Islam. If you feel the Hijab is a stumbling block towards her entering into Islam then its your duty to remove it. Indeed wearing the Hijab is compulsory upon all woman and its neglection is sin but its nothing compared to Shirk, sharing other deities with Allah[s]. Insha'allah after reverting to Islam she will abandon her non-Islamic activities and discover the beauty of Hijab.
But the most probable reason i think for her refusal to accept Islam is her commitment to the Orthodox Christian faith. In this case, my advise is that you show her what Orthodox Christianity is. What is orthodox Christianity today need not be the orthodoxy of Jesus'[p] early followers. Infact, it took took approximately four centuries to assimilate what we know today as the standardized Christian concepts of the Trinity and a divine Jesus[p].
The New Catholic Encyclopedia;
There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma 'One God in three persons' became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought…it was the product of three centuries of doctrinal development.
[The New Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume 14, p.295]
Lastly brother Michael, should you not be more loyal to Allah[s] who gave you life in the first place? If she turns away from Islam, would you then turn away from your LORD? Remember that this life is a is nothing more than a test for those who believe and put their trust in Allah[s], who says;
...it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.
[Al-Qur'an 2:216]
On the issue of marriage with an Ahle-Kitab [People of the book(Bible)], yes it is lawful for a muslim man to marry a Christian woman. At the same time, the Qur'an in no un-certain terms prohibits marrying Mushriks [Polytheists, idolators];
Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise. [Al-Qur'an 2:221]
Now brother Michael, you have described the non-muslim sister as an Orthodox Christian which probably implies that she is a Trinitarian and believes Jesus[p] to be GOD or as having similar attributes. Thus she would fall into the category of Mushrikeen, those who share other deities with GOD.
Bro you've also said that she under no circumstances will she convert to Islam. But if she really loves you then whats the problem in accepting Islam for your sake, should she not also be as willing as you?
Why does she not accept Islam? You've pointed to the Hijab and perhaps she dis-likes wearing it. But that should'nt stop her entry into Islam since Hijab falls into the category of Taqwa [virtuousness, righteous deeds] and it has nothing to do with the basic fundamentals of faith in Islam. If you feel the Hijab is a stumbling block towards her entering into Islam then its your duty to remove it. Indeed wearing the Hijab is compulsory upon all woman and its neglection is sin but its nothing compared to Shirk, sharing other deities with Allah[s]. Insha'allah after reverting to Islam she will abandon her non-Islamic activities and discover the beauty of Hijab.
But the most probable reason i think for her refusal to accept Islam is her commitment to the Orthodox Christian faith. In this case, my advise is that you show her what Orthodox Christianity is. What is orthodox Christianity today need not be the orthodoxy of Jesus'[p] early followers. Infact, it took took approximately four centuries to assimilate what we know today as the standardized Christian concepts of the Trinity and a divine Jesus[p].
The New Catholic Encyclopedia;
There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma 'One God in three persons' became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought…it was the product of three centuries of doctrinal development.
[The New Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume 14, p.295]
Lastly brother Michael, should you not be more loyal to Allah[s] who gave you life in the first place? If she turns away from Islam, would you then turn away from your LORD? Remember that this life is a is nothing more than a test for those who believe and put their trust in Allah[s], who says;
...it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.
[Al-Qur'an 2:216]
Peace onto you!
i disagree with you, the brother is more than free to marry the Christian because although they are mushriks they have still been given the title of ahlul kitab and have been distinguised from other non believers. the Quran does allow Muslims to marry Christians and Jews:
“Made lawful to you this day are . . . chaste women from those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) before your time . . .” [al-Maa’idah 5:5].
the verse you quoted from surah baqarah excludes the Christians and Jews....
here is a fatwa from a sheikh:
With regard to the ruling on marrying kaafir woman, it is haraam, unless she is from the people of the Book – Jewish or Christian. A Muslim may think that every woman who lives in America or Europe is a Christian, or that if she lives with the Jews then she is Jewish, but this is wrong. Just as there are those who are Muslim in name but are in fact secular or communist, that also happens with them too, and on a greater scale – there are many who are of the religion of their country in name, without that having any reflection in reality. Hence the one who wants to marry a non-Muslim woman must ascertain that the conditions for that are met in the woman. They are:
1. She should be of the people of the Book – Jewish or Christian – even if she adheres to her deviant religion, because these are the ones whose woman Allaah has permitted us to marry. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“The food (slaughtered cattle, eatable animals) of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) is lawful to you and yours is lawful to them. (Lawful to you in marriage) are chaste women from the believers and chaste women from those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) before your time when you have given their due Mahr (bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), desiring chastity (i.e. taking them in legal wedlock) not committing illegal sexual intercourse, nor taking them as girlfriends”
[al-Maa'idah 5:5]
As for atheist, Buddhist and Magian (Zoroastrian) women, it is not permissible to marry them. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And do not marry Al-Mushrikaat (idolatresses) till they believe (worship Allaah Alone). And indeed a slave woman who believes is better than a (free) Mushrikah (idolatress), even though she pleases you”
[al-Baqarah 2:221]
2. She should be chaste, not engaging in zina (fornication) or having boyfriends, because Allaah says in the verse from al-Maa'idah quoted above: “chaste women.”
3. The Muslim should be in charge. So it should not be stipulated that they get married in the church, or that the children should follow her religion, or anything else in which she and her religion are given precedence at the expense of his religion. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
When I say she is an Orthodox Christian, that means that she is preparing to be baptized in the Eastern Orthodox Church, the first Church of Christ that existed before all the other denominations (Catholic, Anglican, Baptist, Pentecostal, etc) came into existence. The Orthodox Church has laid down strict rules with regard to marriage: An Orthodox Christian cannot marry a non-Orthodox Christian. That is where the problem lies.
I was telling her yesterday about the Qur'an and the mathematical miracles in it, and she seemed to be quite receptive of it. However, she thought that the Qur'an could have been demonic instead of being from God.
She is an Orthodox Christian meaning she is preparing for baptism in the Eastern Orthodox Church (the earliest church). The Orthodox Church has forbidden any marriage between Orthodox and non-Orthodox. That is why she said that our relationship must end.
Her commitment to the Orthodox Christian faith is what is keeping her from accepting Islam. She hasn't read the Bible, however she is reading the Philokalia (a collection of writings from early Christian saints), which is a classic of Orthodox Christian spirituality. Before she started reading the Philokalia, she didn't seem that enthusiastic about Orthodoxy, but this book has changed her.
I know I should be more loyal to God than my girlfriend, but her and I are planning to get married. I love her with all my heart, and I don't think that I could be without her or love anyone else. The couple of times we've had arguments and almost broken up, the feeling that I've felt is so horrible I can't even describe it. Plus I love her and care for her. She has been treated really badly by her family, who have mentally and emotionally abused her. I really care about her, and I'm the only person she really feels close to. If we broke up, she would have nobody. I don't think I could go through with this.
I mean by saying "Orthodox Christian" that she is preparing for baptism in the Eastern Orthodox Church, the first Christian Church founded by Christ's Apostles.
The Orthodox Church has forbidden marriage between Orthodox Christians and non-Orthodox. That is why she has said our relationship would have to end.
I know I should be more loyal to God, however, I love my girlfriend with all my heart and losing her would totally destroy my life. The two times that we almost broke up made me feel so upset and depressed that I don't think I could deal with it. Plus, her family haven't treated her very nicely, and I'm the only one she trusts and is really close to. I'm not going to leave her, as then she would have no-one.
Why would a demonic book be telling her to worship God? it would seem a little self-defeating.. unfortunately that was one of the ploys of the church, when they couldn't explain the Quran, they deemed it from the devil.. anyhow perhaps you might want to forward this book to her, it is by a former priest, a quick read.. he dedicated 20 years of his life to fighting against Islam but he wanted to do it the proper way by correctly studying it, so as to be able to write the best rebuttal, he ended up converting instead!
the amazing Quran By Dr. Gary Miller http://thetruereligion.org/modules/w...p?articleid=90
peace!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Like to begin with commenting on PurestAmbrosia's point that a Shaitan[Devil,Demon etc] would not inspire a book like the Qur'an which describes it as: ...an avowed enemy! [Al-Qur'an 12:5] Allah[s] further says that: Satan makes them[humans] promises, and creates in them false desires; but satan's promises are nothing but deception. [Al-Qur'an 4:120] Let not the Evil One hinder you: for he is to you an enemy avowed. [Al-Qur'an 43:62]
The sister's un-reasonable conclusion reminds me of an instance in the Bible where Prophet Jesus[p] was accused by the Pharisees of casting out devils with the prince of devils. Jesus'[p] answer was supreme: And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? [Mr 12:26]
Coming back to our main concern, brother Michael, you've seemingly put yourself in precarious situation. You want to be a muslim but wish to marry a non-muslim girl who obviously isn't as willing as you. Furthermore, her denomination does not allow her to marry out-side her religious class and you can't live without her. Faced with such difficulties and a consequent head-ache, my friend what on earth am i suppose to do in order to help you?
Its good Alhamdulillah that you are willing to become a muslim but un-aware of what Islam truely means. The word itself comes from silm [submission] applies submission to GOD's Will. A muslim is one who submits in total obedience to Allah, worships, loves, adores and glorifies no one as Him alone. As it seems, you're leaning to the opposite direction, your love for a created being has over-taken the Love for GOD, something to which you must put a halt at once. Your Allah[s] says: Seest thou such a one as taketh for his god his own passion (or impulse)?... [Al-Qur'an 25:43] It is a necessity that you do not allow anything or anyone to come between you and your LORD, this is our priority.
I would like some clarification on a point which leaves me perplexed. You've said that the sister hasn't even read the Bible, instead relies upon a forth/fifth century document known as the Philokalia. Now how is person suppose to be an orthodox Christian or even an orthodox muslim for that matter if he or she hasn't even read the Bible or the Qur'an? It seems astonishing to me that she bases her belief in Jesus[p] upon a literature writen in the forth century by people who themselves were probably Trinitarian believers, and not refering to the orignal and a far more authentic source on Jesus'[p] life, ministry and his teachings i.e. the Bible.
With the limited options we have remaining, it would be advised that you marry the sister as a Christian and afterwads, if Allah so wills, you may truely open your heart for Islam, start practicing its basic and simple fundamentals and convey the message to your spouse. Even if she doesn't will to leave her faith and religion, i think what we can expect from her and the least she can do for you is allow you to practice your's. And as we've read above, it is law-ful for a muslim man to marry an Ahle Kitab [People of Bible], woman.
By the way, i won't debate the Fatwah of your anonymous Sheikh brother Prince, not that i agree.
I am very empathetic to the dilemman on the horns of which you find yourself. I think that the right answer will come to you if you follow Glo's advice and "pray, pray, pray", sincerely, with devotion, and an open mind and heart. Sometimes prayer is regarded as talking to God, but it is really communication with God. LISTENING TO GOD, not to other people, will give you the answer.
[QUOTE=Michael;817926]
And Idol worshipers are people who adore statues or idols made with human hands, like the Hindus do. The Bhagavata Purana states that the divine can incarnate in any of eight material elements: stone, wood, metal, earth, paint, sand, jewels or the mind. The Hindu idols are worshipped as the very gods themselves. That is idol worship.
One more thing, Michael, you are not doing yourself any favours by maligning people of other religions about which you know very little. I suggest that you keep on topic.
HINDUS DO NOT WORSHIP IDOLS AS GOD OR "THE VERY GODS THEMSELVES"
Perhaps we can discuss this on the comparative religion forum.
One more thing, Michael, you are not doing yourself any favours by maligning people of other religions about which you know very little. I suggest that you keep on topic.
Actually, I have done quite a bit of reading about Hinduism. I have read the first few chapters of Bhagavad Gita, some of the first canto of the Bhagavata Purana, the first book of the Ramayana, a little of the Shiva Purana, and stories about the various Hindu "gods", especially Krishna. I actually identified as a Hindu for a point in my life and prayed to the Hindu "gods". I was also involved with Hare Krishna for almost a year, and attended services at their temple. So as a result of this, I actually know more about the theology and teachings of Hinduism than my girlfriend, who was raised a Hindu in Malaysia.
HINDUS DO NOT WORSHIP IDOLS AS GOD OR "THE VERY GODS THEMSELVES"
I posted the relevant quote from the Bhagavata Purana, showing how the divine can incarnate in those eight forms. When I visited the Hare Krishna temple, I was told that the "deities" (statues) were really God/Krishna. They were woken with prayers, bathed, dressed in special clothes, had food prepared for them, had a special ritual called the 'arati' offered to them at various times during the day, and put to sleep at night by various prayers.
If this isn't idol worship, then I don't know what is.
The very best i can say to you is same as Brother Qatada, actively seek the help of God and you will find your answers Inshallah.
Our preperation continued, with our efforts and the efforts of our brothers, for years and years. Through out that time we gathered, observed and waited until the moment to move arrived.
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Re: Considering Islam
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