English Department

**czgibson** · 11-20-2005

Greetings,

I've been thinking for a while that it might be useful to have a thread where people can ask questions about the English language - spelling, grammar, punctuation and things like that. After getting the thumbs-up for this idea on the "Down Crack" thread, I've decided to give it a go. Also, if anyone has questions about specific texts they are studying at school, people who've read them might be able to help out with those, too.

I'll get things started with a quick explanation about something that confuses lots of people (English or otherwise) - the apostrophe (').

Apostrophes have two main functions:

1. to show that letters have been left out of a word
2. to show that something belongs to someone or something.

They should never be used for plurals, so writing something like "I love animal's" would be wrong.

Here are some examples with the correct usage:

It's raining.
I'm feeling fine.
He's very silly.
They've moved house.

The apostrophes are there to show that the writer means "It is...", "I am...", "He is..." and "They have...".

Incidentally, when writing about decades, we don't need an apostrophe, because no letters have been left out:

The 1980s

That's simple enough, now for the more tricky part.

When we want to say that something belongs to someone or something, we write an apostrophe after the owner, and add the letter 's':

The dog's bone. (One dog owns the bone.)
John's house.

If the person or thing ends with the letter 's', or we want to talk about something with more than one owner, it's common to put an apostrophe after it, and not to add another 's':

James' football.
The dogs' bone. (More than one dog owns the bone.)

We always put the apostrophe after the owner, so in the two doggy examples above, in the first one the owner is "the dog", in the second the owner is "the dogs".

Still with me? OK. Now for the confusing part - the word "its". How do we know whether to write "it's" or "its"?

The answer is that we only use "it's" when we mean "it is". If you want to talk about something that is owned by something else, use "its":

Every rose has its thorn.
The dog was playing with its bone.

Right, I hope that's been useful for somebody. For now, bring on the questions...

Peace

**czgibson** · 11-20-2005

Greetings,

Far7an asked for an explanation of how to use commas, but I'm taking the lazy option by giving this link, which explains it more fully than I could:

Commas - Wikipedia entry

As you can see, there are many uses for commas! All I would add to that is that a comma is generally used in writing where you would normally pause slightly if you were speaking.

Peace

**Uthman** · 11-20-2005

Hi Callum,

Originally Posted by czgibson

Cool - what kind of poetry?

The Laboratory and My Last Duchess by Robert Browning. I immediately noticed how both of the main characters were deranged, and I was sure to include that in my essay.

Originally Posted by czgibson

Yes - we love it! Students have to be able to write essays in order to pass exams. That's the main reason you need to do so many of them! The reason they're valued in exams is that they are the best way to ascertain someone's view on any given question.

I see. I agree, this has caused me to re-think my view on essayanity. Darn, resistance is futile!

Originally Posted by czgibson

Well, there's a lot I could say, and it depends what kind of essay you had in mind. If you were writing an argumentative essay, that would be different from a descriptive essay, and so on.

A comparative essay. I've read that essays are always arguments and that's a key thing that students must understand. Is this true?

Originally Posted by czgibson

If you're writing about poetry (or any other text), the most important thing to remember is textual evidence. Every point you make has to be backed up with reference to the text. One way of building up paragraphs that I use with my students is called Point, Evidence, Explanation (or PEE for short).

You make your point; you back it up with a quotation; you explain how that quote relates to what you've said. Voila! A perfect paragraph is born!

Thank you very much indeed! I swear that the first time my English teacher reminded us to PEE on our papers, I was -- well -- scared would be an understatement.

Lastly, what is the difference between practised and practiced.

Thanks for all your help!

Regards,

Osman

**czgibson** · 11-20-2005

Hi Osman,

Just a quick one, cause I've got to get to bed...

"Practice" is a noun, like "advice", whereas "practise" is a verb, like "advise".

Bonne nuit!

Peace

**h1jabi_sista** · 11-21-2005

Originally Posted by Osman

Hi Callum,

The Laboratory and My Last Duchess by Robert Browning. I immediately noticed how both of the main characters were deranged, and I was sure to include that in my essay.

as salam alikum,

I remember doing that, i really enjoyed it and i hope you dont mind me helping.

Yes both the characters are deranged, but you have to say how? What do the two poems have in comman and what are their differences?

PEE was extremely helpful to me in my exams. Id make the most out it! I used to wonder why the teachers emphasised it soo much. But when your in the exam it adds structure to what your righting. Its a very good skill to have.

:sister:

**Muhammad** · 11-21-2005

Greetings Callum!

I am sorry I missed the launch of this thread, though I must say that I was extremely delighted that you went ahead with it! :sunny: I am sure you will benefit many people with this, as improving on our English skills is undoubtedly a very important task, and I thank you for taking the time to start this thread and helping the members of LI.

The thread does seem to be moving quite fast, and I hope you will not find the large numbers of questions too overwhelming!
I have a quick question from your first post about the apostraphes:

Is it wrong to say James's instead of James', or is it a case of common practice?

I think I will have more questions for later Insha'Allaah, but for now I will let you catch up on the thread!

Peace.

**czgibson** · 11-21-2005

Greetings,

Osman made the point that all essays are argumentative at some level, and this is broadly true. Even in a descriptive essay, or an explanatory piece of writing, you need to convince your reader that what you are saying is valid, which is a type of persuasive approach.

By the way, I'm not familiar with those two poems by Browning.

Even though they're standard texts, I've never had to teach them! I've never got round to reading them either - but you've reminded me so I'll do so now...

Muhammad raises an interesting point about whether it's incorrect to write James's rather than James'. This is really a question of common practice - the first way is not wrong, but many people think the second way looks neater. Really, it's up to you which method you use, as both are acceptable, but in printed books in English the second way is much more common.

Peace

**czgibson** · 11-22-2005

Greetings,

If you fancy another test, here's a quiz about commonly confused words:

Commonly Confused Words

This one is useful, but quite hard - I certainly didn't get full marks first time round.

Peace

**czgibson** · 11-22-2005

Greetings,

Osman, thanks for reminding me about the existence of Robert Browning - those two poems were great! There are plenty of points to compare and contrast. It's too late for me to give you my thoughts since you've handed your essay in already, but, for what it's worth, I preferred 'My Last Duchess' - it's very subtle and it conceals its secrets more cunningly!

Browning is a writer I've never had much interest in before, but I'll definitely be looking into his work more thoroughly now.

Thanks again!

Peace

**czgibson** · 11-22-2005

Greetings,

Here's a poem that I love so much I feel compelled to show it to people all the time. It's one of the most famous sonnets in English, and it's heavily ironic. It's by Percy Bysshe Shelley (1792-1822), and it's called 'Ozymandias':

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said:—Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shatter'd visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamp'd on these lifeless things,
The hand that mock'd them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains: round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Glossary:

trunkless = without a body
visage = face

Let me know what you think of it. Comments and questions are always welcome.

Peace

**h1jabi_sista** · 11-22-2005

as salam alikum, peace

That test was excellant! thank-you for sharing.

There are soo many words that have the same prounouciation, but are spelt differently, i didnt realise them until now.

Faze and phase, read and read, sun and son theres so many of them!

:sister:

**h1jabi_sista** · 11-22-2005

peace!

i get it!!!!

from here ''Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shatter'd visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamp'd on these lifeless things,
The hand that mock'd them and the heart that fed.'' ....to here, the poet is describing a corpse? a lifeless object? something decaying?

thisman mocked them im guessing. He thought himself ''"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:''
to back this up he wrote ''Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"

from the last few lines the irony kicks in
''Nothing beside remains: round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away. ''

the last line describes the vast distance of how wrong he was, as nothing is left but a few words to show the reader who he was.

:sister:

i just did that quickly, am i interpreting it right?

**czgibson** · 11-22-2005

Greetings,

Originally Posted by h1jabi_sista

....to here, the poet is describing a corpse? a lifeless object? something decaying?

It is a lifeless object - a stone statue which is mostly destroyed.

from the last few lines the irony kicks in
''Nothing beside remains: round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away. ''

the last line describes the vast distance of how wrong he was, as nothing is left but a few words to show the reader who he was.

i just did that quickly, am i interpreting it right?

Absolutely right - well done!

So the mighty will indeed despair, but not for the reason that Ozymandias imagines. The poem shows that the great will fall no matter how mighty they are.

Peace

**h1jabi_sista** · 11-22-2005

peace,

yes,:sister: hence the contrast on the the following line.

''Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"

**Uthman** · 11-23-2005

That's no problem Callum! I have to say that Robert Browning doesn't appeal to me much though! It must be an 'English teacher' thing.

What do you think of Far from the Madding Crowd by Thomas Hardy? We're studying it now. Do you suggest we try to interpret things word-for-word when reading pre-1914 prose or just to get the gist of what's going on?

Also, do you know why the exam boards are so insistent on us doing pre-1914 poetry and prose? Why must it still apply to everyone in the twenty-first century?

P.S. Your explanation about apostrophes has been really helpful

**Muhammad** · 11-23-2005

Greetings Callum,

I just wanted to ask why poets sometimes write certain words with apostraphes, for example mock'd instead of mocked, and shatter'd instead of shattered. Is this simply the style of old poetry?

Thanks in advance,

Peace.

**Khaldun** · 11-23-2005

I believe this is Elision you are refering to.

**F.Y.** · 11-24-2005

Awww, I missed the launch of this thread too!! Nevermind, I'm here now. Do you know the mistake I see many, many people making? When they spell the different "your/you're" wrong. E.g. "Your wrong" - ugh! It is You're, You're, You're.
It is shocking to see this kind of mistake on commercial stuff too.

I think that seeing as this is the 'proper English' thread, everybody is more willing (or under pressure?!) to spell and write out full sentences and words instead of "yeh i fink ur rite coz..." This kind of writing/spelling also annoys me - a lot.

hehe. Peace.

**Muezzin** · 11-24-2005

Word out to the LI Massive: Learn to Spell

Your -> This is your life... and your pair of underpants.

You're -> You're so sweet, they could make a cake out of you. An underpant cake.

Which -> Which pair of underpants do you want?

Witch -> She's a witch! She bewitched my underpants!

They're -> They're stealing my underpants

Their -> I stole their underpants

There -> There are your underpants

Son -> Those underpants belong to my son

Sun-> The sun burned your underpants to a crisp

**MetSudaisTwice** · 11-24-2005

salam
bro czgibson can you check this out for me? what can i do to improve it? or can you try and adjust errors or improvement for me?
jazakallah bro
wasalam

The Beggar

It is the season of summer now in the city of Makkah, Saudi Arabia. Warm? No, I think hot is the right word to describe today’s temperature. It was a particularly hot summer and each year as far as I can bear in mind the heat is significantly increasing in the city of Makkah, I have been suffering in this sweltering heat as I have many people to see and socialize with and usually walk through the beautifully yet jam packed streets to go to my friends houses. As I stroll through the congested streets full of locals and pilgrims from aboard celebrating the blessed month of Ramadhan I encounter one of my close friends and we decide to retire to a café to talk about life and have a cup of tea whilst talking.

As we sit down outside the café in the hot sunshine I call the waiter over, “Can I have two cups of tea please? Thank you”. Seeing as we were in café I thought I might as well get something to eat as I had work to go to in an hour’s time and it is a long shift. As I picked up the menu I notice there is many to choose from that I am spoilt for choice, after observing many delicious choices such as rice and chicken curry, chicken and chips that I could purchase to eat I then ordered to the waitress who was clearly not happy waiting for some time for me to order, “Can I also have two sandwiches please? Thank you”. While the waitress walked off to prepare our order I glanced over to the building that was opposite me and the café, the Grand Mosque of Makkah.

“The city looks simply stunning, don’t you think? Especially the Grand Mosque it looks so splendid!” my friend just nods his head in agreement, “Yes I agree; it is a joy to watch and mix with people who come from outside this Kingdom”
I was amazed as to how many people come year after year to visit this Mosque and how busy the streets of Makkah and the congested streets were so amazing to me. Although it is the summer period and many people suffer in the heat, people still find the strength to come and stroll through the beautiful city of Makkah.

As me and my friend sat there talking and laughing someone’s mobile started to ring. It was such a melodious ringtone and it was really loud too, very similar to my mobile phone’s ringtone. I got my phone out and checked if it was my mobile that was ringing. It wasn’t my mobile. I love my phone because it is such a thin, sleek design and it has all the essentials such as camera and video recording, but it was very expensive too. I then see that it was my friend’s phone that was ringing and he picks up and then indicates that he has to go, I presume maybe home to his wife and kids.

As I bid farewell to my friend my eyes caught a man who was disabled and he was a beggar in the busy streets, he was severely disabled and was begging in front of me on the other side of the street. This man was very desperate and looked very poor, he was wearing a shirt that was tattered and its buttons hanging off it and he was wearing a light colored trouser which was much worn out. As I observed his clothes I noticed that he was wearing a sandal which had seen its better days and the other foot was bare. The man had rummaged through the dustbin on the street in desperate hope to find food which to his joy he had found a few bones that he could chew on.
Just as he was chewing on a bone a rich looking man most likely to be a local Arab was clad in the traditional silky white thobe and red scarf on his head walked towards his parked car nearby the beggar. Many Arabian men wander through the streets wearing thobes which is aloose, long-sleeved, ankle-length garment. The summer thobes are white and made of cotton and it is perfectly suited for the hot desert climate of Saudi Arabia.

Just as the beggar was chewing on his dirty old bone, the Arab man who had parked his tinted Mercedes excessively close to the Grand Mosque in a designated VIP parking area walked passed the beggar on his way to his car. As he pulled the keys out and the alarm did that familiar electronic sound 'whup whup'. As the man entered his car the beggar put his hand on the Arab man’s shoulder in a desperate attempt to grab his attention and pulled him back. The beggar raised his finger to the sky and said, "Please, for the sake of your Muslim brother!”. The beggar had a clear accent and could speak perfect English, I could hear his speech clearly and I thought that isn’t bad for a beggar who could speak such clear and fluent English. The Arab man was taken aback at the fact that such a poor beggar had the nerve to touch and even ask such a rich man himself who was in such a high status in terms of social hierarchy compared to this ugly filthy looking tramp who was at the lowest point of the social status order.
“Do not touch me!” The voice was raised and in anger the Arab man pushed the beggar to the floor in such force that the beggar did not move from the ground for a while, his bone was thrown away from him as he landed on the floor on such impact. Trying to end the moment and avoid a dip into the pocket, the Arab man said back,
"Allah will provide you!" The beggar now on the floor in obvious pain said back, "What! Did you at any moment think that I thought YOU were my provider! I'm not asking for your provision, I KNOW Allah will provide for me."
As the beggar staggered and bought himself up from the floor, the two stood there staring at one another for a moment and then the Arab man went into his Mercedes and rolled up the tinted windows and then he drove away. He drove at such speed exquisitely and smoothly leaving behind the poisonous carbon monoxide fumes that continued to destroy the Earth’s Ozone Layer.

It was a shocking sight of course, to see so many people around, yet everyone was oblivious to the misery of this poor man. Why don’t the local community help the poor out more regularly? I try to donate as much money as I can generously but why can’t people align themselves with the poor and assist them out? I felt so emotionally overwhelmed by the incident the occurred right before my very own eyes. As I watched on in disbelief at such egotism of the Arab man the waiter delivered me my food. “Sir you have seemed to order two sandwiches but there seem to be only you here, do you want me to cancel this order?” I turned my back around to face the waiter, who had kindly put the sandwiches down the table.
“No leave them with me, leave both sandwich”.
The waiter seemed surprised as to why I had kept an extra sandwich but little did he know my intention as to why I intended to keep the extra sandwich. I looked at the sandwiches on the table, it looked very delicious, a toasted chicken sandwich with mayonnaise and lettuce. “Waiter hold on, can you give this sandwich to the beggar over there?” The waiter who had such neat combed hair and clean shaven face looked confused by my request.
“The beggar just across the road, he is wearing a light grey shirt that has its buttons hanging off and he is wearing cream trousers, go give the sandwich to him” then the waiter explains to me that he is not allowed off premises during work hours as it is against the work regulations. Looks like I will have to give him the sandwich myself. I might as well finish my delicious sandwich first and then I will give it to him. As I sat there eating my sandwich and also observing the beggar the thoughts of poverty and misery filled my mind. Here I was, someone to whom had been given so much. I had wealth, family, home, and so much more. Yet for the most part of my life was spent being unaware to the misery of the people around me.

I thought, "As I sit here eating this sandwich, safe and secure, how many people in this world are suffering from lack of food? How many people don’t have decent or any home to go to? I felt really ashamed of myself compared to this beggar because those who are blessed with such luxuries only think of buying bigger houses, better clothes, new mobile phones and faster cars while the poor only want some decent clothing and an adequate shelter to live in. people don’t give charity because they fear that it will lessen their riches but in fact it will help others and it will give you a moral boost.

As I eat my sandwich I notice that the beggar started to make a move.
“Waiter quickly give me the bill for these sandwiches” as I drop my half eaten sandwich on the table. i felt guilty knowing that my sandwich which I had not eaten will be thrown away in the rubbish tip. Yet how precious could they have been to the starving people in the country and around the world.

As the waiter hurriedly walks toward me with the bill I notice that the total amount is only 65 Riyals.
“Here is a hundred Riyals, keep the change”. It isn’t much and I can afford to buy food at such prices but these poor people can’t. As I ran out of the café I frantically search for the beggar. I really can’t see him, especially in this busy street. I ran toward the hotel at the end and by such chance I managed to see him in my sight.
“Hi I noticed what happened back there, and I am really sorry for what happened before with that egotistic man”, as I gasped and struggled for breath because that was a fair amount of running I did back there.
“What would you know?” the beggar says in a harsh and angry tone of voice. “Listen you just go back to wherever you came from, I don’t need you or your sympathy”
“I just wanted to give you this and I hope you accept this from me” As I show him the sandwich his scrawny face lights up and he is overjoyed. I feel really happy to be giving him such happiness.
“Thank you so much, this is probably the best food I will have in years” I felt so happy and proud to have been helping out the needy. I flicked my wrist and glanced at my Armani watch and noticed that I had not got long left until work.
“Brother I am going to have to go now, I am late for work” as I ran off toward the end of the street to catch the bus to work. As I wait for the bus feeling so happy and good about myself, I notice my bus was approaching. Oh I hope I get to work on time. I notice the gentleman in front of me reading a newspaper and on the back it read, ‘CHARITY DOES NOT DIMINISH WEALTH’

**czgibson** · 11-24-2005

Hi Osman,

Originally Posted by Osman

That's no problem Callum! I have to say that Robert Browning doesn't appeal to me much though! It must be an 'English teacher' thing.

Maybe so. To be honest, I'm not usually that keen on most 19th-century literature; there's always something twee about a lot of it. I particularly liked 'My Last Duchess', though, because of the way that we are suddenly introduced to this strange character with no background, and we have to look for nuances of language to work out exactly what's going on. It's like a puzzle, and Ferrara's crime is only revealed with very close reading. I love that sort of thing - it's why James Joyce is my favourite writer!

What do you think of Far from the Madding Crowd by Thomas Hardy? We're studying it now.

I'm not very keen on Thomas Hardy either - scandalous for an English teacher, I know! Having said that, his poetry is very good, but I find his novels very bleak. There's nothing wrong with being bleak, of course, but in the context of a chunky novel it's easy to feel overwhelmed by it.

Do you suggest we try to interpret things word-for-word when reading pre-1914 prose or just to get the gist of what's going on?

It depends how deeply you want to get into the book. When I read older literature I always want to know exactly what every word means, so I would recommend you try to do that. Feel free to show me some example sentences if you're having difficulty.

Also, do you know why the exam boards are so insistent on us doing pre-1914 poetry and prose? Why must it still apply to everyone in the twenty-first century?

It's partly to introduce you to the massive cultural heritage of English literature, and partly to show the enormous variety of tone, register and expression that's possible with the language. By the end of an English course, you should have a general impression of how the language has grown and developed. Also, unusual words and expressions can be very interesting, don't you think? For example, in the fourteenth century, the word 'also' was quite new. The word you'd find in its place more often is, wait for it, 'eek'! What a wonderful word!

Hi Muhammad,

I just wanted to ask why poets sometimes write certain words with apostraphes, for example mock'd instead of mocked, and shatter'd instead of shattered. Is this simply the style of old poetry?

Khaldun is right - this is called elision. Here's the reason for it: Before the 20th century, with a word like 'looked', you'd have a choice as to how to pronounce it, with one syllable, as we do now, or two (look-ed). In poetry, the number of syllables in a line is often very important in order to maintain a particular rhythm, so by eliding the word (making it shorter), the poet is making it clear how to pronounce it to give the intended rhythm. Conversely, if the poet wants the word to be pronounced with two syllables, you will see an accent over the 'e' to indicate this.

I hope that makes sense!

Peace