Is it Permissible to Talk to ones Fiancée over the Telephone?

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If I lived like a total recluse, and could prevent being in contact at all with bro's (and by contact I mean just seeing them around), I'd have no choice but to agree with you fully and to go down the path you're talking about.

But since I cant control the people who see me, since I cant block the ears of the ones who might hear me, and who like what they hear...then I cant see how I'd be committing a sin by accepting such a proposal.

And at free-mixing at uni/college. The individuals dont have to have 'free-mixed' for things to get as far as a proposal

format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen

You have just basically said - due to the unislamic situation that you live in, marriages happen which have some haram in it, which is what I have been saying all along.

No one has yet given me, a 100% halal way of marriage other than arranged.

Hmm, you're branding something haram that doesnt have to be haram. Not really.

A quick question, I know it was a completely different way of life and set of circumstances etc, but just for my personal knowledge, how did marriages come to be in the Prophets time?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramlah

she'd have to be oooone brave sis to do that ...

Yeah. I remember hearing in a lecture that there was this student at Madinah Uni or Umm al-Qura, one of them and basically he was in class, just got finished and was leaving. This sister comes up to him, all niqaab and everything and basically tells him that she's interested in marrying him, and is giving him the contacts for her wali. Now this poor brother, having a sister propose to him for the very first time, is scared out of his wits. Guess what he does? He turns around, doesn't say a word to the sister and runs away! Poor soul. lol.

format_quote Originally Posted by JolieFleur

BarakAllah feeki. Tbh, before reading that hadeeth I thought it to be the ultimate lack of Haya to present yourself to a bro. Wallahu A'lam

This is the thing ukthi. Sometimes we confuse our understanding of 'hayaa' and modesty with what our culture defines for us, meaning that what we think is hayaa is actually from our culture and not from the religion. Our religion isn't black and white, there are shades of gray and there are things that are allowed whilst the Islamic ettiquete are properly observed. Directly proposing is one of them - it is completely permissible for a man to directly propose to a woman and vice versa. Sure, culture might play a role, but that doesn't neccasarily mean that it is haraam. Shaykh Anwar once said in one of his lectures - he said that the Prophetic generation was more liberal than the conservatives of today, and more conservative than the liberals of today. Meaning, there was balance in their lives, in all aspects, including gender relations.

format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen

How would you know you liked her, unless you go to know her through non-halal means? (e.g., talked/met in school and so fourth). I mean, as a stranger, she should not make talk or discussion with you, and be fully covered - how would a brother end up liking her in such a way?

I think that if you believe that talking in school when it is needed such as MSA, class etc, is haraam and that this point can actually be observed, then you're living in ideals. Because by the same exact token, talking online such as this forum ought fall into haraam as well. If you believe that interaction between males and females is completely haraam, then I think that if you were to pick up Ibn Qayyims' Rawdatul Muhibeen or Ibn Hazm's Tawq al-Hamamah, you'd be very shocked.

http://www.islamicboard.com/miscella...onversing.html

Secondly, how an individual likes another person varies from person to person. Some people start liking a person only when they hear a description, some at first sight, and some after knowing the person for a long time. It's the heart, and the liking someone isn't controlled by an individual. If you've experienced it, then I believe you'd understand my point.

What I mean is I understand what your saying, but I wouldn't deem that completely halal - in that it requires you to get to know the sister (to like her), but that means usually in a non-halal way - Even though the next steps may be halal (contacting wali etc).

You're assuming that to like someone, you need to know them very well which can only be done through long conversations etc. But that's an incorrect premise, because liking someone can come just from seeing or noticing a quality they have. Also, when a person is serious about marrying someone, they're allowed to observe that person from far in order to see how they interact. There's a hadeeth in Abu Dawud where the companion, Jabir b. Abdullah says: "I asked a girl in marriage, I used to look at her secretly, until I looked at what induced me to marry her. I, therefore, married her." Notice: 1) He asked the girl to marry her. 2) He used to look at her secretly, 3) Not just a glance, but until he saw what he liked within her. Ofcourse, this was after he proposed to her, but nevertheless, with changes in circumstances, things that are normally impermissible can become permissible as exceptions.

So my point is basically, there are different things that are allowed at different times in accordance with each scenario, that's why it isn't balanced and quite impractical to take a brush and paint everything with the same color.

Some scholars have stated, their is no love outside wedlock - and its just lust. How would you reply?

I'd say that these scholars haven't experienced it because there have been other scholars that have, and that therefore they are basing their opinion upon what has reached them.

After all, it is known that love can exist before marriage, acknowledged by the Messenger sallalahu alayhi wa sallam himself when he said (in a hadeeth collected by Ibn Maajah):

"Ibn Abaas (radi Allahu anhu) reported that a man came to the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) and said, 'We have an orphan girl under our custody. A poor man and a rich man have both courted her. She prefers the poor man, but we prefer the rich man. (What should we do?)" The Prophet (salAllahu alayhi wassalam) responded, "For those who love each other, nothing has proven as good as marriage."

The Prophet sallalahu alayhi wa sallam didn't condemn the orphan girl for loving someone before her marriage. Therefore, we can conclude that it isn't something haraam.

Another incident was at the time of Umar ra. I believe this was mentioned by Ibn Hazm as well, but I don't remember at the moment. This man said to him: "O Ameer ul mu’mineen…I’m in love with her". Umar r.a. replied: “It’s not in your hands, what can I do for you?”

format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen

How would 2 people, love eachother, through halal means? I mean, consider the etiquettes of men and women, strangers.

Believe me bro, it can and does happen. Each person is different, and some types of people cannot fall in love easily. Some can. Everyone's different.

Also, the 2nd example you gave, showed a man to have lust for a woman (desired intercourse), which goes with what I had stated.

Isn't one of the reasons a woman is married for, beauty, as per the hadeeth? Isn't intercourse one of the intentions in marriage? Really, if someone were to suggest that it wasn't, I'd say they're expecting men to be like the Malaikah.

format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen

I don't know If I am completely convinced, of another route other than arranged being the only halal. Some try to use the Prophet (saw) examples, but he was a Prophet, and he did dealings differently then we are allowed to on many things - he was on a prophetic mission in the end of the day.

You would have to bring proof though that the incidents we're discussing were specific to him only and no one else. Marrying more than 4 women is only for him salalahu alayhi wa sallam, there is proof for that. But for the other things such as a women directly proposing to a man?

I know of people, who "loved" eachother and got married - but they only "loved" eachother, because of having had an illegal relationship (this could merely be that they meeted, talked, maybe the girl wasn't full covered, the modesty laws were not fully addressed - I mean a guy and a girl, who are strangers, just joking around, having "fun", would be considered an illegal relationship).

Then akhi, I'd have to say you havent seen much. I've seen brothers and sisters who genuinly loved each other without ever coming close to haraam, and they're married and happy, Alhamdullilah.

I know these things happen, but, you and I know, that isn't the "halal" way, that is, a man not lowering his gaze - or a woman not being covered enough as to not attrat men.

You're right, the eye is what starts it all off. But it is reality that when you're on a campus setting there will be more interaction such as talking in class, MSAs, etc. And like I said before, sometimes it might not be beauty that attracts, it could be a quality, or the way the person carries them self etc.

format_quote Originally Posted by maryam87

He he funny one I would wonder what they guy would think if a girl proposed to him these days LOL

It depends on the brother. Some brothers might not like it, others might not care, and others might actually like it. I personally wouldn't mind if a sister directly proposed to me. I'd consider it seriously.

Check out this poll where this same question was put to a number of brothers:

http://forums.almaghrib.org/showthread.php?t=19511

format_quote Originally Posted by amani

what about the part where they both want to get married but the girls parents wont agree. now that is a big problem.

Ofcourse, but that's a different story. I made sure in the scenarios I gave the parents were involved and the scenario worked out via mutual family approval. If the girl's parents don't agree...it depends on her..can she slowly work on them to get them to approve or not?

format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad

Yeah. I remember hearing in a lecture that there was this student at Madinah Uni or Umm al-Qura, one of them and basically he was in class, just got finished and was leaving. This sister comes up to him, all niqaab and everything and basically tells him that she's interested in marrying him, and is giving him the contacts for her wali. Now this poor brother, having a sister propose to him for the very first time, is scared out of his wits. Guess what he does? He turns around, doesn't say a word to the sister and runs away! Poor soul. lol.

ummm....no comment @the guy i mean...
i mean if he didnt agree, he could have said that he was going to think about it, but really send someone to tell her, instead of doing that

This is the thing ukthi. Sometimes we confuse our understanding of 'hayaa' and modesty with what our culture defines for us, meaning that what we think is hayaa is actually from our culture and not from the religion. Our religion isn't black and white, there are shades of gray and there are things that are allowed whilst the Islamic ettiquete are properly observed. Directly proposing is one of them - it is completely permissible for a man to directly propose to a woman and vice versa.

too true... in some cultures, if a girl proposes to the guy, shes seen as cheap and desperate, this is indirectly as well (i.e through family, etc). id hate to see what they'd think of her if she did it directly. poor thing ffended: she would be the talk of the town


but i would personally advice sisters to do it through family, etc not because of a hayaa thing, but he may react as above...OR at the very least, get a vague idea through a mutual friend or something of what he would think of a direct proposal...i mean background info is always good, so that you know what your in for.

and even that its permissible, not every one thinks/acts like the sahabis

format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen

Brother, you still didn't give an example. To notice qualities and so fourth - would require some kind of free mixing interaction.

You have any anecdotes to share? Because I am sure, due to a westernised setting, or an unislamic settings, scenarios which would not exist in the perfect Islamic society would have been the causes in my utmost opinion.

"Liking" someone does not necessarily have to mean "liking" someone in the way I think you're understanding it. The way I understand it is seeing/hearing about someones characteristics, liking them (the characteristics), and then deciding whether or not you would be compatible with someone with those characteristics.

For example, I have a friend who has 2 older brothers, and she talks about them a lot. I've only ever seen them perhaps twice in my 4 years of knowing her, and it was a mere "salam" that was spoken. BUT I feel like I already know them from all she has said. She talks about me to her family quite a bit as well, so they probably know me too. So if either party was interested, there could have been "like", through 100% halal means.