an effort to bring peace between different faiths,beliefs and lifestyles

What makes this discussion a bit of unusual is that many of those bigoted opinions about Islam and how it treats non-Muslims (or kafirs or some stronger expressions) are more of less copied from the speech of the far-right extremist islamophobics. They too claim that Islam has been spreaded by sword and sword only, and the main aim of Muslims is force all people to follow their rules. They see that Islam is bloodthirsty religion what encourage it followers to harass all others. That´s why they have to warn their supporters (or possible followers) about Islam and Muslims and prepare themselves to the fight against Islam.

As one members here wrote before: he writes like he does because he must to do so. Well, that´s exactly what those far-right islamophobics say too. They too must to warn and spread their hate against others. Interesting how similar they speeches are, isn´t it? They are like the two branches of the same tree, roots pushed deep into hate, generalization and prejudices.

(In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

(Peace be upon you)

Let me make clear that we have an ijma (consensus) of ulema (scholars) on the issue of Daesh's illegitimacy and also that they are fighting an illegitimate jihad; however, where they differed is that while most ulema (scholars) consider them Khawarij, some considered them kuffar, and some took the moderate position of considering them only deviated and thereby deviants.

So, in summary, even if you do not understand this from the Islamic standpoint, from the point of view of scholars, the ahadeeth (prophetic traditions) do indeed point to Daesh being Khawarij as they've determined based on the signs enumerated in these ahadeeth, and the primary signs from which they've gleaned that is the group making the blood of fellow Muslims halal (permissible to spill). Also, from an Islamic standpoint, laypersons are not free to dissent from a matter on which ijma has been formed.

From an Islamic standpoint, when there's conflict, it not only means that laypersons like yourself are not free to dissent from the matter but that it is entirely out of the bounds for you to transgress the limits prescribed by the scholars because Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) very clearly said, "My nation will never agree upon misguidance, and if you witness any conflict, then follow the majority of my nation" (Ibn Majah) and then also said in another hadith (prophetic tradition), "That which the Muslims consider good, Allah considers good." What all of this means for you as a layperson is that you have to follow the scholars in not taking the sides of oppressors just because they are good at sloganeering about jihad. For example, if a person gave you a bottle in which there was poison and you knew this but it was relabeled as "ambrosia," are you now supposed to drink the poison and consider the liquid instead medicine? That is unfathomable and would be beyond foolish; similarly, we as believers do not believe in slogans but we believe in judging for ourselves the reality from the information we learn and from the judgment of scholars.

And there's proof that there will not be any Muslim rule until Mahdi because a hadith (prophetic tradition) says the following: “Two believers have ruled the world, and two unbelievers. The believers are Sulayman and Dhul’qarnayn . The unbelievers are Nemrud and Nebuchadnezzar. The fifth, the Mahdi descended from my line, will also rule the world.” If there had been the Caliphate of the magnitude you imagine under which all Muslims are supposed to unite before the time of Mahdi for the purpose of being with Mahdi , then Allah and His Prophet would have mentioned the matter so that we may take heed but instead we're informed that Mahdi will come because "I swear that such calamities will befall this community that people will find nowhere to hide from this oppression and cruelty. At such a troubled time Almighty Allah will send a relative of mine, one of my line, thanks to whom the world will be filled with justice and security. In the same way that the world was full of oppression and cruelty (before him). All the dwellers in the skies (angels and the spirits of the prophets) and all those on Earth (believers and animals) will be pleased (with him). In the time of Hadhrat Mahdi , the sky will begrudge no rain and will generously cause rain to fall." Also, we had Prophet tell us the following: "Before the Hour comes, there will be a tribulation like patches of dark night. A man will get up a believer and go to sleep an unbeliever, or will go to sleep a believer and wake up an unbeliever. The one who sits at that time will be better than one who stands and the one standing will be better than the one walking and the one walking will be better than one running. Break your bows, cut their strings and strike your swords against stones. If someone comes to kill any of you, then be like the better of the two sons of Adam" (Abu Dawud, Ibn Majah).

Finally, we do not know what type of weapons will be used during the time of Mahdi except that probably nuclear holocaust will have destroyed almost all of the human tribe so that the remaining persons will witness miracles so that it will essentially be a battle between good vs. evil because in that time the kufr will be so clear from iman that it will be the difference between day and night.

So, perhaps instead of asking me to try again in a decade, you should yourself go to scholars and ask them to teach you what you do not know; because it is very obvious to me that you do not know and are a troublemaker from your own expressed opinions. However, for your own sake and benefit, I'd hope you'd make the effort to humble yourself and have scholars give you the explanations from which you'd learn because it is the matter of your aakhirah (hereafter) and no small matter if you make a misstep. Remember we know from the hadith (prophetic tradition) that "Allah's hand is over the group, and whoever dissents from them departs to hell" (Trimidhi) which has been explained by scholars that those who dissent and fracture themselves from the opinion of majority are those whom we may clearly identify as those who have taken themselves out of the jamaa' and into the arms of misguidance and shaitaanic deviation.

format_quote Originally Posted by frabgas27

I can use the same thing about how you know the hadiths that you stated before is 100% for IS? Is it the same for the Taliban or Al Qaeda? If its not then your point is Batil and makes me assume as to how you know which hadith pin points at which group. How do you know for sure that, that hadith is for IS? And it also goes to show that Islam will be spread by the sword, thank you for clarifying the point ive been making the past 20 replies. Try again next year.

And also there is no evidence stating that Imam madhi will be the first one to establish the khilafah after being lost. Try again in a decade.

(And peace be upon you)

format_quote Originally Posted by frabgas27

But we are being expelled from our lands, we are being expelled in our own lands by the same people that you want interfaith with. This deen isnt a deen of pleasing the kings. Even if we were to have a dialogue what will that achieve? Will that by any chance get rid of the suffering the ummah is enduring? While you are sitting there creaming interfaith your brothers, sisters are being murdered. And it wouldnt surprise me if you were to criticise the mujahideen with your interfaith buddies and condeming their actions and stating, "Oh no, you see these people dont represent islam in any way". How can you have the audacity to say that against the men that are fighting for this ummah, against the men that are fighting for allah and his word to be the highest. they are out there in the mountains fighting for the sake of allah why are you criticising them? Who are you really pleasing?

Yes, you are right. Read the previous verses of sura 60 and find am right too. Islam is fair . So read the context of any verse of the noble Quran first before you speak against the verses of Allah. If you still get did not get it, tell me .

But do not jump to your own conclusions and slander . I do not blame or its not to right to blame anyone who fights what Allah has commanded for and its funny to see your silly post with zeal but without deliberation..

But who its is really fighting as Allah told to fight ? am not sure except in the case of against Israel . Allah ul waalam . Even there suicide killings & killing of innocent is not Islamic.

format_quote Originally Posted by frabgas27

Against any kuffar, that are oppressing the muslims. Whoever blows the muslims up is an enemy, whoever oppresses the muslims is an enemy. If you say otherwise then who are you pleasing.

You are my enemy - I find that pleasing.

How can such ignorants exist in Islam is beyond me but reading you is like listening to an extremist trying to justify his perverse need to see blood spilt.

You are sick, you need help.

Scimi

I am wondering how you frabgas managed to ignore my whole post while quoting it - then ranting off about something which was neither here nor there ? Instead you just ranted like an extremist trying to recruit or at the very least, incite violence ...

I bet in real life you're a kitten that is afraid of it's own shadow. Basically a coward.

Scimi

Cowards can post hard... (right frabgas) inferiority complexes are rife with those ummah forum members lol

I believe my initial post in this thread quoting you and proving you to be a buffoon was on point and you had no comeback within any context that fit.

I'm gonna call you john snow from now on, coz you know nothing.

You coward shill.

Scimi

format_quote Originally Posted by frabgas27

Against any kuffar, that are oppressing the muslims. Whoever blows the muslims up is an enemy, whoever oppresses the muslims is an enemy. If you say otherwise then who are you pleasing.

Yes we have to speak against anybody who killed Muslims

So Pakistan which bombed Taliban , Saudi which bombs Yemen , Isis which kills muslims who differed in the opinion & the coptic Dhimmis etc what say have you got against them ??

I pray any one innocent even if he is a kuffar we have no right to kill him since Allah created him too . Read the Noble Quran well and you will understand what do i mean . ponder on these verses

Noble Quran 22:40 '' [They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might. ''

Whatever we think is not Deen or virtue but only listening to Allah is the Deen and virtue (sawab) as per the Law of Allah. or making our own is biddah and all biddah's lead ust to fire (hadith) The above verse proves even those who were there in there even had some sort of Belief on Allah though they were misguided. Only Allah knows. Allahul waalam.

And remember, all us reverts were before non-Muslims - kafirs. Every day some kafirs accept Islam and become our sisters and brothers. Sayings harsh words about them today may prevent them accept Islam tomorrow as they will get very bad image about Muslims.

Sometimes I think that interfaith dialogue with others is quite easy but how we Muslims could agree with anything as this thread too seems to be full of arguing between Muslims...

Greetings and peace be with you frabgas27;

Allah guides whom he wills, we have no power over converting someone or not.

And if Allah wanted all of us to be Muslim, then we would be, we cannot fight against Allah.

All we can do is convey the message

Because there is no compulsion in religion, and if Allah is not compelling me to be a Muslim, it would seem a pointless exercise for you to wave your sword at me.

And that means we dont sugar coat our deen to make it seem more appealing.

Does that mean that you ignore all the passages that refer to mercy, forgiveness, patience, kindness and love, so you can just convey the sword waving bits to us?

Islam is a complete message, and you start with salaam, the offer of peace.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

format_quote Originally Posted by frabgas27

Allah guides whom he wills, we have no power over converting someone or not. All we can do is convey the message. And that means we dont sugar coat our deen to make it seem more appealing.

Sugar taste better than sour vinegar what you have sprinkled on top of your sword. And the message works much better if you now leave your sword to the closet. It´s useless here in this forum. We don´t hit people, we talk with them peacefully.

format_quote Originally Posted by frabgas27

But we are being expelled from our lands, we are being expelled in our own lands by the same people that you want interfaith with. This deen isnt a deen of pleasing the kings. Even if we were to have a dialogue what will that achieve? Will that by any chance get rid of the suffering the ummah is enduring? While you are sitting there creaming interfaith your brothers, sisters are being murdered. And it wouldnt surprise me if you were to criticise the mujahideen with your interfaith buddies and condeming their actions and stating, "Oh no, you see these people dont represent islam in any way". How can you have the audacity to say that against the men that are fighting for this ummah, against the men that are fighting for allah and his word to be the highest. they are out there in the mountains fighting for the sake of allah why are you criticising them? Who are you really pleasing?

format_quote Originally Posted by frabgas27

Allah guides whom he wills, we have no power over converting someone or not. All we can do is convey the message. And that means we dont sugar coat our deen to make it seem more appealing.

That is a lazy way to look at things. Yes, Allah has power over everything and Allah guides whom he wills, but Allah has given us the power to make our own choices in this dunya as well as making us responsible for our own actions. Did the prophet saws ever give up on his uncle and simply say Allah guides whom he wills while leaving it at that? Of course not.

The whole "us vs them" mindset is too simplistic. There is a lot of "us vs ourselves" going on. We can't even come to terms with each other in our own communities. We let things like ego, money, cultural differences, political power get in our way. The first thing people want to do is inflict damage on someone who disagrees with them or has a different opinion. Dialog seems to be a thing of the past these days..

Who are the mujahideen you are speaking of? Apparently, there are many different "mujahideen" groups out there spread across different countries and they're all willing to fight each other, for those that haven't already. They're also willing to kill other Muslims without hesitation. Why are Syrian refugees willing to painstakingly travel all the way to places like the US and the UK rather than go to their Muslim neighbors? Why are our African brothers and sisters willing to do the same? Why did the Egyptians close their borders when the Gazans were being blown up like fish in a bucket? The west can be blamed for a lot of things, and rightfully so, but why must we ignore the problems we're creating for ourselves?

http://www.muslimjewish.org.uk/index.html

Some common interests of Muslims and Jews

• The right to hold religious beliefs
• The right to manifest religious practices
• The retention of religious humane methods of animal slaughter for food in the United Kingdom
• Campaigning for faith schools
• The retention of male circumcision
• The right to have religious observances respected by public bodies and the wider community
• The provision of acceptable methods of post mortem examinations

Some of the things we have done

We engage in practical activities to increase mutual understanding which participants enjoy. These are often educational, but whatever we do needs to be enjoyable, as otherwise people won’t come! Some examples are:

• Visiting mosques and synagogues
• Holding celebrations for religious festivals like Eid and Chanukah
• Group visits to Krakow, Auschwitz, Granada and Cordoba, Marrakech, Dubrovnik, Paris, Brussels and Lisbon.
• Several of us went on a study tour of Israel and the West Bank organised by the Forum for Discussion of Israel and Palestine.
• Informal dinners, which allow time for unstructured conversation
• Talks on matters such as our respective approaches to finance, marriage and divorce, funeral arrangements etc
• Monthly faith dialogues in partnership with the Faith Network 4 Manchester
• Faith awareness sessions in schools and youth groups
• Bringing women together to celebrate International Women’s Day