Law in Islamic world - and its affects on outsiders

pls.. I am having such an incredibly difficult time believing this nonsense considering all those women in Mecca (the house of God) with exposed faces praying about while there are men in the same place.. Perhaps the aussie did more than expose her face to the neighbor? that is, if there is actual truth in that article.. and I have lived in Saudi Arabia for four years..our neighbors were lebanese and christian, they loved it!


otherwise, be advised that Saudi Arabia isn't implementing shari'a law, for starters and should be obvious to the naked eye, Sharia'a doesn't run on a monarchy system and if you'd read a little, that would have been your first tip off..

as for us women.. what can I say, we must really love being all meek and feeble so we convert to Islam at a ratio of 5:1

cheers

I've seen CNN's Inside Middle East where Hala Gorani went unveil in a mall in Jeddah...she said that non-Saudis are allowed to be hijabless..

The building where I lived in KSA had a swimming pool, the foreign women would literally push the men and children out, take off their 3abayas and swim in their bikinis.. the building had an atrium and people could basically look out the window at the swimming pool and its inhabitants, they didn't give a d a m n..

It is ridiculous.. when they write such articles I know they aim it at a western audience, they think the rest of us bucolic country oafs just waiting for their valiant knights to save us perhaps even take us into the 21st century.. they sicken me.. honestly, all the crap they spew on the net and the news, and God forbid you there is a voice of dissent..
perhaps someone should interview the hubby and other parties see why her divorce was so 'acrimonious'

Here is 'democracy'.. freedom ONLY to express western sentiment!

How long ago since you were in Saudi PA?
Is it possible that Saudi has areas that are more "liberal" than others. If you head into Rural Rutland with a satanic T-shirt, you would get a negative response. The same shirt in Leeds wouldnt cause a second glance.
Same with the USA. Head to the bible belt with a Richard dawkins mask on and see how long you last.

Perhaps this lady is in a more religious area?
Perhaps its because she is Western? Remember the "Mohammed" teddy bear farce?
Or mayby your right. She's making the whole thing up and shes simply an anti islamic madwoman trying to slur Islam, and none of it actually happened?

format_quote Originally Posted by barney

How long ago since you were in Saudi PA?
Is it possible that Saudi has areas that are more "liberal" than others. If you head into Rural Rutland with a satanic T-shirt, you would get a negative response. The same shirt in Leeds wouldnt cause a second glance.
Same with the USA. Head to the bible belt with a Richard dawkins mask on and see how long you last.

Perhaps this lady is in a more religious area?
Perhaps its because she is Western? Remember the "Mohammed" teddy bear farce?
Or mayby your right. She's making the whole thing up and shes simply an anti islamic madwoman trying to slur Islam, and none of it actually happened?

been a while actually, I was a little girl at the time.. I was amused by the whole thing, given my home country was nothing like KSA, but I digress-- you are right some areas are less strict than others.. I lived in Riyadh and that was generally considered to be the strictest, when I went to see my aunt in jeddah after she had, had my cousin, I was surprised indeed by women at the beach without hijab etc eating gyros on the plage, unaccompanied by men and laughing away.. I thought it was odd the 'americans' had to kick the men out and turn off the light to go swimming, in Riyadh, but they did it.. in Jeddah, they didn't need to kick anyone out, or turn off any lights.. so there is indeed disparity between the cities, but I can't imagine them being stricter than Riyadh.. they were ludicrous at times with their matwa3een forcing people to go pray, my dad had to bail a christian guy from jail once because he didn't offer prayer...but that has nothing to do with Islam, and I really can't imagine someone going through all this for not wearing a face veil..

believe me when my dad left us there for 6 months while he had to go on a diplomatic leave, he left a Saudi guardian to oversee our affairs until we left the country, they are not the monsters folks paint them to be.. I dare even say, they were some of the nicest people I had encountered..
.. our neighbor upstairs were saudis and contrary to popular belief they were poor and struggling to make ends meet, the wife worked as a seamstress, but had a quiet dignity about her, that is she never begged or solicited the way they do in other 'Muslim countries' in fact she used to offer people free samples of her work in special occasions, hoping someone would ask her to sew their garments . and when it was Eid time, she had food bags for everyone in the building...

so I am not going to sit here and agree with an article clearely one sided, when I have actually lived amongst these people and know them to be different from the group of effete indulgent and morally decayed bunch they are often portrayed as being..

If you think you are going to visit a country and everyone will be nice to you, or everyone is going to be wicked, pathetic and backwards, they I truly pity you.. people are people the world over.. and there are always two sides to every story.. so far I have heard just one.. and it seems a little odd.. my mom, my two aunts, my grandmother, my sister paraded around with their face uncovered for years in KSA and I in my little short dresses and it didn't cause an international upheaval..

you tell me whom should I believe?

cheers

No Idea. Ive never been KSA. I have been to Kuwait, but diddnt really get to mix since it was all confined to camp stuff. The city looked amazing as we flew in though.

All I know of it is what i see on the news.
I recall though how much my country has changed since i was a kid.
I used to be able to run about the countryside aged 7, the police would clip you round the head if you got into trouble, people made fun of gays and Drugs were something the doctor prescribed you.
Societys change amazingly in such a short time.
Perhaps KSA is still the land you knew, perhaps its a Wabbithabbit totalitarian nightmare where women get beaten for showing their faces.

I accept you knew the country as it was. Neither of us can say what it is today. Perhaps a KSA resident can tell us if they feel free enough to speak.

I've lived in Saudi Arabia twice, for a year in 99, and now, been there since 04.

In those few years it has changed immensely.
First off, Saudi in 99. When you went out, you had to wear an abaya, cover your hair, and in many places, cover your face. Religious policemen were everywhere, very strict, tell women to cover if they're not, make sure all shops close during prayer time, etc.

Nowadays, religious policemen are much rarer to come across. In my 3 years there I've only seen one twice. All women are required to wear an abaya, but covering the hair or face are 2 rules that are no longer enforced. So wherever you go, there are non muslim (or even muslim) women that do not cover their hair, let alone their face. And this is in Riyadh, which is way stricter than Jeddah, or Dammam, or Khobar. This story could have taken place somewhere else, where covering is the norm.. There are quite a few very small traditional cities that I guess are more reserved. The article mentions Riyadh though, so I'm not sure if that's the case here.

In any case, I find it extremely hard to believe this story.
Plus, most westerners (and many non saudis) live in compounds, like Skye described, where saudi rules don't even apply. So you've got free mixing, women uncovered, dances and parties, drinking (though not officially recognized); it's a bit of suburbian america in the middle of the desert. Most, and by most I mean like 95% of westerners live in compounds like these, but I guess this woman could be of the minority that doesn't.

Barrio- This is not shariah, don't be stupid, thanks.

Thats great info Crayon. Nothing like a first hand account to tell it like it is.

Its good to hear that things are more relaxed now. What do you attribute that to?

The other strange thing is why do Westerners live in compounds? Are they like pets!?

Westerners live in compounds so that they can live in an environment like they do in their home countries. Like I said, besides the weather, living in a compound is like living in the US/Canada/the UK. But it's actually even better.

First off, compounds are very expensive, but usually expats are given housing allowances to cover the costs. So a compound is basically a bunch of houses (could be from 10 to a couple hundred, depending on the size of it). Sometimes they come fully furnished, other times not. The compound usually has facilities for the people that live there, they include things like: gyms, swimming pools, restaurants, day cares, hair salons, small supermarkets, rec rooms, bowling alleys, pool tables, sports halls (for sports like basketball, volleyball, etc), libraries, movie theatres, and all sorts of other stuff. Bigger compounds usually organize things like bazaars, BBQ's, dances, parties. So if you're an expat, living in KSA, with your company paying for your housing, living in a compound is a pretty great perk.

As for why things are more relaxed nowadays, I have no clue.. Could be the different rulers of the countries having different opinions on what is best? I've heard the new-ish king is very more relaxed in terms of religion. But besides that guess, I don't know.

I recommend everyone get this book
Confessions of an Economic Hit Man


will tell you exactly what the foreigners are doing in Saudi Arabia and other oil rich Arab countries.. in order to misappropriate money from Saudis on phony companies and incomplete projects... the same bankrupt morals that have lead in large part to their economic demise here in the U.S....
Sob7an Allah.. it really reminds me of the verse in suret AL Baqra

'When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only want to make peace!" 2.11

format_quote Originally Posted by barney

No Idea. Ive never been KSA. I have been to Kuwait, but diddnt really get to mix since it was all confined to camp stuff. The city looked amazing as we flew in though.

All I know of it is what i see on the news.
I recall though how much my country has changed since i was a kid.
I used to be able to run about the countryside aged 7, the police would clip you round the head if you got into trouble, people made fun of gays and Drugs were something the doctor prescribed you.
Societys change amazingly in such a short time.
Perhaps KSA is still the land you knew, perhaps its a Wabbithabbit totalitarian nightmare where women get beaten for showing their faces.

I accept you knew the country as it was. Neither of us can say what it is today. Perhaps a KSA resident can tell us if they feel free enough to speak.

It wasn't 'eons' ago that I was in KSA, most likely since they have become more liberal...
the other comment I'll make about your own neck of the woods, is that homosexuality wasn't merely an act to be 'made fun' of, it was punishable by imprisonment...

cheers

format_quote Originally Posted by barrio79

Thanks for all the enlightening response , but no one has yet offered up any help to the Australian Women in distress in Saudi as we sp;eak...

You seem most concerned, touched by her condition, and to know more about it, than the rest of us.. why aren't you offering her your help? or what would you like the forum members to do?-- hilarious!

I too find this article VERY hard to believe. Either way, even if it IS true (which I highly doubt), she broke the law knowingly (presumably) and should therefore take responsibility for her actions.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine

the other comment I'll make about your own neck of the woods, is that homosexuality wasn't merely an act to be 'made fun' of, it was punishable by imprisonment...

cheers

Thats true about 80 years ago. Then we threw off lots of Religious based laws. We only threw Blasphemy out this year!
Amazing how long it takes for reason to filter into a society when the Church opposes it.

I guess it is in the same ball park or, man imprisoned for wearing long pants in Greenwich village -- It is a little absurd and unrealistic at best -- I have no idea what you define as a 'credible newspaper' but we're all fed up really with the so-called credibility of western newspapers.. it seems non-existing at best, especially when it comes with anything to do with Islam...

I think it is great you are sympathizing and I am sure the whole of Australia is along with you, toward those barbaric Muslims-- what more would you like?

Actually, barrio, I find these news very sad. There are so many bad things in the world happening, it makes you feel kind of empty when you read things like this so often. Everywhere you hear the most horrible and terrifying news, it's becoming part of our daily lives.

You have to understand why people don't react too fiercly about this, there are thousands killed somewhere in the world and when one person's situation is made a tragedy while those thousands have become only statistics, it makes you just shake your head.

I feel really sorry for the lady, I doubt the source and details are 100% accurate, but it is obvious she must be going through a very hard time. Yet again, she is more blessed than other women around the world, facing similiar problems, if not worse. I really hope she'll get through it and won't have to suffer any much longer.