Muslim "terrorism" Vs. Western "social culture"

**ChOcCi** · 09-25-2009

This was an interesting debate brought up on the other thread and unfortunately, it could not be elaborated since the thread went off topic.

Alright, now the thing is, ALL of us Muslims here DO mind when the western world calls us "terrorists" right? Be it because of their propaganda, or because of our acts (which is not the case) us Muslims HAVE had our reputation go down due to the actions done by the groups such the Taliban who perform sins in the name of OUR religion. Their actions DID make our religion come across as wrong and ever since then, the Western world never stopped calling us terrorists and till today we fight against this injustice as what they say is wrong and we are NOT terrorists although in the modern times (immediate present) only Muslims have had an "islamic group" who performed terror in the name of our religion (Taliban). In this aspect, the other religions come off as clean as they DO have terrorists, but hardly do they perform crime in the name of religion.

But look at us. Everytime we talk about the west, we ALWAYS go on like how shallow they are, how they are like public property, they have no shame and freely go to bed with anyone, they do drugs, etc.

How can we expect them to stop calling us terrorists, if we dont stop calling them these? Fact is, MANY of the muslim population (even the ones who arent living in the west) perform the same act as them sitting here in our "Muslim countries".

What the most of their population does, is not right. But what we do, is not right either. If they do the wrong thing, we must try to correct them, but you can NEVER correct someone if you constantly criticize them without any will to show them the right path. Thats what we do all the time.

So we feel bad when they wrongfully call us terrorists right? What about the people in the west, the ones who DO stay away from these activities, how do they feel when we talk about them in this way?

Islam has taught us to be kind to everyone and to be nice. Not to go about flaming people like that. So why are we still doing this? Instead of badmouthing the western people, we should instead try to make them understand that what they are doing is wrong.

Think of it this way, suppose there are political parties. Now one party is democratic while the other is communist. Now, obvious the democratic party has the advantage due to its features so the democratic party and the communist party, CONSTANTLY badmouths each other but it is the democratic party who wants the communist party to stop bad mouthing about them.

Do you ACTUALLY believe the communist party will stop? No, the communists arent asking the democrats to stop bad mouthing them either so they have no obligations to keep going. But since the democrats want the communists to stop bad mouthing, the democrats should be the FIRST people to stop, and show the communists that they can be good people in order for the communists to stop their wrong doing.

In this case, we are the democrats, they are the communists. Our ideology and form of Government is greatly superior, but we are stooping down in the same level as them in order to badmouth. WE SHOULD STOP.

As long as we associate the western people with things like shallowness, sinful adultery, drugs, etc. The western people are not obligated to call us Muslims - terrorists.

If we want THEM to change, WE OURSELVES have to change first.

This is the point I am trying to make.

**ChOcCi** · 09-27-2009

Originally Posted by Rasema

Sweetness just makes you suffer.
They will never stop mocking Islam.

Rasema, I know ALOT of you feel this way as I know its not easy being poked and oppressed all the time by the non-believers. But we have to try. Have you heard of the story about the old lady who put thorns in front of Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) walk way way and hurt him?

Well, she used to do it everyday or something but Muhammad (pbuh) never showed her any disrespect or told her any harsh words. One day, that old lady fell VERY sick and when Muhammad (pbuh) learned of this, he himself went over to her house and took care of her and helped her recover and from that moment onwards, that lady completely stopped doing anything bad against Muhammad (pbuh) and im not sure about it, but I believe she probably converted into a Muslim later on.

These acts of kindness is what will prevail in the end. The time of the sword is gone and this is the age of diplomacy and to be honest, if we dont follow in Muhammad's (pbuh) path, we wont be able to accomplish much.

I hope this helps

**Rasema** · 09-27-2009

Rasema, I know ALOT of you feel this way as I know its not easy being poked and oppressed all the time by the non-believers. But we have to try. Have you heard of the story about the old lady who put thorns in front of Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) walk way way and hurt him?

Brother, I do appreciate that you are doing this for Islam. I have been for a quite time. Yes, we should be polite to pleople but what I'm against is"kiss ass" sorry I don't know a better word.

I do think that we should defend Islam. But some people misrepresent it by preaching ONLY the peaceful Islam.

I hope you know what I mean.

**ChOcCi** · 09-27-2009

Yes, as Muslim it is our DUTY to defend Islam and your turning your back on your religion if you dont do this, but we can chose not to retaliate cant we?

For example: In high school when bullies pick on "losers" and make fun of them, they can go on for a month, two months, maybe even three months. But if the "loser" NEVER says anything harshly to them and always stays respectful towards them, the bullies will eventually lose interest in bullying the kid as there is no fun in it anymore and they would leave.

Thing is, they are acting like bullies, but if we just use our heads to respond to them RESPECTFULLY rather than using our heart just to attack them back in the same way, it wont be helping anyone out in the end.

If a husband and a wife are having a dispute over something and both of them are VERY stubborn. Chances are, several months may pass and they still will refuse to talk to each other until one apologizes. And in the end, the marriage ends in disaster. Now even if both the wife was at fault, the husband was innocent (the wife doesnt want to understand this), just to save the marriage, the Husband can use his head to say sorry to his wife even though his feelings are telling him to do the opposite. In the end when the wife calms down, if the Husband sits down and has a matured and respectful discussion about what has happened the wife will understand (as she is calmed down now) and then chances are that she will apologize for her mistake.

Thats what we must do. Use our head and withdraw from the fight so that they will calm down and then we must slowly and nicely make them understand which way is the right path.

All it will do is anger us from within, but if we refrain from retaliating against them, in the end, it is Islam who will win.

**Rasema** · 09-27-2009

I don't desire to change the topic but I will reply.

Yes, as Muslim it is our DUTY to defend Islam and your turning your back on your religion if you dont do this, but we can chose not to retaliate cant we?

I defent Islam in a bitter way.Only when you approach in a disrespectful and ignorant manner.

For example: In high school when bullies pick on "losers" and make fun of them, they can go on for a month, two months, maybe even three months. But if the "loser" NEVER says anything harshly to them and always stays respectful towards them, the bullies will eventually lose interest in bullying the kid as there is no fun in it anymore and they would leave.

It's actually the opposite. They bully him because they're not afraid of him. As someone who attends high school, I know that the sweet way just does this: but this but that,,,and they go on. For example, when I started wearing the hijab that is what they would do. When I reply to them firmly:WE COVER BECAUSE IT IS A COMMAND IN THE QUR'AN AND WE FOLLOW THOSE COMMANDS O AND WHEN ALLAH COMMANDS WE DON'T QUESTION WE JUST FOLLOW. This shuts them up. But, If I start to pretend of being a scholar, a student I should say, they will just start to question util we get into an argument and so on...

If a husband and a wife are having a dispute over something and both of them are VERY stubborn. Chances are, several months may pass and they still will refuse to talk to each other until one apologizes. And in the end, the marriage ends in disaster. Now even if both the wife was at fault, the husband was innocent (the wife doesnt want to understand this), just to save the marriage, the Husband can use his head to say sorry to his wife even though his feelings are telling him to do the opposite. In the end when the wife calms down, if the Husband sits down and has a matured and respectful discussion about what has happened the wife will understand (as she is calmed down now) and then chances are that she will apologize for her mistake.

You can't compare our relations of a husband and a wife to our relations with strangers who are kaffirs.

**ChOcCi** · 09-27-2009

Originally Posted by Rasema

I don't desire to change the topic but I will reply.

I defent Islam in a bitter way.Only when you approach in a disrespectful and ignorant manner.

It's actually the opposite. They bully him because they're not afraid of him. As someone who attenda high schoo,l I know that the sweet way just does this: but this but that,,,and they go on. For example, when I started wearing the hijab that is what they would do. When I reply to them firmly:WE COVER BECAUSE IT IS A COMMAND IN THE qUR'AN AND WE FOLLOW THOSE COMMANDS O AND WHEN ALLAH COMMANDS WE DON'T QUESTION WE JUST FOLLOW. This shuts them up. But, If I start to pretend of being a scholar, a student I should say, they will just start to question util we get into an argument and so on...

You can't compare relations of a husband and a wife to our relations with strangers who are kaffirs.

*sigh*
I actually have been bullied like mad when I was younger at school and BELIEVE me, I know more about being bullied more than quite a lot of people.

My mom even FORCED me to go to a psychologist and we had long sessions about my problem at school. I know what works, what doesnt. If you display anger in response to their comments or if you fight back, they will get the kick out of it (i.e it is more fun when your opponent tries to fight back because no competition is no fun). Because I took the advice and remained friendly and respectful towards them, they learned to leave me alone and now after fighting for one and a half years or so, im actually enjoying quite a good social life in school now. Believe me, I know. My source? Go ask ANYONE who has been bullied before and had managed to come out of it. Kindness will prevail in the end.

And the relation between a husband and wife thing was just a way of showing you that using our head and showing them kindness in the end will cut it for us. They will see that we are good natured people and it is common knowledge that people dont pick on others who are respectful towards them.

This is why you see more people are against Christianity and Islam, than they are against a religion like Buddhism. Why? Because the Buddhists have made sure they avoid ALL sorts of harsh exchange of words with others. This is what we Muslims have failed to do. I know it isnt very nice to hear, but its the truth.

**Rasema** · 09-27-2009

Ahhhh

Well, in my case, bitter works better.

I'm off to bed.

**ChOcCi** · 09-27-2009

Originally Posted by Rasema

Ahhhh

Well, in my case, bitter works better.

I'm off to bed.

Bonds held together by respect are MUCH more powerful than bonds held together by fear.

If they respect you, they will genuinely want to help you. If they fear you, the MOMENT you lose your power over them, they will push you the ground and they will only help out of fear even though they dont want to.

Now, there are more non believers than there are Muslims so we are in no position to be "harsh" and make them fear us and EVEN if we do try and do this, we will come across as terrorists as we are trying to FORCE something upon them.

If we are kind, we shall gain the non-believers respect. They will understand that we dont mean to cause them harm and once they understand this, it will be easier for us to reach out to them and show them the light of Islam and they will willingly convert Inshallah.

We will only be doing this for Allah's (swt) sake by the way (for those who get itchy by the thought of being nice to a non-muslim).

Hope I am clear

**S_87** · 09-27-2009

Originally Posted by ChOcCi

Thing is, they are acting like bullies,

.

exactly. and you know those people who respect the bullies? they ar either the bullies side kicks who are scared of them or the ones that are bullied
but the ones who shows the bully where they belong? the one who spits in the bullies face and tells him where to go and is able to defend himself better than the bully can attack?

**ChOcCi** · 09-28-2009

Originally Posted by amani

exactly. and you know those people who respect the bullies? they ar either the bullies side kicks who are scared of them or the ones that are bullied
but the ones who shows the bully where they belong? the one who spits in the bullies face and tells him where to go and is able to defend himself better than the bully can attack?

wow, im sorry to have to get abit wrong sided again, but its attitudes like that which makes people think Muslims are violent..

All people can be shown respect, even if they are wrong or right.

Suppose a Church in Italy got a LARGE donation and when the mafia heard of this, they went to the Priest and told him that unless he gives up the money, they will murder his entire family. What will the priest do? Will he "spit in their faces and show them where they are" even though he believes that God will protect him nomatter what? No, even if he has the power to do so, he would not. Instead, he would kindly try to make them understand their mistake and he would respectfully ask them change their ways and chances are the mafia, out of counter respect for the pope, would leave the church alone. Now, Christian or not, most priests are good men and thats how good people should act.

Now, suppose you won a lottery and the maifa came to you and threatened you for the money.. Lets see how far you'd go by "spitting in their faces and showing them where they belong".

Now in both cases the "victims" arent scared of the "bully", but because of the way the priest behaved with the bullies, the priest was left alone, but the "spit in their faces" person wasnt very lucky unfortunately

Respect, kindness, theses are bigger virtues than violence, even if the latter was used to retaliate against someone else.

Im not saying we should not defend ourselves. But we should be careful with WHAT we attack them with because if we keep "spitting at each other's faces" we wont get ANYWHERE in this world.

Is this clear?

**S_87** · 09-28-2009

[QUOTE=ChOcCi;1226000]wow, im sorry to have to get abit wrong sided again, but its attitudes like that which makes people think Muslims are violent..[/quote
muslims arent violent but jihad does exist....

Suppose a Church in Italy got a LARGE donation and when the mafia heard of this, they went to the Priest and told him that unless he gives up the money, they will murder his entire family. What will the priest do? Will he "spit in their faces and show them where they are" even though he believes that God will protect him nomatter what? No, even if he has the power to do so, he would not. Instead, he would kindly try to make them understand their mistake and he would respectfully ask them change their ways and chances are the mafia, out of counter respect for the pope, would leave the church alone. Now, Christian or not, most priests are good men and thats how good people should act.

i disagree. if the leader of the mafia had gone to the church in the first place chances are he wouldnt give a **** as to what the pope had to say... now ill turn th q around. someone says im gonna harm you and your people. do you respectfully beg them not to? ok youve asked them not to. but they still do. so do you continue to say no n o dont kill until they kill you? or do you fight back as a form of self defence?

Now, suppose you won a lottery and the maifa came to you and threatened you for the money.. Lets see how far you'd go by "spitting in their faces and showing them where they belong".

exactly. the bully seeks a victim. it is WEAK to be the victim and let the bully win is that not so? and the person who stands up to a bully is hero. its better to die on ones feet than on the knees begging...

Respect, kindness, theses are bigger virtues than violence, even if the latter was used to retaliate against someone else.

i dont deny that. however physical self defence is an option. if the person threatens your life and your country is being invaded and your people being killed, really what do you think the person should do? speak respectfully to people who bombed your entire village? they dont understand the meaning of respect.

i hope i made myself clear

**ChOcCi** · 09-28-2009

[QUOTE=amani;1226087]

Originally Posted by ChOcCi

wow, im sorry to have to get abit wrong sided again, but its attitudes like that which makes people think Muslims are violent..[/quote
muslims arent violent but jihad does exist....

i disagree. if the leader of the mafia had gone to the church in the first place chances are he wouldnt give a **** as to what the pope had to say... now ill turn th q around. someone says im gonna harm you and your people. do you respectfully beg them not to? ok youve asked them not to. but they still do. so do you continue to say no n o dont kill until they kill you? or do you fight back as a form of self defence?

exactly. the bully seeks a victim. it is WEAK to be the victim and let the bully win is that not so? and the person who stands up to a bully is hero. its better to die on ones feet than on the knees begging...

i dont deny that. however physical self defence is an option. if the person threatens your life and your country is being invaded and your people being killed, really what do you think the person should do? speak respectfully to people who bombed your entire village? they dont understand the meaning of respect.

i hope i made myself clear

Either way, the priest would have higher chances of survival than the "spit on your face" person

hmm, so the way we BOTH described the bully (in this case happens to be the christians + jews), it seems that they are a much bigger force than the Muslims which is true in the real world right now.

So if they threaten to kill us, what would be the SMART thing to do? Be respectful and kindly ask them to settle it peacefully or "spit in their faces" and [s]become a hero? to who exactly?[/s] once again get displayed as terrorists by the media?

If we followed you, we would be controlled by our RAW emotions, and its obvious you're the type of person who would leap before you look. If you would simply use your head in this situation and to be honest, I do that a lot too myself, but I know that its not right. Being respectful and avoiding violence would be the right path to chose. Bloodshed is not glorified in Islam and add to that, the latter word is derived from the word "peace".

If you ask me, if I was outnumbered, out gunned, out everythinged like this, id actually chose to "beg on my knees" because a hurt pride doesnt give me the power to sacrifice the lives of all my people. Even if it kills my reputation and I dont come across as a hero, id still beg to save my people. What would you do? Be a "hero"?

Like I said, if you fight back, you might come across as a hero to your people, but your number of enemies will drastically increase. If you settle it diplomatically, you can cross a name out from your enemies list..

Brain or brawn, ill let you decide that one

**S_87** · 09-28-2009

Either way, the priest would have higher chances of survival than the "spit on your face" person

Allahu alam, lets take the common school bully, the guy who spits in his face wont be bullied, the guy who hands over his pocket money will be.

hmm, so the way we BOTH described the bully (in this case happens to be the christians + jews), it seems that they are a much bigger force than the Muslims which is true in the real world right now.

So if they threaten to kill us, what would be the SMART thing to do? Be respectful and kindly ask them to settle it peacefully or "spit in their faces" and become a hero? to who exactly?

once again get displayed as terrorists by the media?

as muslims we are not in need of the media or even money. if muslims are gonna be threatened by others just because we are muslims then this is something we already know happened in the past. what did the salaf do? they fought and cast terror into the hearts of their enemies. they showed the enemies. they knew that had they kept quiet they would have been crushed by ants. and by them showing force, they put respect into the hearts of the same enemies that were attacking them. they bowed and feared none but Allah.

If we followed you, we would be controlled by our RAW emotions, and its obvious you're the type of person who would leap before you look. If you would simply use your head in this situation and to be honest, I do that a lot too myself, but I know that its not right. Being respectful and avoiding violence would be the right path to chose. Bloodshed is not glorified in Islam and add to that, the latter word is derived from the word "peace".

of course it would be ideal if there was no blood shed. but this world isnt ideal. people are dying as we speak. of course violence shouldnt be asked for. but if someone attacks you do you defend yourself yes or no?

If you ask me, if I was outnumbered, out gunned, out everythinged like this, id actually chose to "beg on my knees" because a hurt pride doesnt give me the power to sacrifice the lives of all my people. Even if it kills my reputation and I dont come across as a hero, id still beg to save my people. What would you do? Be a "hero"?

if youre fighting for your deen youre not fighting for yourself. the muslims in badr were not only out numbered by around 3 to 1 but also very ill equipped. but they had something far more powerful, trust and faith in Allah. who won?

again i ask you, if your town was attacked what would you do? the time for talking will obviously have gone.

**Karl** · 09-29-2009

Originally Posted by amani

Allahu alam, lets take the common school bully, the guy who spits in his face wont be bullied, the guy who hands over his pocket money will be.

as muslims we are not in need of the media or even money. if muslims are gonna be threatened by others just because we are muslims then this is something we already know happened in the past. what did the salaf do? they fought and cast terror into the hearts of their enemies. they showed the enemies. they knew that had they kept quiet they would have been crushed by ants. and by them showing force, they put respect into the hearts of the same enemies that were attacking them. they bowed and feared none but Allah.

of course it would be ideal if there was no blood shed. but this world isnt ideal. people are dying as we speak. of course violence shouldnt be asked for. but if someone attacks you do you defend yourself yes or no?

if youre fighting for your deen youre not fighting for yourself. the muslims in badr were not only out numbered by around 3 to 1 but also very ill equipped. but they had something far more powerful, trust and faith in Allah. who won?

again i ask you, if your town was attacked what would you do? the time for talking will obviously have gone.

Good post ...don't listen to the cowards... the only thing to fear is Allah and Allah hates wimps...you know the old saying "The meek shall inherit the earth"
simple meaning ...the weak will die and be put in the ground.
Never give up and never give in and if your gonna die, die with your boots on! The westerners hate Muslims 'cos they have guts. Don't sell out to those western brigans.

**ChOcCi** · 09-29-2009

lol I become a coward by trying to solve our issues? MAJOR ones infact..

Amani, the person who hands over his pocket money will keep getting bullied, but the person who spits in the bullies faces will get beaten up to trash.

I know that your a perfectly good person at heart and you only want to do the right thing, but your problem is that you completely shut yourself out from anything that contradicts your beliefs and you dont want to listen.

We should not fear anyone but Allah, thats right. But that doesnt mean we should go sacrifice our own people just in order to satisfy our blazing desire for revenge.

Ever heard of Confucius? He was a great man was he not? What he taught, contradicts EVERY SINGLE thing you are saying.. Whose advice should we listen to then? Yours, or his?

So, if all the "other religion countries" starts a dispute with all the "muslim" countries, and suppose you were the leader of all of us, would you "spit in their faces" and go to war against them despite being ridiculously outnumbered or will you settle the matter peacefully with respectful words that will avoid any unnecessary bloodshed?

Yes, Allah is ALWAYS with us, but one thing you dont get is that Allah will help us when we have no choice let, but he wont come in and intervene if we are losing the war due to our own stupid mistake which was to chose to go into war against such odds in the first place when the war could have easily been avoided.

Look at Palestine. Why havent they crushed the Israelis yet? Please, do tell me.
Forget that, the way the jews are bullying Palestine, why in the hell are you not standing on the Palestine front lines "spitting on the Israelis faces"? Im willing to make the change and try and show the non believers with respect, which way is the right way. Are you willing to talk less and get yourself on the Palestine fronts and spit in the Israelis faces? I think not.

It seems to me, your only arguing here because you want to contradict me. Thats all because I have no idea why you would rate violence over kindness and respect. Just tell me, whats WRONG with what im trying to convey in my message? Im not asking you guys to "submit to their will" or to "kiss behinds". All I am asking is that you treat the western people with a little more respect and I promise you this, at one point or the other, respect is always returned to the person who gave it. Do this for Allah's sake as it will decrease our enemies and will help people open their minds to Islam. Seems to me that you guys care more about your emotions than helping Islam. Is that right?

**GuestFellow** · 09-29-2009

I'm curious what are we arguing about? O_o

**S_87** · 09-29-2009

Originally Posted by ChOcCi

lol I become a coward by trying to solve our issues? MAJOR ones infact..

Amani, the person who hands over his pocket money will keep getting bullied, but the person who spits in the bullies faces will get beaten up to trash.

not if he fights back.

We should not fear anyone but Allah, thats right. But that doesnt mean we should go sacrifice our own people just in order to satisfy our blazing desire for revenge.

whos spaking of revenge atm?
im talking about self defense. should a person have the right to defend themselves or not?

Ever heard of Confucius? He was a great man was he not? What he taught, contradicts EVERY SINGLE thing you are saying.. Whose advice should we listen to then? Yours, or his?

ever heard of Umar ibn Khattab or Khalid bin Waleed? their very names were a nightmare and a call of respect from their enemies.

So, if all the "other religion countries" starts a dispute with all the "muslim" countries, and suppose you were the leader of all of us, would you "spit in their faces" and go to war against them despite being ridiculously outnumbered or will you settle the matter peacefully with respectful words that will avoid any unnecessary bloodshed?

hypothetically speaking the *ideal* thing would be:
if they started a war with the muslims then they dont want to speak. they dont care what i would have to say. they want war. So i would enjoin the people to fear Allah, follow the Deen and i would tell the people that the people they are fighting with love death as they love life. and place my trust in Allah and hope for a miracle. Look at the taliban. loads of nations are against them, even some so called muslim nations. did that stop them? have they been defeated? have those nations with all their technology found one man? look at the battle of ahzab. the muslims suffered. they were betrayed by their allies. what happened? didnt Allah help them?

Yes, Allah is ALWAYS with us, but one thing you dont get is that Allah will help us when we have no choice let, but he wont come in and intervene if we are losing the war due to our own stupid mistake which was to chose to go into war against such odds in the first place when the war could have easily been avoided.

agreed. and i dont call for war. im saying people should have a right to defend themselves.

Look at Palestine. Why havent they crushed the Israelis yet? Please, do tell me.

the palestinian cause (should be) a muslim cause. Al Aqsa is for the muslims not for palestine. palestine is all of our cause. why are we losing? because we arent united on the Quran and Sunnah

Forget that, the way the jews are bullying Palestine, why in the hell are you not standing on the Palestine front lines "spitting on the Israelis faces"? Im willing to make the change and try and show the non believers with respect, which way is the right way. Are you willing to talk less and get yourself on the Palestine fronts and spit in the Israelis faces? I think not.

indeed, why arent we all supporting our brothers? truly Muhammed

had said this would happen, with wahn in our hearts.

It seems to me, your only arguing here because you want to contradict me.

i couldnt care less about contradicting you or not. and could say the same to you

Thats all because I have no idea why you would rate violence over kindness and respect.

again i will say. i am not saying violence is the only thing. i am saying Self defense is legit.

Just tell me, whats WRONG with what im trying to convey in my message? Im not asking you guys to "submit to their will" or to "kiss behinds". All I am asking is that you treat the western people with a little more respect and I promise you this, at one point or the other, respect is always returned to the person who gave it. Do this for Allah's sake as it will decrease our enemies and will help people open their minds to Islam. Seems to me that you guys care more about your emotions than helping Islam. Is that right?

no it isnt right. i dont treat non muslims unrespectfully. HOWEVER if there are enemies of islam killing my brothers and sisters then im not gonna be their best friend. having said that just because for example, i hate the american govt, i dont hate american civilians. theres a difference.

now i ask you, wherever you live, if another country were to invade your country because they have a problem with your way of life, they bombed schools, killed children and raped women. what would YOU do? ask them nicely to stop?

**ChOcCi** · 10-01-2009

not if he fights back.

Didnt we already decide on the fact that us Muslims are outnumbered? When outnumbered 3:1, the victim WILL lose if he tries to fight back.

whos spaking of revenge atm?
im talking about self defense. should a person have the right to defend themselves or not?

I NEVER SAID we should not defend ourselves. I said that there are many forms of defense but you probably never even heard of the term "verbal defense".

Tell me, if the christians insulted Muhammad (pbuh), would he insult back? If the Christians threw tomatoes at him, would he throw the tomatoes back? When the old lady put thorns on Muhammad's (pbuh) way, did he attack back? Instead, in all these cases, Muhammad (pbuh) would have made these offenders understand that they are doing wrong, with KIND RESPECTFUL words but the way your speaking, it seems that your against what Muhammad (pbuh) would have done.

If Muhammad always chose the wise way to trying to make them understand, why should we not try and achieve that sunnah by doing the same?

But if ALL fails, I do agree that we should take up arms to defend ourselves. But truth be told, we never took the time to make the christians understand. Communication was hard in those days, so people could not reach out to the entire world and thus even the smallest of things meant that nations would break out in war. But we have phones, internet, EVERYTHING in todays world. Why dont we use these gifts Allah has granted us and use them to spread the truth instead of creating a false image of Islam like what the Talibans seem to do.

now i ask you, wherever you live, if another country were to invade your country because they have a problem with your way of life, they bombed schools, killed children and raped women. what would YOU do? ask them nicely to stop?

YES, like Muhammad, I will try and be nice to them at first asking them to back off by trying to make them understand their mistake. If they refuse to listen, then I OBVIOUSLY will take up arms. But unlike you, i wont blindly go into war when there is an option of achieving peace.

by the way, the example you just gave, it was perfect example of your beloved Taliban.. You actually believe that Allah will support terrorists like them? Ah well, its not my place to say what Allah will or will not do, but what I know of Him, He will NOT support terrorists over innocents dying at their hands for no reason.

indeed, why arent we all supporting our brothers? truly Muhammed had said this would happen, with wahn in our hearts.

Then why are you sitting here on the internet all day? Go ahead, take up arms. Do you have the guts to back up your words about fighting back? Your brothers are being oppressed. Lets see if you truly meant what you said all this time and go to war (in your special own violent way

) against the Israelis.. Lets see if you can prove me wrong.

**S_87** · 10-01-2009

Originally Posted by ChOcCi

Didnt we already decide on the fact that us Muslims are outnumbered? When outnumbered 3:1, the victim WILL lose if he tries to fight back.

not necessarily. i gave you the badr example.

I NEVER SAID we should not defend ourselves. I said that there are many forms of defense but you probably never even heard of the term "verbal defense".

when someones killing you, youre gonna use words?

Tell me, if the christians insulted Muhammad (pbuh), would he insult back? If the Christians threw tomatoes at him, would he throw the tomatoes back? When the old lady put thorns on Muhammad's (pbuh) way, did he attack back? Instead, in all these cases, Muhammad (pbuh) would have made these offenders understand that they are doing wrong, with KIND RESPECTFUL words but the way your speaking, it seems that your against what Muhammad (pbuh) would have done.

When the people of makkah said they are gathering an army against him what did he do when talks were done? he

prepared and looked at war strategies because theres a time for talking and theres a time when talking is just in vain.

If Muhammad always chose the wise way to trying to make them understand, why should we not try and achieve that sunnah by doing the same?

because theres time for both. im not saying that talking is not an option. im saying so is war.

But if ALL fails, I do agree that we should take up arms to defend ourselves. But truth be told, we never took the time to make the christians understand. Communication was hard in those days, so people could not reach out to the entire world and thus even the smallest of things meant that nations would break out in war. But we have phones, internet, EVERYTHING in todays world. Why dont we use these gifts Allah has granted us and use them to spread the truth instead of creating a false image of Islam like what the Talibans seem to do.

because A we dont know whats true and whats propaganda and B some of what the west shows about them as 'bad' is actually within islam.

YES, like Muhammad, I will try and be nice to them at first asking them to back off by trying to make them understand their mistake. If they refuse to listen, then I OBVIOUSLY will take up arms. But unlike you, i wont blindly go into war when there is an option of achieving peace.

and when did i say i would blindly go into war?

by the way, the example you just gave, it was perfect example of your beloved Taliban.. You actually believe that Allah will support terrorists like them? Ah well, its not my place to say what Allah will or will not do, but what I know of Him, He will NOT support terrorists over innocents dying at their hands for no reason.

i think theres a difference between terrorists and mujahideen

Then why are you sitting here on the internet all day? Go ahead, take up arms. Do you have the guts to back up your words about fighting back? Your brothers are being oppressed. Lets see if you truly meant what you said all this time and go to war (in your special own violent way

) against the Israelis.. Lets see if you can prove me wrong.

why are u sitting on the internet all day instead of going and talking? go to afghanistan/palestine and talk the soldiers out of killing civilians

**ChOcCi** · 10-02-2009

Your acting drunk and your only taking PARTS of my sentences, twisting those words in your favor and then using it against me. Howcome you keep on leaving out the parts in my posts where I back up those "quoted statements" and the parts where I make a solid point to validate my previous claims in my post and you chose to completely avoid the point and instead respond to my claims with your SAME OLD arguments when you know that I already answered your points in my previous important posts.

This can be seen in your "self defense" argument where it is clear that I already mentioned SEVERAL times before that "if all else fails, then we should go to war" and the post where I said that "I NEVER SAID we should not defend ourselves, but there are many forms of defense...." (summarized quote). For both of my two quotes, you ignored the last parts.

Your "when did I say I will bindly go to war?" argument was also a poor question as I already stated many times over that "we should consider peace first, THEN IF that fails, we chose war" but you simply chose to ignore this fact and argued on about how my "peace talks logic is wrong and we should defend ourselves". This means that you did not agree with my post that "peace talks first, war later" as you kept arguing against my posts and thus it is posts that you would blindly go to war without considering peace even if we were outnumbered. If you really DID agree that "we should try for peace first, if that fails, THEN war", you would not have argued against this subject in the first place, YET you still did.

There is also the "badr" example you gave and later reinforced it later on whereas I already SAID that "Allah will only help us if we are left without any choice and forced into war, but it is less likely that Allah will help us if we go to war blindly without choosing to ask for peace first against enemies who clearly outnumber us. It was a mistake that we chose war over peace so chances are that Allah will not help us very much here because WE are the ones who made the mistake by forgoing peace and putting MANY people's lives on the line against unimaginable odds so we deserve to pay for our mistakes." This means that in badr, the muslims had fought when out of choice, whereas the the situation we are discussing (non believers terrorizing us while outnumbering us 3:1) you gave off the impression that it is wrong to discuss peace with the attackers and we should go to war against them immediately without aiming for peace as displayed by this post - "when someones killing you, youre gonna use words?" which clearly contradicts your other post "and when did i say i would blindly go into war?" and thus giving points to my argument that you would not consider peace over war.

When the people of makkah said they are gathering an army against him what did he do when talks were done? he prepared and looked at war strategies because theres a time for talking and theres a time when talking is just in vain.

here talks of peace did not work as Muhammad (pbuh) DID try but they would not listen and were marching in to fight. If an army is running towards you to kill you, when will you get the TIME to talk peace? Thus he had to take up arms as peace talks had ALREADY failed previously.

There are SOO many more incidents like this happened during the previous phase of our argument but, but I will stop here as to be honest, I did not show you all the above instances to make you look bad, but I did it to make the point that you chose to leave out my IMPORTANT points which backs up ALL my previous points and then you go on flaming my "previous points" as if I never even made that "important point" before.

As you can see, I countered most of your recent arguments with ONE SINGLE statement (which you blatantly avoided):

But if ALL fails, I do agree that we should take up arms to defend ourselves.

This proves my claim that "you are arguing here not to show me the right path, but to contradict me" and therefore, it also means that you fall under the category of people who "showcases the poor qualities of the non believers when they are doing wrong NOT to correct them, but to criticize them and make them look bad. This in turn makes the non believers hate us and adds to the huge number of enemies Muslims already have." If you were trying to correct me, you would not have acted THIS oblivious to my backing points throughout our conversation and you would have tried to properly show me where I was wrong and you would hve talked to me like you were trying to help me out of my "hole". You did not.

"Your not trying to prove yourself right, ALL your doing is trying to prove me wrong, think about it." When I mentioned something like this earlier, you replied with "I can say the same thing about you" but tell me honestly, have I not tried to make you understand my points and did I not give reason and examples for most of my statements? Have you done the same for me? The answer for the latter question would be negative. Ill leave it to you to decide whether or not have I tried.

Amani, if you will completely shut out your ears and refuse to listen to a single word I say and in the meantime, blindly shout out your own beliefs at me, theres nothing more I can do for you here. If your gonna keep acting like this, then I will accept defeat and back out of this argument as I dont believe I have extra ordinary powers which will make people like you listen to the other side for once.

Yes, I do admit I lost my patience with you at the end and flamed you (indirectly) which partially contradicts my statements of "responding to flaming with respectful words in order to make the enemy understand their mistake" and I apologize to have not been able to uphold that belief of mine at the end. But none of you can say I did not try. In order to defend myself and not get called a hypocrite, I will quote a familiar post of mine and ill see if you guys can relate:

But if ALL fails, I do agree that we should take up arms to defend ourselves.

I used this quote (once AGAIN) to tell you guys that I tried quite enough to make her understand but if she will simply refuse to listen, I cannot do much about it so I had no choice but to have to resort to indirectly flame her like this to show her what she is doing is wrong. I really had no other choice.

Amani, please do us both a favor and not humiliate us both further by replying to me and block me to aid this cause. You really are persistent and if you wont give me a chance, I cant win, so go ahead, claim your "victory". This conversation is over.

**ChOcCi** · 10-02-2009

Im sorry for my messy and in-comprehensive message up there as I should have worked on it ABIT better :/

Ah well, one thing I realized from this argument is that maybe a lot of us DID try in the past to make the non believers understand their mistake with respectful words and none of those worked so we had simply lost our patience with them over time.

But guys, the times have changed, and with the great advances in communication, we have a chance to do what our ancestors could not (due to the difficulty in communication in those days) and thus we must try and lose our frustration towards them and be kind and respectful to them to see if they understand their mistakes, even a little bit.

Well, I do admit that maybe some minor (maybe even major ones) points of mine were flawed throughout the argument, but I believe my heart was at the right place and I fought for whats right which is to try and achieve peace over war. If we can manage this peace with the non believers, Islam wont have this many enemies anymore and people will actually give Islam a chance to touch their hearts and show them the true way to get closer to Allah.

But please guys, id like to hear more opinions on this.. still, it upsets me that most of you dont like the idea of "being nice" to arrogant people JUST to help them achieve the right path. But if we do this, we will not only help humanity, but we will also help Islam.Think about it.