Family converted to Islam without me...

format_quote Originally Posted by Vigno

Peace David

How about you try to listen to them sincerely? There's nothing to lose right?

I have no issue listening to them when they talk ABOUT Islam. I am not adverse to learning more about it. But as far as joining them on their "journey" or whatever, I can't see any conceivable way that I would ever feel that way about Islam or any other religion. And I don't know what else I should really be doing? What am I supposed to listen to?

format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77

hmm, your family shouldn't break up communication with you because you chose not to convert, your family ties should remain the same with them, if its them who are breaking ties then remind them of this obligation

ofcourse you still have things in common, islam might make up a big part of their life but you can still talk about whatever you used to before, you're still family

about your brother, yes its forbidden to have pre-marital relationships - pretty sure its the same in judaism? - so as a muslim he either had the choice to marry her or forget her, maybe they were unable to get married for whatever reasons?

also have you tried looking into islam since they converted? maybe showing an interest might get them to calm down on you

Thanks for your response, aadil77. In all honesty, I think I'm the one pulling back from them. I know its not right, but it doesn't feel as if there is much to say, and any discussion inevitably leads back to Islam. As I'm sure you're aware, Islam (as is the case with devout followers of any religion) is not JUST a religion, but a lifestyle. Their lifestyle used to be rather similar to mine and because of that, we had much in common. But religions change the way you see the world, and change your behavior. And it seems that half the stuff I do is Haraam.

RE: my brother and marriage in general, if you can't date and have a girlfriend/boyfriend, how are you supposed to find someone to marry? It sounds counter-productive.

I'm fascinated by lots of religions, but more from an academic standpoint. I'm sure my parents would LOVE for me to show interest in Islam and potentially convert, but frankly, I'm highly resistant to that notion. And it has nothing to do with any particular feelings towards Islam... following any religion too closely seems to contradict everything I know.

format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106

^ He never said he was a practising Jew.

Congrats to your family. Ameen to dua.

OP speak to your family about how you feel and mention that there is no compulsion in Islam. If you were to accept Islam, you should only do it for sake of Allah (swt) not your family.

Yes, correct. I'm not a practicing Jew. I understand that I can't convert out of compulsion. That would be silly on several levels.

format_quote Originally Posted by S_87

They are you mother and father, they will push islam on you as it is their duty even more so than the average person on the street. you say youre a jew. i dunno what you believe, but im sure you belive non jews will go to hell right? well, anyone who doesnt believe in Allah as the only one worthy of worship and Muhammed peace and blessing be upon him as the messenger of Allah is doomed. can you see what burden your parents have to try and convert you to save you? dont push them off, let them speak, they arent being aggressive are they? they are only looking out for your wellbeing

and what u said about ur bro and his girlfriend, pre marital relationships are forbidden

Hi, and thanks for your response. I understand that their goal is to "help" me. I don't question that. I simply don't want that kind of help. And just to clarify your comment about Jews, I think the vast majority of Jews aren't even believers in hell. And it stands to reason that people would not be condemned to hell simply for being a different religion. I don't believe non-Jews in general, or Muslims specifically are going to hell.

format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565

I have no issue listening to them when they talk ABOUT Islam. I am not adverse to learning more about it. But as far as joining them on their "journey" or whatever, I can't see any conceivable way that I would ever feel that way about Islam or any other religion. And I don't know what else I should really be doing? What am I supposed to listen to?

Earlier you made the analogy to a steak eater who has become a vegetarian. While some may not see the parallel, I think you've come up with a good illustration. Another might be the former smoker who quits. My experiece is that the convert is often much more aggressive in promoting their new found faith, truth, even favorite band than the person who grew up with it. I once had a friend aggressively try to steer me into martial arts because she had found it and it had made such a difference in her life; she treated it like a religion. What you might try is to say to them as plainly as you have here: "I am not adverse to learning more about it. But as far as joining them on their 'journey' or whatever, I can't see any conceivable way that I would ever feel that way about Islam or any other religion." The point is not that you reject them (or even Islam for that matter) but that you are establishing the boundaries of your life and the context in which you are comfortable having the conversation that is so important to them. But frankly, if they are truly sincere in their new found faith (be it Islam or any other religion) don't be surprised if they never loose their enthusiasm. I've been a Christian 37 years and I still haven't lost my enthusiasm for it. What I have done is learned to moderate the manner in which I present myself to others in order to continue relationships that are important to me. And don't be misled. If you family does this, and I hope/expect they will. It won't be because they have any less desire to see you "join them on their journey", but because they understand that they can't let a wall develop between you and them if they ever want to see you take the steps toward them necessary to make that journey.

So, can this work out to a place of comfortability between you and your family? Certainly. But for it to work, it will require your love for each other to be big enough to accept the differences that exist and learning how to live respecting those differences. And that means that you can't expect things to go back to the way they were before. There is a change that has taken place. It is a real change, and thus there is no going back because you are no longer in the same place that you once were. But you can go forward. And in going forward you can find (and even enjoy) your new relationship. At first it won't seem normal because it isn't what you are used to. But just because it is different doesn't mean it has to be bad. That, again, is for you as a family to work on. It will take time, but given that time (it won't take 37 years, but it will take more than 5-6 months) I new normal will develop and as it does I expect a certain level of comfortablity will emerge.

format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565

Thanks for your response, aadil77. In all honesty, I think I'm the one pulling back from them. I know its not right, but it doesn't feel as if there is much to say, and any discussion inevitably leads back to Islam. As I'm sure you're aware, Islam (as is the case with devout followers of any religion) is not JUST a religion, but a lifestyle. Their lifestyle used to be rather similar to mine and because of that, we had much in common. But religions change the way you see the world, and change your behavior. And it seems that half the stuff I do is Haraam.

David, it is good that you can see that you might be the one pulling back. Though the impetus for this discomfort might have to do with your family's new found faith. The process of addressing your concerns really aren't as much about religion (and I say this knowing that Islam is, as you say, not just a religion but a lifestyle), but about inter-personal and family dynamics. Recognize that some of that is in your control, and some of it is not. I would encourage you to work on that which you can. Learn not only to be internally tolerant, but to externally practice tolerance. Accept what you can. As I said, I am a Christian, not a Muslim. But when my Muslim daughter is in the house during Ramadan, I keep all aspects of Ramadan right along with her -- prayers, fasting, giving to charity, everything except saying the Shahada -- for none of this is against my own beliefs. On the other hand, I do have to draw some boundaries because Islam and Christianity are different. And since you don't seem to have any faith in a divine being, you're going to have differences as well. Ask your family to not only recognize that these differences exist, but to honor you enough that they can respect that this is what you have chosen for yourself. Thank them for caring enough about you and your eternal destinty that they want to do all they can to lead you into the truth (and remember it is the one and only truth from where they are coming from), but then help them to see that their manner of doing so is actually being counter productive. If they really want to reach you with this new found truth advise them on ways that you will be more comfortable in hearing it. Encourage them to do more praying for you, but less proselytizing of you. And help them to see that if you see this new found faith to actually become not just a short term experience, but a long-term blessing of their life, that it is likely to carry more weight and to lead you to seek the same thing for your life in the long-term than any argument that they could make in the short-term.

The above I share with you from the perspective of one who has had to counsel people experiencing the enthusiasm you say your family is demonstrating. I'm not just a Christian, I am also a pastor. And many a member of my congregations have shared their grief with regard to other family members who don't have the faith they have. And while I have no problem with the basic idea of sharing one's faith, I find that there are productive and unproductive ways to do that. In a sense, I hope your family never gives up in sharing their new found faith with you, for the essence of loving another is to share the good things we find that benefit our lives. But I also understand that you and they need to find a way for them to do this that maintains the cohesiveness of your family while they do this. Again, my experience is that this comes through learning tolerance of differences, clearly knowing who one's self is and defining that person independent of the group (which means establishing and respecting boundaries), but also showing a willingness to engage each other communicating about those things which are important in life yet doing so in a way that grants the sort of space those boundaries require. It is a balancing act. And one that changes with each step, not just in their faith journey, but also in each of our life journies. And recognize it or not, like it or not, none of our lives are static, including your own.

This was an epic post, Grace Seeker. Thank you very much. I think trying to establish these new boundaries would be a good place to start. Obviously, being abrasive at the beginning didn't work, and ignoring them doesn't seem to work either. I did want to draw attention to one thing you said though:

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

And don't be misled. If you family does this, and I hope/expect they will. It won't be because they have any less desire to see you "join them on their journey", but because they understand that they can't let a wall develop between you and them if they ever want to see you take the steps toward them necessary to make that journey.

Isn't this a little... underhanded? Ideally, they should accept me for who I am, and make things work (and yes, I know its a two way street), rather than accept me in the hopes of STILL getting me to join them when my guard is down.

The second half of your post was also interesting. The thought of joining in these activities when I'm with them hadn't exactly occurred to me. I'm not crazy about the praying idea, but its not like I CAN'T do it for fear of offending my own God. Generally, I would really just be going through the motions, and not really be into it, but that would be a way of appeasing them, maybe.

(Just out of curiosity, did you convert to Christianity, or did your daughter convert to Islam?)

The thing that most concerns me is my brother's behavior. I know I have to wait for a new "normal" in our relationship, but it seems that Islam has put up a wall between everything that we used to do together that was fun. Short list, off the top of my head:

- Can't listen to music in the car or at home.
- Can't go to movies that have supposed anti-muslim antics or vulgarity, or violence.
- Can't play video games because they contain vulgarities, nudity, music, etc.
- Can't go to the beach because there are women there.
- Can't have a dog in the house. (We got a dog when the dog was 3 months old. She is now 13 years old. She's known us her entire life, and my family tried to give her away without me knowing because dogs are unclean! Now the dog lives with me....)

Sometimes all of those things just build up in me and I get really pissed. Especially the dog thing. Under those circumstances, its difficult for me to be understanding and willfully join in these activities, even if it would be going through the motions.

I understand how things like the dog could piss you off. Here's the thing, you were right when you said

format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565

Ideally, they should accept me for who I am, and make things work

They should. That is one reality. Yours and mine. But they live in a different reality than ours. And like you also said, "I know its a two way street." Part of the idea of establishing boundaries is to know which side of the street you are walking down at the time. You seem to have found a good solution with regard to the dog -- he is in your house and not theirs. What other things can you approach that way?

And just to confuse you even more, neither my daughter nor I converted. She was born and raised Muslim, and my wife and I were both born and raised Christian. She came to live in our home as an exchange student. Though that was now nearly a decade ago, she continues to refer to my wife and me as "mom" and "dad", and we are welcomed in her home by her biological parents as her (and even their) American family. And, just because it might make a difference in understanding how this is more of a family and personality dynamic you are experiencing than a religious issue for you, the only one who tries to convert us is not any family member, but a very loving neighbor who is treated as an aunt in much the same way that we are also family.

I can understand that as they are new converts they want to do everything "right". Maybe they'll ease up at some point. Who knows. But as of now, it seems they're quite serious about their religious practices.

But, with all due respect, aadil, I don't get it. I honestly don't get any of it. Perhaps you can shed some light on it for me. My point of view on these issues is all pretty much the same, except for the dog: It seems to me that Islam is quite concerned with people's behavior and their frame of mind. It seems that simply exposing someone to something that is not ideal can "corrupt" them. The way I see it, it isn't so much the things you expose yourself to, but what you do AFTER you've been exposed. For example, if I play a game like Grand Theft Auto (awesome game), and I go around town blowing people's heads off, sure its violent. But under no circumstances would I think that I should do this in the REAL world. One should be able to separate fantasy from reality. If one listens to music that has curses or a beat or whatever, that doesn't mean that those lyrics become words to live by, nor does it mean that someone who enjoys a good melody is any more detached from god.

As for the "dogs are dirty" thing, I can't even figure it out.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just sharing my perspective on these things. To me, it comes down to choice and human beings can make good ones or bad ones, regardless of their exposure.

Aadil, thank you for your patience and explanation. I honestly didn't think it was possible, but I must admit that your explanations did make sense on a certain level. What you said about music is true; in a way it can influence one's behavior. I find that to be one of the attractive qualities of music, but I understand that if your focus is supposed to be on god, then it can be quite a distraction. (But I am pretty sure that a lot of christian churches play music during services). Regarding dogs, I thought it would have something to do with them going outdoors, which didn't make much sense, considering the frequency with which people go outdoors.

The Vale's Lily, I grant you that I have a very limited pool of knowledge, and perhaps my thinking is a bit linear in this regard, because it is what I know and what I am most familiar with. It would stand to reason that I would use that philosophy and try to attribute it to other things. However, I am trying to understand why these things are the way they are, in the hopes of finding answers similar to the ones Aadil gave me. I may not agree with them all, but finding practical and rational explanations is always helpful.

Thank you both.

format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565

What you said about music is true; in a way it can influence one's behavior. I find that to be one of the attractive qualities of music, but I understand that if your focus is supposed to be on god, then it can be quite a distraction. (But I am pretty sure that a lot of christian churches play music during services).

Yes we do. But we use it in just the way that aadil expresses concern about. We use it to help carry the message. Now, I find that a plus with regard to music and that it helps me to focus on God. But if one had the view that aadil has expressed, then any music, even that which carried a "good" message might be something that one would want to avoid.

Btw, though you're family seems to be of the "no music' views which also dominates in this forum, you will also find that there are sincere and faithful Muslims who don't entirely agree with that particular understanding. And while it is a definite minority (almost absent) on this particular forum, music is more common in Islam than your family or this forum might lead you to think.

LOL. Borat was so funny. I think the problem with these christians goes far beyond listening to music though.

format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77

Lol no problem, I was actually going to mention the music in churches bit

this vid should demonstrate what happens when you mix music with religion...

HAHAHA!! I never went to see Borat. I knew the movie was a lampoon of all sorts of things, churches included. But I got to admit he seemed to get the pentecostal variety down pretty well. Yes, that actually is a demonstration of what can (not necessarily will) happen when you mix music with religion. Here is another example: