Islam has copied (say the Christians and the Jews)

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

How can you prove such a point and where in the Qu'ran or Bible does it say that a prophet can never be be sinner?



I have read the Qu'ran many times though not in Arabic. Its not just me that has a problem there are 2 billions Christians and I don't know how many atheists would laugh at both of us. The point I suppose is that because YOU believe it is a perfect message does not make it so does it?

I don't quite know how one would define a perfect message and if we could it would only be our definition so I don't see much of a way forward there and no doubt we would define it in a way that suited out own preconceptions. For example, the Qu'ran says a man can have 4 wives and sexual relations with his slave girls in Q4:3 - well for the life of me I cannot see why that is a perfect message - can you explain it? Or why in Q33:37 we have this teaching about marriage to ones adopted sons ex wife - why is this perfect?

To me these 'oddities' seem proof of other than divine authorship, do they not look like that to you or perhaps you have other 'proofs'

lol i should have mentioned "christians" or "athiests" then silly me , would that be fine with you?

Actually im not going to sit and explain anything else, yes a man can have 4 wives, comparing your bible where prophets had "many" wives, can you explain that to me?

See Genesis 4:19, as far as i remember Solomon had 700 wives see Kings chapter 11 verse 3, many more which im not gonna mention right now.

This is what the Noble Quraan says: 'Marry woman of your choice in twos' threes' or fours' but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly, (with them), then only one' [Al-Qur'an 4:3]


And to your Q about marriage to ones adopted sons ex wife, theres a thread regarding that, where it can explain in detail to you!

"And (remember) when you said to him (Zaid bin Harithah) the freedslave of the Prophet SAW) on whom Allah has bestowed Grace (by guiding him to Islam) and you (O Muhammad SAW too) have done favour (by manumitting him) \"Keep your wife to yourself, and fear Allah.\" But you did hide in yourself (i.e. what Allah has already made known to you that He will give her to you in marriage) that which Allah will make manifest, you did fear the people (i.e., Muhammad SAW married the divorced wife of his manumitted slave) whereas Allah had a better right that you should fear Him. So when Zaid had accomplished his desire from her (i.e. divorced her), We gave her to you in marriage, so that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the believers in respect of (the marriage of) the wives of their adopted sons when the latter have no desire to keep them (i.e. they have divorced them). And Allah\'s Command must be fulfilled. "

This is the verse you mentioned. . . . .

Edit: I shall try find that thread Insha`Allaah. . . . . . .

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

I am sorry if I missed the questions can you just remind me by telling me the post number and I will offer a response (tomorrow). Blessings

No worries, this is the post "The fact is a Prophet is meant to be an example for there people, My Q to a Christian would be do you believe Prophets existed, and if so could you mention names of prophets, and mention there jobs, what "Prophets" are exactly meant to do?
It would let one understand the truth about the faith more. . .

Insha`Allaah that could be a positive start. . . . " If you miss this, its on "page 3"

I know you all have gone on to other things, but I really was curious about the questions I asked in this earlier post. I didn't ask them to debate, just to be educated. Can anyone help me to understand the use of (parenthetical) commentary in the translations of the Qur'an and hadith?


Muslimah 4 Life, Hugo provided the same answer I would have to your question already:

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

in Christian circles the term [prophet] is understood broadly in two ways. The first is a prophet m[a]y 'foretell' the future and in the Bible this is often expressed as warnings usually associated with falling away from the faith. Secondly, a prophet may simply explain or 'forth-tell' the message and therefore call people to God. So in the first sense we would think of someone like Isaiah or Jeremiah as prophets and in the second sense anyone can be a prophet.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi

It isn't reasonable to believe that Solomon never existed. But it does stretch credulity to imagine that he practiced magic on a grand scale and had armies of birds and spirit creatures in his court. Also the Israelites did not invade other nations just because they practiced idolatry (as Solomon is depicted as doing). They tended to keep within their own borders. And the description of the action of Solomon in sending a bird to make a declaration with threat of war, does not sound convincing. Nobody reading such a narrative today would take it seriously if it wasn't in the Qur'an.

I'm not sure where your coming from here - you'll have to show me where solomon uses the bird to declare war? You do know the use of birds to send messeges.

I find it hypocritical coming from a christian that TODAY people find it hard to believe so it must be false idea - as Jesus pbuh was born from a virgin, was God and died according to christians - people have problems with these today as well so they must be false?

Solomon (pbuh) practiced magic where in Islam does it say that as well?

format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77

Ofcourse, I think by reading the whole hadith its fairly obvious:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The Prophet Abraham emigrated with Sarah and entered a village where there was a king or a tyrant. (The king) was told that Abraham had entered (the village) accompanied by a woman who was one of the most charming women. So, the king sent for Abraham and asked, 'O Abraham! Who is this lady accompanying you?' Abraham replied, 'She is my sister (i.e. in religion).' Then Abraham returned to her and said, 'Do not contradict my statement, for I have informed them that you are my sister. By Allah, there are no true believers on this land except you and I.' Then Abraham sent her to the king. When the king got to her, she got up and performed ablution, prayed and said, 'O Allah! If I have believed in You and Your Apostle, and have saved my private parts from everybody except my husband, then please do not let this pagan overpower me.' On that the king fell in a mood of agitation and started moving his legs. Seeing the condition of the king, Sarah said, 'O Allah! If he should die, the people will say that I have killed him.' The king regained his power, and proceeded towards her but she got up again and performed ablution, prayed and said, 'O Allah! If I have believed in You and Your Apostle and have kept my private parts safe from all except my husband, then please do not let this pagan overpower me.' The king again fell in a mood of agitation and started moving his legs. On seeing that state of the king, Sarah said, 'O Allah! If he should die, the people will say that I have killed him.' The king got either two or three attacks, and after recovering from the last attack he said, 'By Allah! You have sent a satan to me. Take her to Abraham and give her Ajar.' So she came back to Abraham and said, 'Allah humiliated the pagan and gave us a slavegirl for service." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 34, Number 420)

here's another hadith regarding this;

Narrated Abu Huraira:
Abraham did not tell a lie except on three occasions. Twice for the Sake of Allah when he said, "I am sick," and he said, "(I have not done this but) the big idol has done it." The (third was) that while Abraham and Sarah (his wife) were going (on a journey) they passed by (the territory of) a tyrant. Someone said to the tyrant, "This man (i.e. Abraham) is accompanied by a very charming lady." So, he sent for Abraham and asked him about Sarah saying, "Who is this lady?" Abraham said, "She is my sister." Abraham went to Sarah and said, "O Sarah! There are no believers on the surface of the earth except you and I. This man asked me about you and I have told him that you are my sister, so don't contradict my statement." The tyrant then called Sarah and when she went to him, he tried to take hold of her with his hand, but (his hand got stiff and) he was confounded. He asked Sarah. "Pray to Allah for me, and I shall not harm you." So Sarah asked Allah to cure him and he got cured. He tried to take hold of her for the second time, but (his hand got as stiff as or stiffer than before and) was more confounded. He again requested Sarah, "Pray to Allah for me, and I will not harm you." Sarah asked Allah again and he became all right. He then called one of his guards (who had brought her) and said, "You have not brought me a human being but have brought me a devil." The tyrant then gave Hajar as a girl-servant to Sarah. Sarah came back (to Abraham) while he was praying. Abraham, gesturing with his hand, asked, "What has happened?" She replied, "Allah has spoiled the evil plot of the infidel (or immoral person) and gave me Hajar for service." (Abu Huraira then addressed his listeners saying, "That (Hajar) was your mother, O Bani Ma-is-Sama (i.e. the Arabs, the descendants of Ishmael, Hajar's son)." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 578)

The account shows that when Abraham said "She is my sister" he was telling his third lie. So if it wasn't a true statement anyway why is there the need to take this to mean his "figurative" sister?

According to the hadith, when Abraham then reported to Sarah: "I have told him that you are my sister" he was only informing her of the lie that he had told. He wasn't telling Sarah that she was his sister.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi

The account shows that when Abraham said "She is my sister" he was telling his third lie. So if it wasn't a true statement anyway why is there the need to take this to mean his "figurative" sister?

According to the hadith, when Abraham then reported to Sarah: "I have told him that you are my sister" he was only informing her of the lie that he had told. He wasn't telling Sarah that she was his sister.

why? because in his wisdom he was protecting his wife

and yes he informed her of what he told them, he wasn't stating the obvious when he told her she was his sister

format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77

I only describe fact, muslims are far from perfect - but a heck of a lot better than christians in adhering to the commands of their own scriptures and prophets from god.

You are deluded and arrogant. You simply mistake ritual for striving after holiness and assume that washing in the right way or saying your prayers make you 'good' but the Bible makes it very plain that what God wants is as Jesus put it "to love God with all your heart, and soul and mind and your neighbour as yourself. Yours is a self-righteousness and it is obvious you have no concept of sin and how it afflicts us because you see yourself as better than others and that to God is an abomination. Just read this story and perhaps your will see what a debt you owe to God not on any supposed righteousness of your own.

Luke 18:8-15 (NIV) - To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted".

I accept that Jesus died for my sins and so God in some inexplicable way conveys his righteousness to us and we accept it because we know we can never be good enough no matter what we do and we spend our whole life seeking after God and righteousness. Your fallacy is that you pretend that as long as you follow certain rules and rituals that somehow God will owe you salvation.In Isaiah 1:11-15 (NIV) we read how God feels about the self-righteous

"The multitude of your sacrifices— what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you, this trampling of my courts? Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations— I cannot bear your evil assemblies. Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts my soul hates. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide my eyes from you; even if you offer many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood

format_quote Originally Posted by мυѕℓιмαн 4 ℓιfє

No worries, this is the post "The fact is a Prophet is meant to be an example for there people, My Q to a Christian would be do you believe Prophets existed, and if so could you mention names of prophets, and mention there jobs, what "Prophets" are exactly meant to do?
It would let one understand the truth about the faith more. . .

1. My view would be that a prophet is meant to bring a message from God, that is his or her primary duty. It may be that their life is an examples to others but their example is NOT the same as saying that God wants you to do as they do or did. Biblically speaking we know very little about what say Jesus did but we do know what he taught and that for me is what is important. Any prophet would be set in a time so what he did would in some way be constrained by it so it does not follow that his or her example is set in stone for all time. Mohammed as you will know consummated his marriage to Aeshia when she was 9 years old and one can hardly consider that an act to be emulated? So biblically the only call is to follow the teaching and emulate faith and in general nothing else.

2. Yes prophets existed and still exist and I said in an earlier post they may be of the foretelling (speaking of the future) or forth-telling (teaching or explaining)kinds. Notable Biblical examples are Isaiah and Jeremiah and in the Bible their prophesies cover 123 chapters.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

1. My view would be that a prophet is meant to bring a message from God, that is his or her primary duty. It may be that their life is an examples to others but their example is NOT the same as saying that God wants you to do as they do or did. Biblically speaking we know very little about what say Jesus did but we do know what he taught and that for me is what is important. Any prophet would be set in a time so what he did would in some way be constrained by it so it does not follow that his or her example is set in stone for all time. Mohammed as you will know consummated his marriage to Aeshia when she was 9 years old and one can hardly consider that an act to be emulated? So biblically the only call is to follow the teaching and emulate faith and in general nothing else.

2. Yes prophets existed and still exist and I said in an earlier post they may be of the foretelling (speaking of the future) or forth-telling (teaching or explaining)kinds. Notable Biblical examples are Isaiah and Jeremiah and in the Bible their prophesies cover 123 chapters.

Actually i disagree here, " It may be that their life is an examples to others but their example is NOT the same as saying that God wants you to do as they do or did. God sent the messenger so he could do what God commands him to do, hence "The Commandmants" and the followeres of the commandmants, what are they meant to be?

You seem to be talking about Muhammad (SAW) and his marriages, whereas Aisha (ra) had no problem against the marriage, so what exactly is your point and your problem? Also Mary (as) was very young when she married Joseph,and you dont consider than an act to be "emulated" lol, and also it was quite normal back then for marriage to be at such a young age.
Im not gonna give no evidence, since you`ve read about the Quraan and seem to know "everything" about Islaam, i cant really say you wont know anything about your own faith then.

"So biblically the only call is to follow the teaching and emulate faith and in general nothing else." you can say that again, coz you made no point!

And no prophets dont exist today, if so do you have any evidence?
Seriously why are you on this forum? If you are here to learn about Islaam then do so, but if not, why are you here? Coz i dont see anyway your learning about Islaam here yet so far.

The geekyness
Peace

you reminded me of this verse in Qur`aan my respected brother:

"Have you not seen those who claim sanctity for themselves. Nay - but Allah sanctifies whom He pleases, and they will not be dealt with injustice even equal to the extent of a Fatila (A scalish thread in the long slit of a date-stone). (49)"

Surat Anisaa

it is right that Allah says:

"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers. (85) " Surat Aal Imraan

and Islam means; the complete surrendering and submision only to Allah and to have peace whith whatsoever Allah wills and worshipping Him alone whith no partners ; believing that there is no god but Allah Who deserves to be worshipped alone...(this is the meaning of Islam)...

but it is really wrong to tell others that they are not good or bad (good and bad are everywhere, we are all sining and seeking Allah`s forgiveness , May Allah forgive us Ameen)...

we are not here to talk about people them selves but to teach them whats wrong and whats right according Allah`s commandments religion and Islmaic moralism...By Allah`s willing...

I have read all the posts and it is really clear that some of our respected Christian brothers not understanding the verses of the Qur`aan...

all the followers of the three divine religions know that Allah Is The Most Just , The Source of Justice and Allah Has forbidden injustice to himself...so, it is impossible for Allah to order His slaves to be unjust with others...

Allah says in Qur`aan:

"Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity. (8)"

Surat Al Mumtahanh

as Muslims it is forbidden for us to kill innocent people but only to fight in combat with who fights against us and thats it...all the verses in Qur`aan which are talking about fight have their stories and if you read in Sunnah you will find those stories and everything will be clear...by Allah`s willing...

and about the prohets (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all) we as Muslims believe that those whom Allah has chose to be His Messengers and prophets who Allah sent to teach His slaves and servants how to worship Him right and ordered us to follow their steps in everything He had taught to them ...are impossible to commit such ugly crimes and guilts...

Allah gave them the Books and Hikmah ( the understanding of Allah`s law) and Allah had taken the covenant of the prophets to hold and carry out everything in what he had given to them :

" And (remember) when Allah took the Covenant of the Prophets, saying: "Take whatever I gave you from the Book and Hikmah (understanding of the Laws of Allah, etc.), and afterwards there will come to you a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) confirming what is with you; you must, then, believe in him and help him." Allah said: "Do you agree (to it) and will you take up My Covenant (which I conclude with you)?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness; and I am with you among the witnesses (for this)." (81) Then whoever turns away after this, they are the Fasiqun (rebellious: those who turn away from Allah's Obedience). (82) Do they seek other than the religion of Allah (the true Islamic Monotheism worshipping none but Allah Alone), while to Him submitted all creatures in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly. And to Him shall they all be returned. (83)

Surat Aal Imraan

Then how to disobey Allah with such things? They are The Most Pure amongst people they know Allah more than us and know how painful the punishment of Allah more than any living and non they are the chosen people Who The Most Perfect chose... I don`t know what to say more to make you understand...but Allah Is The One Who Guides and Misguides ,it is not in my hand to make you understand but in Allah`s...Laa ilaha illa Allah...

we don`t want to be enemy for anyone we only want to teach the message of Allah which we believe in and know that it is the divine truth from our Lord above all skies...

we don`t want to misguide you ,no I swear by The One Who Has our souls in His Hand but we are following the teachings of Allah which came to us thro His Messengers and Prophets ( peace and blessings of Allah be upon them) and one of those teachings is to love for others what we love for our selves and we believe that the true happiness won`t be but by surrendering and submitting for The Lord of the world thats why we want you to understand Islam , not to be called Muslims but to be happy and to be real slaves and servants of Allah as we believe...

I am sad because some of my brothers and sisters in Islam sometimes let their anger answers instead of the wisdom of Islam...and that ruins everything and make others confused filling their hearts with hate and anger too...

May Allah guide us all to him before standing for reckoning in the day of Judgement Ameeeeeeen

and I know that when our brothers and sisters from other beliefs talk with us about their religions , they want us to be guided as they believe... I know this and I respect it...

May Allah give you the good of this life and of the hereafter Ameeeeeeeen

please, try to talk about the things our religions share and how to benefit us in this life and herefater... not to fight and be upset of eachother...

take care brothers and sisters no matter who you are where you are and what you are...

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Can anyone help me to understand the use of (parenthetical) commentary in the translations of the Qur'an and hadith?

I am so sorry my respected and noble brother, I forgot to answer you...please forgive me...

commentary in the translations of the Qur'an and hadith used to make you understand the meaning of the verses, in Arabic there are many words which we can not find the exact meaning for it in English or any other langauge... and these (parenthetical) commentary are not existed in the original Arabic Qur`aan...

may Allah open for you the door of success in this life and in the hereafter and lead your way to the path of the endless happiness my respected brother...Ameeeen

leaving you under Allah`s sight and care...

format_quote Originally Posted by мυѕℓιмαн 4 ℓιfє

You seem to be talking about Muhammad (SAW) and his marriages, whereas Aisha (ra) had no problem against the marriage, so what exactly is your point and your problem? Also Mary (as) was very young when she married Joseph,and you dont consider than an act to be "emulated" lol, and also it was quite normal back then for marriage to be at such a young age.

The point being made was that no matter how honoured a prophet or any one is there is no command to do as they did. Aisha has been discussed elsewhere but a nine year old girl could hardly "have no problem" and although there is some value in contextualizing something there is always the danger that in doing so we gloss over gross wrongdoings. In terms of Mary the mother of Jesus we don't know for sure how old she was but most think her age would be in the range 12 - 17. It is true that marriage at this age was allowed but what was forbidden by Jewish law was a wide age range difference between the parties

"So biblically the only call is to follow the teaching and emulate faith and in general nothing else." you can say that again, coz you made no point!

What else can there be but to follow God's teachings which include commands and offer him our prayers and praise - should we follow men or God?

format_quote Originally Posted by black

And no prophets dont exist today, if so do you have any evidence?

I gave two definitions and today it is quite possible that we have an unusually gifted teacher who can explain, interpret and apply what God has said and we might, though it would be unusual, call them prophets. Your definition if I read it rightly simply says there were sent to help so that might apply to almost anyone. If I have this wrong then explain your definition

Seriously why are you on this forum? If you are here to learn about Islaam then do so, but if not, why are you here? Coz i dont see anyway your learning about Islaam here yet so far.

The forum is open to all as far as I know - why are you here? How does one learn anything but by a process of reading and critical questioning - perhaps you think Islam should not be subject to questions?